Transformers is not just a cartoon from the 80s...and other justifications

[nosebleed.]

This is to those who are mostly new here. You are walking into a pretty divided forum here with extremists on both sides. I'm not trying to scare you off but just to get a few points straight before you post what everyone else posts over and over again.

These are examples of what almost every new person who favors this movie are posting in the threads:

1. "Transformers is just a dated cartoon, what's the big deal about updating and changing it?"

Refer to title of the thread. Transformers is much more than just a cartoon. There are over 20+ years of comic books, books, graphic novels AND quite a few cartoon versions of Transformers since the 80s. It has a rich, diverse history (histories actually depending on the medium). It is good, smart sci fi that delves into much more than what appears on the surface. If you do not want to get into all that then fine...but please don't think all there is to Transformers is a cartoon from the 80s.

2. "This movie HAD to update the designs, Generation 1 Transformers were too blocky and dated"

Most Transformer fans know this. It will be rare to find a Transformer fan who will not accept any updating...what fans want is resemblance.

3. "Exact translations of the cartoon would look ridiculous on screen"

Again...you will be hard-pressed to find a fan who wants this. Almost everyone I've talked to on this forum wants updated designs that maintain resemblance to their previous incarnation(s). I use Optimus Prime as an example of the perfect combination of modernization and resemblance to the original design. Other's may have different examples but I don't know of anyone here who wants exact translations of G1.

4. "Hating the new Optimus Primes because of the flame paintjob is stupid"

This topic is so, incredibly old. It has been argued to death around here over a year ago...but it has been popping up again a lot lately so I'll address it. A lot of people do not like the flames because it makes Optimus Prime seem like he's trying to be a badass when he doesn't have to try...he just is. He is a solemn leader who uses actions to battle. A garish, flashy paintjob is not necessary. I now see it as a non-issue and have moved on a long time ago but apparently people still like to talk about it.

5. "Its going to have lots of action and big ****ing robots. What more do you want?"

Now...this is my beef with this movie. I am not going to lie and say I'm not looking forward to this movie. I look forward to this movie because it will be a fun, action packed popcorn movie that I can have fun watching. Hell, I've been looking forward to a Transformers movie since I can remember.

But, the movie that is coming out July 3rd is not what I was looking forward to. The movie I envisioned was going to be the next Star Wars. Starting on Earth and winding up in space with fun, epic AND smart sci fi. Now, I know this might be too much for one movie so spacing it out makes sense. Will this movie be like that? I doubt it...from the script reviews, recent movie reviews and the director's attitude about fans and the source material I think we will get the usual Bay movie...fun but not exactly something that will be revered as much as Star Wars, Terminator, or countless other sci fi films that have drawn in diverse audiences.

6. "Michael Bay is the perfect director for this movie"

In some peoples eyes this may be true...and to be honest when I heard he was attached I had fear AND excitement in my heart. I was excited because I know that Bay can bring the action...and from the looks of it we have that in loads. I was scared because Bay's movies are not known to have much character development nor are story driven...but instead action driven. From the looks of it we have that as well.

7. "You fanboys are lucky to get a Transformer movie at all"

Yes we are, as with ANY comic book movie. Why do people feel the need to say this in EVERY forum on the Hype? I won't even justify this by answering it.

8. “What's the big deal? Every subsequent incarnation is different. This is nothing new for anyone who's followed Transformers over the years.”

True, however, producers gave fans false hope early on by stating it would be a G1 adaptation. It's understandable that things are fluid when it comes to Hollywood adaptations; however, an early appearance by a flat nosed red truck at San Diego Comicon 2004 seemed to give this theory credibility. So G1 fans aren't necessarily to blame for expecting a 100% faithful adaptation.

---------------------------------------------

Now, I'm sure there are more and I will add them as I remember them. I'm just informing you that these opinions have been recycled over and over and over again. Now I'm not saying you can't bring up the same arguments but know that you might get referred to this thread if you do.

Please PM me if you would like to contribute.

 

[CFlash]

Wow thank you for this Nosebleed. Very balanced. I wish I could be so level-headed.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

This is to those who are mostly new here. You are walking into a pretty divided forum here with extremists on both sides. I'm not trying to scare you off but just to get a few points straight before you post what everyone else posts over and over again.

