Am I The Only Person Here.........

[S. Grundy]

That's probably because it isn't HEAT. If it was, it would be a complete ripoff.

Well, I was going by the "Interesting. Sort of like the current WAR ZONE script?" comment.

Your complaints about character development simply are not accurate. The script does things with every major character it introduces. Every character has a clear arc, conflicts to overcome, decisions to make, and places to "go". Is it the most interesting arc ever? No, but it is realistic and relevant.

The character stuff I'm talking about, is the fact that there are a few characters that get introduced but nothing becomes of them. There is a detective introduced in the beginning with Soap who just disappears, never see him again in the script. Then you got Maginity and the Bludats who just show up to be cannon fodder.

And then there is just pretty cheesy/cliched dialogue sprinkled throughout. If the movie does turn out to be a piece of ****, then at least it'll have the gore.

So, despite the fact that Castle has been killing people in strange ways for DECADES...and the fact that he kills plenty of people through normal means...

I mean, it smacks of "I hate the fact that he kills someone with a lobster", but you've clearly missed the point of the scene. The point is that Castle is a resourceful fellow. He will use whatever he has to kill with. This is spot-on the character from the comics.

No, the scene is ******ed, God bless you if the idea of Castle crawling around in mashed potatoes doesn't seem ****ing stupid. And then there is the whole chair balancing thing.

 

[The Guard]

except not as slowly paced at parts and have a cast of characters who's lives are all affected by the Punisher in various ways.

As I said. "Sort of" like the current WAR ZONE script.

The character stuff I'm talking about, is the fact that there are a few characters that get introduced but nothing becomes of them. There is a detective introduced in the beginning with Soap who just disappears, never see him again in the script.

Uh...so? It's a guy Soap rides with once. Not every person who appears in a movie has to be fleshed out.

Then you got Maginity and the Bludats who just show up to be cannon fodder.

Aren't most criminals generally just cannon fodder for Frank Castle?

And at what point does the script feature Castle crawling through mashed potatoes?

 

[S. Grundy]

Uh...so? It's a guy Soap rides with once. Not every person who appears in a movie has to be fleshed out.

I guess all he does is pointless exposition anyway, but still.

Aren't most criminals generally just cannon fodder for Frank Castle?

And at what point does the script feature Castle crawling through mashed potatoes?

Well, it's more the fact that they've taken those characters, who were pretty great on their own and just wasted them.

He does crawl on a dinner table that has food on it. Whether there are or are not mashed potatoes on it, still doesn't take away the fact that it's a stupid set piece.

I just flat out think the script isn't that good.

 

[The Guard]

Well, it's more the fact that they've taken those characters, who were pretty great on their own and just wasted them.

As opposed to what, not using them at all? It's a movie, not an ongoing comic book series. There's only so much room for character development.

He does crawl on a dinner table that has food on it. Whether there are or are not mashed potatoes on it, still doesn't take away the fact that it's a stupid set piece.

Why? What's so stupid about a vigilante crashing a mob dinner? It's the Don's "last meal".

I just flat out think the script isn't that good.

It's not brilliant, but it certainly isn't awful. What do you think would make it better?

 

[S. Grundy]

As opposed to what, not using them at all? It's a movie, not an ongoing comic book series. There's only so much room for character development.

Yeah not using them, the only reason they've been put in is for obvious fan wank. You can pretty much do without Maginty, he does nothing in the movie.

Why? What's so stupid about a vigilante crashing a mob dinner? It's the Don's "last meal".

The crawling on table is ****ing stupid, I'm not really a stickler for **** in a comic movie being exactly like it was in the comic. How Garth Ennis wrote that scene and Hensleigh was better. Walks in shoots the old **** in the head, walks out, claymores and machine guns World War III in Jersey.

It's not brilliant, but it certainly isn't awful. What do you think would make it better?

Ditching the cheesy and cliched lines, making it a serious, violent seedy and a mean movie, something that doesn't need to use laughable over the top violence* as a crutch.

That just me, and if you think this movie is gonna be awesome good for you, but I am going to skeptical until I see something to sawy my opinion.

