BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 258

[RF20Lennon]

So for everyone who thinks Superman is going to die... how does he get resurrected? Or does he just stay dead in your theory?

Didn't actually die. Went into deep coma for a few months.

 

[Binker]

Didn't actually die. Went into deep coma for a few months.

You mean like.....Kirk in Star Trek into Dumbness?

 

[Herolee10]

On another note, it's a shame that EMPIRE and other promotional materials for this film don't use these images of the Trinity to promote the film better.

 

[AbradolfLincler]

You're all missing my point Superman wouldn't be on the side lines his arc would be important maybe his body was stolen by Darkseid and he's on apokolips where he eventually gets free, or he's lost most of his powers and we see him dealing with living without them, even have a moment similar to for a man who has everything where he gives up the life he always wanted in order to be there for those who believe in him what a wrap up to the first trilogy.

Superman doesn't have to be kicking butt there's more to a hero than that I know a lot of people have forgotten but it's true. Yes having all the heroes together is awesome but you want to know something cooler actually giving all of them a story or at least most of them, what point is having all the heroes together if you don't do anything with them character wise?

Having them all together IS doing something with them. I FIRMLY believe that it's WAAAAAY too early to do something like that.

The dynamic between the team won't even be established yet, and it wouldn't have NEARLY the emotional impact it would need for an arc like that to be successful.

Justice League 1 has to establish the group dynamic and how each of these characters work together. It's important to show us what kind of bond they have, and what it takes to create a degree of cohesion.

I mean, Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg will still have to be fully introduced, and it will feel flat if we're introduced to those characters without the full League being there.

They will also have absolutely no emotional stake in rescuing Superman, so that would be a weakness IMO.

I really hope they just introduce the League while getting us invested both in the individual characters and the team as a unit. That way, the conflict with Darkseid in the first movie will be way more satisfying, and an arc like the one you described could be done later and will feel like it's been earned.

 

[RF20Lennon]

You mean like.....Kirk in Star Trek into Dumbness?

Yeah but they think Supes is dead and put him in a coffin and stuff

 

[Herolee10]

So for everyone who thinks Superman is going to die... how does he get resurrected? Or does he just stay dead in your theory?

I don't think anyone here, well other than Tobias, thinks or believes that Superman is going to stay dead.

As mentioned before, the issue that people (like myself) have with pulling the "death" cliche on Superman is the timing of it all.

Superman's only been in one film prior to this one and the DCEU is getting prepped where it can finally unveil the Justice League to fans and audiences alike.

Not only would the "Death" arc/route have minimal meeting if done now, but it would end BvS on a downer note while severely limiting his screen time and interaction with characters in the first ever Justice League film.

When Thor was stranded in Asgard at the end of his first solo film, they completely went around explaining the full details of how he came back to Earth, which allowed him to have some time in developing relationships with the other members. However, he was still limited to how much time he could spend with the other members.

I seriously doubt that if Superman is killed in BvS, that they would gloss over the details of how he comes back alive as quickly as they did with Thor's return, thus making Superman an literal one act character in "Justice League".

At this point, I think the only people that are okay with this are the ones that are bigger fans of Batman, who already know that the proverbial keys to the kingdom await for their character.

 

[matt47]

On another note, it's a shame that EMPIRE and other promotional materials for this film don't use these images of the Trinity to promote the film better.

Yeah Bats look so much better in that pose.

 

[BH/HHH]

As I said in the HC thread...

Well there was that rumoured early draft ending where

Spoiler

Superman flew Doomsday into the sun and they thought he might be dead only to re-emerge later

I'd be happy with that just not happy if he dies, it's to soon.

 

[Herolee10]

Yeah Bats look so much better in that pose.

Everyone looks better in that shot. Why Empire doesn't go with those shots, let alone why Warner Bros didn't use them for the Theatrical Poster(s) is beyond me.

 

[matt47]

As I said in the HC thread...

Well there was that rumoured early draft ending where

Spoiler

Superman flew Doomsday into the sun and they thought he might be dead only to re-emerge later

I'd be happy with that just not happy if he dies, it's to soon.

That's what I think will happen. People think he is dead only for a bit, but then he comes.

 

[Dr doomsday]

Superman being mortal would've absolutely been earned not every arc needs ten movies of build up two usually is enough, also about the team dynamic I think people are missing an important detail Superman mainly interacts with Batman and Wonder Woman he interacts with the others but not as often, and you could do that other ways. Like have one of them end up at the Kent farm maybe their injured or they're searching for a sign of Superman, and they meet a powerless Clark for added effect if it was say cyborg or Hal, he lost his ring and feels powerless, Cyborg feels like a freak and you have this one scene where one or more are just talking to Clark and they don't know who he is, they could both inspire each other in some way.

