Transformers Allegories - Is Transformers propaganda?

[Boiiinng]

I think you missed the point of his post with the quote and went way off the deep end. He was using it to rebuttle your statement about self-reflection, not talking about Socrates himself, geez.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I think you missed the point of his post with the quote and went way off the deep end. He was using it to rebuttle your statement about self-reflection, not talking about Socrates himself, geez.

When Socrates was talking about "the unexamined life" he was talking coming to know about the world of the forms. Saying we all lived in a cave where our eyes were afixed on a screen (Plato's cave) watching shapes and images dance and tell us what to do. Pretty much, in today's world, television and movies would be indicative of these "shapes and images". So Socrates wanted one to, as an adult, lift oneself out of the cave. What he is suggesting, examining a cartoon and why we watch it, would be sophistry according to Socrates. Or making something unimportant or untrue seem important. So, no, his little snarky quip was misused.

And also my point was "it's ridiculous to examine why we like things as children with rationales we use as adults".

 

[blind_fury]

Socrates saying "an unexamined life isn't worth living" was not some code speak that was limited to existentialism. It applied to life and introspection in general.

Citizen Kane should've examined his life before he wasted it trying to be "grown up". You could learn a thing or two from that movie. Life isn't always about elitist pursuits or pointless social climbing. Sometimes the simpler things in life and dreams have greater value. Depends on the person really.

and Art is subjective meaning you have no right to tell someone their interpretation is wrong. So blow all that nonsense about your limited interpretation of G1 as the only correct interpretation out of your ass.

 

[KOLLUS]

transformers: the movie was about communism,
working man's machines trying to destroy the horrible military might of the government machines..
not to mention optimus was partially RED.

the 'citizen heroes' killing the 'army villans' was obvious

 

[blind_fury]

transformers: the movie was about communism,

You're thinking of the Smurfs.

 

[KOLLUS]

You're thinking of the Smurfs.

you're right!
megatron, murgatroyd.

we're through the looking glass here people.

 

[Boiiinng]

And also my point was "it's ridiculous to examine why we like things as children with rationales we use as adults".

Why?

 

[Eternalzero]

Like boobs.

Quote for the win!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Why?

Because when you're young, your brain is not as developed, you are not as mature. "when I was a child I thought as a child, now that I am a man I have no more use for childish things". Remember that phrase. You aren't a mature thinking adult at that age, why should you hold the decisions you made then to the same standards you do now? That's ridiculous.

 

[Cosmic]

Transformers was just like one big, huge, recruiting advertisement. You shouldn't need to critically analyze it or search for hidden meanings to recognize this. One observer referred to it as "p(r)opcornaganda." A friend of mine described it as "military fetishism."

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Socrates saying "an unexamined life isn't worth living" was not some code speak that was limited to existentialism. It applied to life and introspection in general.

It also implied that you shed yourself of the "cave". Have you ever read The Republic. Socrates said himself "you cannot examine things outside of yourself until you know thyself". Meaning examining Transformers is useless unless you fully know yourself, because inevitably you're projecting preconceived notions onto it.

Citizen Kane should've examined his life before he wasted it trying to be "grown up". You could learn a thing or two from that movie. Life isn't always about elitist pursuits or pointless social climbing. Sometimes the simpler things in life and dreams have greater value. Depends on the person really.

Seriously, stop. We've now compared Transformers to Socrates, Shakespeare and Rosebud from Citizen Kane. You guys are two posts away from a place in the looney bin. It's a f***ing toy commercial.

and Art is subjective meaning you have no right to tell someone their interpretation is wrong.

Yes I do. Especially when that interpretations is based on overstating plot points in a show apparently the interpreters know very little about.

So blow all that nonsense about your limited interpretation of G1 as the only correct interpretation out of your ass.

You're the one who keeps going back to the oil rig as if it were some sacrosanced, highly referenced, plot point in the show. And then claim what you post is for the fans when it's apparent you've maybe seen 5 episodes at all...and read none of the comics.