These are examples of what almost every new person who favors this movie are posting in the threads:

1. "Transformers is just a dated cartoon, what's the big deal about updating and changing it?"

.

For more information, Go here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=11809998#post11809998

 

[nosebleed.]

Wow thank you for this Nosebleed. Very balanced. I wish I could be so level-headed.

Just needed a thread that I could refer people back to when the same arguments are used over and over again. And with more and more new people coming here I get really tired of typing the same justifications over and over again. Thanks though

For more information, Go here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=11809998#post11809998

Another great thread to refer people (who actually want to learn more about Transformers) to. Thanks SB...I knew your college ed would be good for something

 

[nosebleed.]

Do you guys stop and think "I think I've read or said this at least 5 times before, but what the hell..." before you post your G1 leg humping/ Bay is a Shmuck threads?

YES Nivek. THAT is why I made this thread...so I when I came across a point we've read about a thousand times before I could link to this thread...which contains justifications I've stated a thousand times before.

And thanks for the G1 leg humping/Bay is a Shmuck comment...you enlighten us all with your tact.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Do you guys stop and think "I think I've read or said this at least 5 times before, but what the hell..." before you post your G1 leg humping/ Bay is a Shmuck threads?

stop being a d*ck. nosebleed has already explained that he's going to use this thread for future reference whenever he wants to make a point that he's already said "5 times before". maybe if you actually read the thread instead of just trashing it w/out TRYING to understand where they're coming from then you wouldn't be acting like a complete @$$.

 

[YÅ«gi's BM]

To be perfectly honest they could have just ignored the whole 'source material' concept because honestly, I can't remember anything all that deep and intellectual about that show, all the good stuff comes from the spin-offs.

 

[Nivek]

**edit**

 

[DareDemon]

4. "Hating the new Optimus Primes because of the flame paintjob is stupid"

A lot of people do not like the flames because it makes Optimus Prime seem like he's trying to be a badass when he doesn't have to try...he just is. He is a solemn leader who uses actions to battle. A garish, flashy paintjob is not necessary. I now see it as a non-issue and have moved on a long time ago but apparently people still like to talk about it.

5. "Its going to have lots of action and big ****ing robots. What more do you want?"

Now...this is my beef with this movie. I am not going to lie and say I'm not looking forward to this movie. I look forward to this movie because it will be a fun, action packed popcorn movie that I can have fun watching. Hell, I've been looking forward to a Transformers movie since I can remember.

But, the movie that is coming out July 3rd is not what I was looking forward to. The movie I envisioned was going to be the next Star Wars. Starting on Earth and winding up in space with fun, epic AND smart sci fi. Now, I know this might be too much for one movie so spacing it out makes sense. Will this movie be like that? I doubt it...from the script reviews, recent movie reviews and the director's attitude about fans and the source material I think we will get the usual Bay movie...fun but not exactly something that will be revered as much as Star Wars, Terminator, or countless other sci fi films that have drawn in diverse audiences.

6. "Michael Bay is the perfect director for this movie"

In some peoples eyes this may be true...and to be honest when I heard he was attached I had fear AND excitement in my heart. I was excited because I know that Bay can bring the action...and from the looks of it we have that in loads. I was scared because Bay's movies are not known to have much character development nor are story driven...but instead action driven. From the looks of it we have that as well.

These parts are kinda slanted. But they are civil and overall, good thread.

Maybe a different stickied thread should be made that is just as civil and just as slanted the other way.

 

[Mr. Roboto]

From a business point of view the only viable way to make a sucessefull Transformers movie is a summer blockbuster like were getting. Hasbro wants to sell their figures and merchadising so they also have a big say on the movie production.
It's also a similar reason why the tv shows story are less gritty and mature when compared to the comics. You have a smaller audience and the cost of making is much lower so you can take bigger risks.
Regarding the movie, ILM did a tremendous job with the CGI it's a labor of love we just have to see if it pays up or not. So far I've been happy, the new theme song not but I doubt they'll actually use it and hope the movie is a huge hit to bring a sort of revival on a mainstream level for TF.

 

[blind_fury]

To be perfectly honest they could have just ignored the whole 'source material' concept because honestly, I can't remember anything all that deep and intellectual about that show, all the good stuff comes from the spin-offs.