No having all of them together is meaningless if nothing is done character wise, you can have the team come together and explore them as characters as well it should not be one or the other. This movie should not be the avengers movie it should contrast it like DC in general does. Seeing the league together for the first time is great but it's meaningless if the movies paper thin on both plot and character.

 

[Angel0fDeath]

As I said in the HC thread...

Well there was that rumoured early draft ending where

Spoiler

Superman flew Doomsday into the sun and they thought he might be dead only to re-emerge later

I'd be happy with that just not happy if he dies, it's to soon.

Yep, I like that as well. Make people think he's dead, but then he emerges from the skies. Que the "Oh, great! More Jesus symbolism. " comments.

 

[TheRedWraith]

Part of me wants there to somehow be a crossover between the DCEU and the MCU to see Affleck's Batman vs Evans' Captain America. Hell, the Justice League vs Avengers, period.

Cap is very superhuman in the mcu, and without a kryptonite style weakness I would doubt Batman, who is still a human would be able to beat him. It would be fun to see, but Batman would lose.

 

[AbradolfLincler]

I don't think anyone here, well other than Tobias, thinks or believes that Superman is going to stay dead.

As mentioned before, the issue that people (like myself) have with pulling the "death" cliche on Superman is the timing of it all.

Superman's only been in one film prior to this one and the DCEU is getting prepped where it can finally unveil the Justice League to fans and audiences alike.

Not only would the "Death" arc/route have minimal meeting if done now, but it would end BvS on a downer note while severely limiting his screen time and interaction with characters in the first ever Justice League film.

When Thor was stranded in Asgard at the end of his first solo film, they completely went around explaining the full details of how he came back to Earth, which allowed him to have some time in developing relationships with the other members. However, he was still limited to how much time he could spend with the other members.

I seriously doubt that if Superman is killed in BvS, that they would gloss over the details of how he comes back alive as quickly as they did with Thor's return, thus making Superman an literal one act character in "Justice League".

At this point, I think the only people that are okay with this are the ones that are bigger fans of Batman, who already know that the proverbial keys to the kingdom await for their character.

I'm a bigger Batman fan, but even I think that killing Supes off at this point would be stupid. There'd be very little emotional weight behind it, and nobody will take it the slightest bit seriously.

I really don't think it'd work, and Snyder should avoid gambles like this. I like Snyder, but his gambles fail to pay off way too often with critics. This universe needs all the critical appeal it can get at this point.

I want a ****ing successful DC cinematic universe, damn it!

 

[BH/HHH]

That's what I think will happen. People think he is dead only for a bit, but then he comes.

Err

Yep, I like that as well. Make people think he's dead, but then he emerges from the skies. Que the "Oh, great! More Jesus symbolism. " comments.

Haha, I think I'm one of the only people who isn't fussed about the Jesus imagery. I never even think about it really.

 

[MAN O STEEL]

Cap is very superhuman in the mcu, and without a kryptonite style weakness I would doubt Batman, who is still a human would be able to beat him. It would be fun to see, but Batman would lose.

So Batman can take on Superman, a god like being but you think Batman couldn't take Captain America? Hahahahahaha

 

[matt47]

Err





Haha, I think I'm one of the only people who isn't fussed about the Jesus imagery. I never even think about it really.

You heard me. t:

 

[rogbngp]

Err





Haha, I think I'm one of the only people who isn't fussed about the Jesus imagery. I never even think about it really.

Folks can think of it in Jungian terms as an archetype, if the pure religious symbolism bothers them in some way. In other words, one can study it from the frame of reference that religious symbols represent aspects of the human psyche. Snyder obviously seems to be acquainted with the thought of Joseph Campbell (he has repeatedly referenced using superheroes as modern mythology, and has a salient Campbell quote stitched across the chest of the JL's "chairman of the board," so I don't think this is a stretch).

 

[harryoscop]

Idk why, but I kinda liked it tbh. I remember when I got chills in the theater when Jor-El said "You can save her, Kal. You can save all of them." And then Superman does like a cross with beautiful cinematography and Zimmer score. haha. Love that moment. t:

 

[Astro13Zombie]

Yeah, I liked it too.