Elitist. So because I actually bothered to read the comics, watch the show, appretiate it for WHAT it was not what some looney fan whose seen one or two episodes says I'm elitist. Blow that out your ass.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Transformers was just like one big, huge, recruiting advertisement. You shouldn't need to critically analyze it or search for hidden meanings to recognize this. One observer referred to it as "p(r)opcornaganda." A friend of mine described it as "military fetishism."

They're talking about the show (and the movie), to which I would add Transformers was just and has always been (with minor exceptions) a big toy commercial. Even the original movie killed Optimus, Prowl, Ironhide and most of the season 1 and 2 cast due to the fact that they were no longer to be offered as toys. This also was the motivation behind leaving Bumblebee, Cliffjumper and Jazz alive. It may or may not have been fun to watch, but often, as one reviewer noted "The toy commercials were as fun as the show itself". It entertained on a very shallow level. Any critical anaylsis of Transformers the movie or the show reveals a show whose plot was littered with inconsistencies, little to no character development, and often recycled cliche' plots from other shows. It was basic, but backed by a stellar toyline that ultimately proved more popular than the show itself.

Jump to 2007, the new movie was critically definitely better than the original show, albeit still very shallow. It had the typical Michael Bay, pro American, pro commercialized, aspect that are prevelant in all his films. The typical popcorny scenes and "snap and pop" dialogue. The typical product placements, and typical high octane feel. To compare it to Citizen Kane is laughable, to compare the original show to it is borderline insane. And both of those comparisons stop dead when one is forced to provide some actual proof for their claims.

 

[Boiiinng]

Because when you're young, your brain is not as developed, you are not as mature. "when I was a child I thought as a child, now that I am a man I have no more use for childish things". Remember that phrase. You aren't a mature thinking adult at that age, why should you hold the decisions you made then to the same standards you do now? That's ridiculous.

Your generalization is ridiculous. There are just as many mature-thinking children as there are immature-thinking "adults." A child can ask questions that a wise-man cannot answer. Remember that phrase.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Your generalization is ridiculous. There are just as many mature-thinking children as there are immature-thinking "adults." A child can ask questions that a wise-man cannot answer. Remember that phrase.

I don't think anyone, even myself (who watched TFTM last night) considers watching a toy cartoon from the eighties remotely mature.

 

[Timstuff]

Like boobs.

Optimus agrees.

 

[Boiiinng]

I don't think anyone, even myself (who watched TFTM last night) considers watching a toy cartoon from the eighties remotely mature.

Last time I checked, they didn't sell 30 foot tall robots in the stores. You're talking about two different things. Watching something and discussing it's allegoric merits are two different actions. Why someone watches a cartoon is where you can argue your points, but you can't discount someone just because they watch something.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Last time I checked, they didn't sell 30 foot tall robots in the stores.

Whether the toys were 30 feet or 6 inches is immaterial. They were the toys being represented on screen. So yes, they sold those robots in stores...every.single.last.one. (with a few exceptions...Unicron and Arcee for example failed testing and never could be released)

You're talking about two different things. Watching something and discussing it's allegoric merits are two different actions.

If you're going to discuss the allegoric merits of Transformers I would hope you're watching it. Even if this was a Socrates thread, I would still be saying this had no one here read Socrates recently. If you aren't watching Transformers then you are, as I think most of this camp is, pulling stuff out of your ass to support preconceived notions you have about the show.

Why someone watches a cartoon is where you can argue your points, but you can't discount someone just because they watch something.

I'm not, I'm discounting you because it's quiet apparent you don't. Or if you do you watch it through very clouded vision and then only talk about your preconceived notions. It strikes me as odd that neither you nor most of the "Transformers was brillant" folks can name only one or two episodes, rehash the same small examples over and over, and can never seem to provide quotes or details to back up their claim. It's fine to discuss something, but not when you know nothing about it.

I mean we had one discussion where you claimed I was elistist for reading the comic when I WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT. Showing just how much you "watched" that show...so much so when I talked about IT you had no idea. So discuss the merits of your imaginary Transformers show that never aired.