Why even call it Transformers? To make money?

If these hacks want to start from scratch great. Start with a new title. "Transformers" is taken.

 

[bunk]

Who's the hack?

 

[YÅ«gi's BM]

Why even call it Transformers? To make money?

If these hacks want to start from scratch great. Start with a new title. "Transformers" is taken.

You missed the point. It still is essentially Transformers, it just creates its own path but still draws on elements from other branches of the franchise outside of the original series.

You are making out like this film is completely ignoring what came before it.

 

[blind_fury]

You missed the point. It still is essentially Transformers, it just creates its own path but still draws on elements from other branches of the franchise outside of the original series.

You are making out like this film is completely ignoring what came before it.

No, you missed my point. I wasn't talking about Bayformers dude.

You said they should've ignored the source material completely and I asked "why even call it Transformers (if your going to ignore th source material completely)? for the money?".

 

[DorkyFresh]

If these hacks want to start from scratch great. Start with a new title. "Transformers" is taken.

Prime, Bumblebee, Ironhide, Ratchet, Jazz, Starscream, Megatron, Sam "Spike"...


...last time i checked these were all characters from a cartoon series with the same name. that makes your "start from scratch" remark moot.

 

[Nivek]

**edit**

 

[nosebleed.]

To make this a more balanced thread I have asked for overall supporters of the movie to contribute commonly debated statements from posters who have issues with the movie.

------------------------------

1. "There's no need to change the designs. They look good the way they are."

The designs from generation 1 have been embedded in many fans’ minds and while everyone wanted to see a resemblance, the movie also needs to show the audience something that they've never seen before.

2. "This movie should have been called Go-Bots instead of Transformers."

When you're making a big movie about robots battling each other you're not going to name it after a failed cartoon that was forgotten before it even took off. The movie might not be as faithful to the source material as Batman or Spider-Man are but then again Batman and Spider-Man have obvious cannons and stable history while Transformers has always been a victim of change.

3. "Bumblebee is not a Beetle!"

The most common answer is that Volkswagen didn't want their car to be the feature of a "war" movie. So Bay and co. probably chose to use new Camaro since it's being released this year. His vehicle form doesn't give Bumblebee the feel of an underdog anymore, but his face clearly gives the "innocent" impression and he's still the robot that's closest to the humans.

4. "Prime has flames!"

Bay admitted in a recent video that the reason Prime has flames is simply because he just wanted to put flames on Prime in an attempt to make him MORE badass than he already is. While I understand that Prime doesn't need flames to look badass it can be argued that Prime's flames are due to flame designs on trucks being common now-a-days. The flames also help break up the color scheme because a fully faithful color scheme looks too simplistic for a live action movie.

5. "Humans play too big of a role in this movie."

The relationship between the Transformers and the humans were spread out among many episodes from G1, thus it's easy to accept the TFs as the main characters. The movie, however, is telling the story of human's first contact with Transformers in one movie; therefore the story needs to be told from an Earthly point of view so that the majority of the audience can get into the movie easier than if the story were being told from the robots' perspective.

6. "Michael Bay raped my childhood."

Make no doubt...this version of Transformers is a different beast than any of the previous TF incarnations, but that doesn't necessarily mean Bay raped anyone's childhood. The cartoons haven't been changed and if you're more comfortable with them then they'll always be there. But this movie is it's own incarnation of Transformers the same way movie Blade is a different version of the same Blade from the comic books.

7. "This movie could've been so much more. Instead, we're getting Godzilla and Independence Day except with Go-Bots."

A director with a greater vision could've made this movie the next Terminator, Matrix, etc. but a lot of the spirit and feel of Transformers is still in tact. We're getting the main Autobots with 2 of the main Decepticons along with Sam "Spike". What really sets the movie apart from ID4 and Godzilla is that we'll actually get to know a couple of the non-humans, ala ET. Godzilla and the aliens from ID4 were mainly looked at as the threat that needs to be stopped but Prime and Bumblebee will be giving us a more personal look at their situation that we couldn't see in Godzilla and ID4. This movie isn't as epic as it could've been, but it also could've been MUCH, much worse. After all there are movies that were fairly faithful to their source but still didn't turn out very well (Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Ghost Rider and arguably the Hulk).