 

[AbradolfLincler]

Superman being mortal would've absolutely been earned not every arc needs ten movies of build up two usually is enough, also about the team dynamic I think people are missing an important detail Superman mainly interacts with Batman and Wonder Woman he interacts with the others but not as often, and you could do that other ways. Like have one of them end up at the Kent farm maybe their injured or they're searching for a sign of Superman, and they meet a powerless Clark for added effect if it was say cyborg or Hal, he lost his ring and feels powerless, Cyborg feels like a freak and you have this one scene where one or more are just talking to Clark and they don't know who he is, they could both inspire each other in some way.

No having all of them together is meaningless if nothing is done character wise, you can have the team come together and explore them as characters as well it should not be one or the other. This movie should not be the avengers movie it should contrast it like DC in general does. Seeing the league together for the first time is great but it's meaningless if the movies paper thin on both plot and character.

I absolutely disagree. There's no reason at all to kill off Superman at this point. None.

This movie is called Dawn of Justice because it will culminate in the justification of forming a team purposed toward battling threats too big for any one hero.

It's clear that by the end of the film, the foundations for that will already be there. Superman dying will add NOTHING to that desired outcome. In fact, it could very well detract from it. It just wouldn't make sense for the film to build up to the dawn of justice only for the narrative to veer off on some unnecessary tangent that involves Superman dying. It's just not needed at this point.

And who said TEN movies? I mean, they could do an MOS sequel right after Justice League and pull it off. Such an arc NEEDS to be done in a film where Superman is the sole focus. It's too personal a story for him.

I also strongly disagree with your opinion on the group dynamic. A Justice League film which INTRODUCES the Justice League in which a PIVOTAL member is missing for a significant part of the film just doesn't make sense, and it's COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY!

I mean, seriously... Why do we need Superman to die? What purpose would such a plot point serve in accomplishing the clear goals JL needs to accomplish as a film?

I REALLY doubt that's going to happen, and I doubt it because the filmmakers surely understand why the things that need to be done thematically can be done in a much simpler way without taking such a huge and meaningless risk.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Cap is very superhuman in the mcu, and without a kryptonite style weakness I would doubt Batman, who is still a human would be able to beat him. It would be fun to see, but Batman would lose.

Snyder's Batman appears to be a peak human much like his comic book counterpart. As such, his abilities are on par with or possibly even superior to that of MCU Cap. They're both meant to represent the pinnacle of human achievement. Batman, of course, became this way due to hard work on top of his already prodigious natural gifts. Cap, however, took the easy route with a chemical compound.

Make no mistake, though. In terms of physical prowess, what we're getting in BvS is basically the Batman of modern comics and Arkham games.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Why'd they have to kill Gandalf in Fellowship? He just came back in the Two Towers!

 

[AbradolfLincler]

Cap is very superhuman in the mcu, and without a kryptonite style weakness I would doubt Batman, who is still a human would be able to beat him. It would be fun to see, but Batman would lose.

What...? No...

If this Batman is as comic accurate as it seems to be, there's no reason to think Batman would lose to cap.

Batman vs Cap is one of those fantasy battles that have been debated for generations.

It's generally agreed that the two are near equals physically with Cap having the greater durability while Bats evens things out with his gadgets. This is even acknowledged in the crossover comics where Bruce and Steve meet, and they declare each other equals.

They are, of course, not canon, but it wasn't an accident that they were considered equals in both. The ongoing debate on this battle has LONG established this.

Seriously, I thought you'd be more familiar with comicbook lore than this considering you belong to this board.

Captain America is a super soldier, but it's been explained that the SSS did little more than universallyenhance his abilities to peak human levels while giving him a relatively (as compared to other famous characters with the ability) slow healing factor.

Batman is peak human. Everyone knows this. There are very few, if any, feats Cap boasts that Batman hasn't matched.

ANYWAY, the stamina and durability that Caps surely has over Batman because of his healing factor are negated by Batman's arsenal of gadgetry and superior hand to hand technique.

Also, he's arguably - I'd say definitely - a better tactician.

Anyway, as would most fans, I'd say ten battles between the two should see an even split of 5 victories for both.

Unless Bats had prep time, of course.

 

[PopeAdrian37th]

I think they could have Superman appear to die in the middle of the third act and end the movie with his funeral but having Bruce detect a heart beat coming from the grave. It would be an interesting flip of TDKR's ending. Follow this up next year with Supermans return in a late WW movie scene, and boom, you have him in position for forming the league a few months later.

If Batman can retire after the events of TDK, Superman can be temporarily disabled after his second movie too. Though I could see the "Synder copies Nolan" complaints coming instantly.