 

[Boiiinng]

I mean we had one discussion where you claimed I was elistist for reading the comic when I WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT. Showing just how much you "watched" that show...so much so when I talked about IT you had no idea. So discuss the merits of your imaginary Transformers show that never aired.

You mean this?

Then how come they often looted other planets? In the comics they didn't leave Cybertron for fuel, they left it to save it from an asteroid shower, we've been through this.

We were comparing the cartoons and the movie. Leave your elitist comic discussion to yourself please. Mainstream fans never cared about the comics anyway. Way to miss the whole point of the thread.

But I really don't care anymore. I mean, it's not like we're going to change each other's minds here. Do I have a selective memory? Sure, I latch on to things that matter more to me than those that don't. To me, it's better to know a little of everything than a lot of one thing, especially these days. And unlike what you said about yourself, I know art, and Transformers was a waste of film. And no amount of comparison to any previous incarnation or allegorical support will change that. So, kick back and enjoy it if you can, but I'll be out filling my worthless mind with craft made from sterner stuff.

 

[Mr. Socko]

to the OP



lol wut?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

But I really don't care anymore. I mean, it's not like we're going to change each other's minds here.

Probably not, but there is a reason for that.

Do I have a selective memory? Sure, I latch on to things that matter more to me than those that don't. To me, it's better to know a little of everything than a lot of one thing, especially these days.

Maybe if we are talking about a Liberal Arts education or the value of having good foundations for real world jobs, you'd be right. But we aren't. We are talking about a fandom. People on this board often play advocate just to play advocate.

And unlike what you said about yourself, I know art, and Transformers was a waste of film. And no amount of comparison to any previous incarnation or allegorical support will change that. So, kick back and enjoy it if you can, but I'll be out filling my worthless mind with craft made from sterner stuff.

See here is the problem, you were never gonna like that film. Why? Because as you said, you have a selective, and worse, nostalgia fuelled memory of the show. You've built it up so much in your head that no reinterpretation will EVER please you. And you were convinced from months back you were going to HATE that movie. No surprise, you did.

I got news for you, G1 isn't coming back. They may reissue toys, they may recycle names, they may even re air the episodes in syndication. But that show is gone. And that comic is gone. Transformers (G1) wasn't perfect, it wasn't deep, it wasn't adult, and it wasn't progressive...I can end any and all debate on that question right here. It failed, it was critically bashed, it's movie made 6 million total, and it's show couldn't compete with other cartoons ultimately. It's toyline proved more popular and more beloved than the show itself. Those toys were what made that show popular. If that show had been backed by a sh***y toyline, you guys wouldn't even breath it's name. But it wasn't, so people think it was great.

But it's been around for twenty three years, and it's gotten better. The shows have gotten better. The toys have gotten better and more advanced. The marketing and sales have gotten better. And now we have a Live Action film that has grossed almost 225 million domestic. On top of that the user reviews for it are great, and everyone seems to enjoy it. Everyone but you.

You see when you build these otherwise meaningless properties up in your head you see any change, any shift, any advancement as an insult to you. You take this series more than personally. You have this little box you put it in where you get to say "that's Transformers". But you don't own Transformers.

 

[CFlash]

Those toys were what made that show popular. If that show had been backed by a sh***y toyline, you guys wouldn't even breath it's name. But it wasn't, so people think it was great.

I never collected the toys.

 

[Mr. Socko]

lol wut?

 

[CFlash]

And also my point was "it's ridiculous to examine why we like things as children with rationales we use as adults".

Bunk! It is totally worthwhile to think about why some kids, for instance, might gravitate to D&D and Lord of the Rings and whatever while others, like me, gravited to stuff like Transformers, then Star Trek as a teen, then politics and philosophy in college.

I have a daughter. And I find how she picks and chooses what she likes extremely fascinating. Sometimes because *I* don't get it (Pokemon, for instance), sometimes because I'm surprised by the maturity level (Miyazaki movies) and other times because I think she shuts out other things I think she should be open to.

If you think Transformers was devoid of any merit then that's fine. That's wholey your opinion. And that's all it is.