8. "The G1 source should be treat like LotR"

LotR is one concise mythology of grandiose writing that has stood the test of time and is a literary classic, TF is a concept designed initially to sell toys with a fairly basic mythos that has been expanded in some versions but also has had so many weaker spin off versions thus making it less than a concrete classic mythos from which to draw from ala LotR.

9. "Michael Bay lacks the vision to direct a Transformers movie without making it just a visual spectacle"

iMichael bay has enough vision to establish the TF in a new and exciting fashion for a fresh movieverse. For an origin movie it ticks all the right boxes in both the human and bot world and sets up well for a sequel.

The mythology of what the Bots are all fighting for is there. Establishing connection between us and a race we don't understand, who then fight with us against evil from their own race is not so different from the US special forces combining with special agents and such in countries in the middle east to help the war on terror. That to me is an interesting metaphor in the film.

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Reminder. These statements and justifications are not to bash one group or another but just to point out commonly argued points so as not to regurgitate the same arguments over and over.

Please PM me if you would like to contribute.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I should also note that G1 is a garbage can term not simply restricted to the cartoon, but including the comic, the UK, and Japanese continuities in addition to action figures, future retellings, certain fan fictions and BOTCON exclusive comics. Therefore to say the G1 canon can at all be treated like LOTR or even Spider-Man is impossible. G1 is as diverse as the DCU multiverse itself.

 

[YÅ«gi's BM]

I should also note that G1 is a garbage can term not simply restricted to the cartoon, but including the comic, the UK, and Japanese continuities in addition to action figures, future retellings, certain fan fictions and BOTCON exclusive comics. Therefore to say the G1 canon can at all be treated like LOTR or even Spider-Man is impossible. G1 is as diverse as the DCU multiverse itself.

Then again, will the public audience actually reconize these elements which really segragate them from the hardcore fan audience?

In lamemans terms, the public audience cannot be expected to dig that deep with this particular franchise for it isn't as big as franchises like Spider-Man or Batman.

 

[Nivek]

... the public audience cannot be expected to dig that deep with this particular franchise for it isn't as big as franchises like Spider-Man or Batman.

YET. Who knows, it is somewhat fresh but generally known as Spider-man was, and dad's who are introdusing the franchise to their children. It's very accessible to people, given the internet (youtube), and a pretty quasi-militant pre-established fan base, much like Star Wars.

Hell, we even have the same type of notorious hateful fan who biatches and biatches but is frigging going to be therewith the rest of us because they very well know how cool it could be, and that will be enough put their rear in a seat the first 5 days.

I'm not a diehard who watched every cartoon, or read the gavillion transformers comics, or liked Beast wars because Optimus Prime isn't a damn talking monkey. Yeah, I'm kinda ignorant about alot of added on continuity, and thought the '87 movie rocked back in the day with acid washed jeans and a mullet. But I can deal with some changes, and after talking to many of my friends, everyone I know is pretty interested. Yeah, it could suck storyline wise, but if they get the Autobots down as strong characters themselves, it will make Bank. Shia got hanks like charisma, and Megan is sex wrapped in flesh, but we get to see Optimus freaking Prime with the classic voice. I seen Ghost Rider and Spider-man 3, I know Transformers gotta be better than that.

 

[Gabroni]

The flames do look stupid, so its a shame that Bay couldn't put aside his personal tastes on the design of the most beloved and recognizable Transformer of the all.

Still, as long as the movie depicts him as a wise, fearless leader who has no equal on the battlefield other than Megatron, then it should be okay.

 

[batbat_29640]

Hey as long as Cullen is the voice for Prime . . . and Prime does indeed body slam that Bonecrusher muther f***er then Im gonna be one happy mofo. Oh and as long as StarScream's the whinney b***h we all love to hate then everything should be cool. I gots my fanboy card in hand!!!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Why even call it Transformers? To make money?

If these hacks want to start from scratch great. Start with a new title. "Transformers" is taken.

25 plus continuities call themselves Transformers. From Beast Machines which is about morphing techno-organic beasts, to Cybertron in which "Cyber Planet keys" unlocked superpowers, to Transtech and unproduced show that resembled Gundam, to Masterforce in which Transectors (humans) controlled mindless robot bodies (part of G1 continuities), to Beast Wars Neo which featured comedic animals who retained traits of the animals they became, to Gobots, which is a cartoon for young Children. To try to put it in a box like you've done is insane, and I'm afraid I'm partially to blame for providing with a little information and enough rope to hang yourself with.

G1 the cartoon is not the only thing Transformers has to offer, it's not even close to the best thing. Transformers has grown so far beyond that cartoon in 20 years that actually most fans of TFW2005 and Allspark.com hate on it constantly. It was good for what it was, and a lesser telling than the concurrent comic by Simon Furman and Budinsky which did a far better job of mythifying these characters. In fact most fans, especially the casual ones who watched Beast Wars and later installments frequently confuse elements from the comic as being part of the show.

The show was a toy commercial, a very good commercial, but a commercial none the less. It had some gems, but all in all was annoyingly gimmicky and really only relied on it's characters to tell otherwise weak stories. Season 3 was probably the first attempt a ongoing plot, but even that had it's problems....and much weaker cast members.

The show often ate itself, and failed the capitalize on the epic aspects Furman introduced which would influence the series later on. The movie haters, especially those on the boards in Transformer forums really only hated it out of spite for an off hand comment Don Murphy made in regards to it being G1 based and a flat nosed semi at BOTCON which seemed to support it (as is pointed out here). The fact is Tom DeSanto and Don Murphy talked out their ass, and really from the onset this film was about creating yet another continuity to heap onto the Transformers pile. Something I really cannot have a problem with, and don't, since I've seen it all been done before over and over again.

 

[CFlash]

^ ^ ^
I don't take issue with anything you've said ShadowBoxing.... except to say that if they made a Batman movie where he had no cape and had rocket boots, I wouldn't call it BATMAN. I'd call it Batman Beyond. Same goes for THIS movie.

I agree with you. I've said it before (long ago) but it's the A-Z "fans" that I've noticed are very receptive to this movie.... because of exactly what you state. For me, personally, Transformers is Transformers. When a movie (in a plot, substance, iconography (evil looking monster bad-guys)) resembles Go-bots... it should be called Go-bots. If they're apes and animals it should be called Beast Wars. But, this movie is called TRANSFORMERS. And, there has only ever been ONE TRANSFORMERS... whether you think it sucks or not. And, I expected it to be more faithful to the core of that story (in the natural resources plot, for instance).

 

[ShadowBoxing]

^ ^ ^
I don't take issue with anything you've said ShadowBoxing.... except to say that if they made a Batman movie where he had no cape and had rocket boots, I wouldn't call it BATMAN. I'd call it Batman Beyond. Same goes for THIS movie.

I agree with you. I've said it before (long ago) but it's the A-Z "fans" that I've noticed are very receptive to this movie.... because of exactly what you state. For me, personally, Transformers is Transformers. When a movie (in a plot, substance, iconography (evil looking monster bad-guys)) resembles Go-bots... it should be called Go-bots. If they're apes and animals it should be called Beast Wars. But, this movie is called TRANSFORMERS. And, there has only ever been ONE TRANSFORMERS... whether you think it sucks or not. And, I expected it to be more faithful to the core of that story (in the natural resources plot, for instance).

That's the problem with what you say, there hasn't. There has been 25 to my current count AT least. Transformers is a toy name brand. Transformers, the show from 1984, is not called Transformers if you want to get technical. It's called Fight! Super Robot Life, and then Transformers: 2010. And if you really want to muck things up Transformers was used by both UK, US, Japanese and Comic continuities of G1, and Infiltration and Dreamwave, and IDW and the audiobook series among others ALL of whom have vastly different continuities.

It's not like Batman where you're building off of roughly the same continuity with roughly the same starting point. Batman is and will always be a story about Bruce Wayne whose parents were murdered senselessly in an alleyway when he was 12 and he dawned a bat costume to avenge them. Transformers isn't that way. Even within G1, even continuities that tie into the show (like War Within) Optimus Prime has had a number of origins...he wasn't even originally a robot named Orion Pax in some of them.

The natural resource plot wasn't even core to every story. The G1 comic, by Budinsky for example, didn't use that. The Transformers left Cybertron to protect from an asteroid shower.