P.S.
I was a T.A. and group instructor in college in a class that was entirely about The Republic. I would have failed you. Your snarky reply to my quote is misused. The Socrates of The Republic is a wholey different person arguing a wholly different point than the Socrates of The Apology (which is where my quote is from). That's your problem... trivia knowledge without having abstract understanding.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

P.S.
I was a T.A. and group instructor in college in a class that was entirely about The Republic. I would have failed you. Your snarky reply to my quote is misused. The Socrates of The Republic is a wholey different person arguing a wholly different point than the Socrates of The Apology (which is where my quote is from). That's your problem... trivia knowledge without having abstract understanding.

He also talked in that of "making the weaker argument the stronger" which is what you blatantly do when you quote things of merit and place it next to a children's cartoon you know next to nothing about (you even said yourself you've only seen some of the first season...and dropped out after the movie). And I got A's in all my philosophy classes thank you very much.

You might be a T.A., but you've got your head so far up your ass when it comes to Transformers you can't even think straight. Socrates is not even on the same level. Get a life. You had a passing interest at best before this movie came out and it shows. Now you overstate points like it's your job. If you were my student I'd fail you for taking small and debateable points about things and drawing ENTIRE generalizations out of them.

You realize you've argued things that are absurd on here. Do you realize that? You've argued a gun touting character based on John Wayne was a hippie pacifist. You've argued the Transformers fought over oil, when they didn't. You've argued that Megatron didn't want to take over the Universe when HE SAID HE DID. I get it, you didn't watch the show that much.

If you were a TA, I feel sorry for your college. You need PROOF to back up claims. Quoting one line from Socrates ain't worth sh** if you don't understand overarching themes. And you don't. You understand small things that you overexpand into overarching themes. So much so you missed the entire forrest.

Notice how when I debate you I don't pull from one episode I pull from many, often 5 or 6. Encyclopedic knowledge isn't a bad thing, I am not stating trivia. I am using examples. That's something IMPORTANT when ILLUSTRATING a point. All you do is speculate of "what ifs" involving the small things you remember vaguely from a show you barely watch. Great, you're a real credit to Socrates

It's fine to build things up in your head. But Plato would tell you your in a cave, a deep dark cave.

 

[CFlash]

He also talked in that of "making the weaker argument the stronger" which is what you blatantly do when you quote things of merit and place it next to a children's cartoon you know next to nothing about (you even said yourself you've only seen some of the first season...and dropped out after the movie). And I got A's in all my philosophy classes thank you very much.

You might be a T.A., but you've got your head so far up your ass when it comes to Transformers you can't even think straight. Socrates is not even on the same level. Get a life. You had a passing interest at best before this movie came out and it shows. Now you overstate points like it's your job. If you were my student I'd fail you for taking small and debateable points about things and drawing ENTIRE generalizations out of them.

You realize you've argued things that are absurd on here. Do you realize that? You've argued a gun touting character based on John Wayne was a hippie pacifist. You've argued the Transformers fought over oil, when they didn't. You've argued that Megatron didn't want to take over the Universe when HE SAID HE DID. I get it, you didn't watch the show that much.

If you were a TA, I feel sorry for your college. You need PROOF to back up claims. Quoting one line from Socrates ain't worth sh** if you don't understand overarching themes. And you don't. You understand small things that you overexpand into overarching themes. So much so you missed the entire forrest.

Notice how when I debate you I don't pull from one episode I pull from many, often 5 or 6. Encyclopedic knowledge isn't a bad thing, I am not stating trivia. I am using examples. That's something IMPORTANT when ILLUSTRATING a point. All you do is speculate of "what ifs" involving the small things you remember vaguely from a show you barely watch. Great, you're a real credit to Socrates

It's fine to build things up in your head. But Plato would tell you your in a cave, a deep dark cave.

There's your problem. You make things bigger than they are. I never argued that Transformers- nor any cartoon- was on the same level with Socrates. Nor did I ever say they fought solely for oil. Nor did I say Megatron didn't want to rule the Universe. I mean, really, you repeatedly demonstrate a lack of paying attention. You pick and choose what you want to comment on to make yourself feel smart and completely ignoring the larger point being made.