 

[Brendan]

Interesting. Sort of like the current WAR ZONE script?

Excuse me for not reading the script and not wanting the whole entire film being spoiled for me.

Which the previous movie AND the older one both did. And which the script for WAR ZONE clearly does.

Nope, those previous two films did not convince me that there are people in this world who deserve to die. They both felt like typical action/adventure films. It would be like saying Boondock Saints does a good job convincing people of that. It doesn't.

The comic book THE SLAVERS is probably the best example of vigilante fiction that made me feel that way.

But in movies, the villians have to feel like real people in order for them to that across to me. And their crimes and the effect it has on people have to truely be ****ed up and heinous.

 

[Kable24]

Excuse me for not reading the script and not wanting the whole entire film being spoiled for me.



Nope, those previous two films did not convince me that there are people in this world who deserve to die. They both felt like typical action/adventure films. It would be like saying Boondock Saints does a good job convincing people of that. It doesn't.

The comic book THE SLAVERS is probably the best example of vigilante fiction that made me feel that way.

But in movies, the villians have to feel like real people in order for them to that across to me. And their crimes and the effect it has on people have to truely be ****ed up and heinous.

I've noticed that. Why in most comic book movies are the villains sympathetic and hate the way they are. The Spider-Man movies do this and it bugs the Hell out of me.

 

[Brendan]

I've noticed that. Why in most comic book movies are the villains sympathetic and hate the way they are. The Spider-Man movies do this and it bugs the Hell out of me.

It did get tiresome in the Spider-Man series. What's the point in being a bad guy if you don't like being bad?

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

While it's far, far worse in the gawdawful Spidey films (the forgiveness-fest at the end of 3, in particular), it is a really commonplace thing these days for the 'villain' to just be some misunderstood person with social relations issues who is poetically trapped in a lifestyle of doing things they wished they wouldn't do.

"Thank you for stopping me, [hero's name here]... I couldn't stop myself. I was too weak".

Then, the hero gets to cradle this mass murdering criminal in his arms while they die, lamenting the loss of a life that had just gotten on the right path.

If this Punisher film has minimal criminal characterization or motive and just has Frank relentlessly mowing down scumbag after scumbag, it will at least have accomplished something the other two haven't.

I want to see the Punisher punishing people. Nothing else.

I was discussing this after the film that Rob Zombie just tried to pass off as a Halloween film.

I didn't need a plot. I didn't go to the theatre to see compelling drama. I didn't pay to see character depth. I certainly didn't expect to see Michael Myers killing massive amounts of people simply because his sister refused to look at his family photo in the first act of the film. Think of the lives she could have saved, if only she had given this poor, misunderstood social misfit three minutes of her time when she was walking home from school, but nooooo...

I digress... I would pay to sit in a theatre for 2 hours if the entire movie was nothing but the theme music playing and minute after minute of Michael walking in a strip mall just butchering people with no rhyme, reason, or plot, whatsoever.

Same with this. If Frank is in NY, in disgusting settings, just ripping thru criminals, I wouldn't care if it was a silent film.

It might actually be better as a silent film, now that I think about it.

 

[The Guard]

Nope, those previous two films did not convince me that there are people in this world who deserve to die. They both felt like typical action/adventure films. It would be like saying Boondock Saints does a good job convincing people of that. It doesn't.

The comic book THE SLAVERS is probably the best example of vigilante fiction that made me feel that way.

But in movies, the villians have to feel like real people in order for them to that across to me. And their crimes and the effect it has on people have to truely be ****ed up and heinous.

Umm...Howard Saint killed Frank Castle's entire family over an accident. But hey, to each his own.

That seems a strange distinction to make when it comes to The Punisher. To Frank, criminals tend to be criminals.

 

[S. Grundy]

God forbid they try to add a layer of complexity with a villain.

 

[The Guard]

Hey I'm all for that, but if ever someone deserved to die...

 

[S. Grundy]

That what I'm saying, I think it's stupid to complain that a villain should only be one note and have no characterization.

 

[The Guard]

I don't know that villains neccessarily need to be sympathetic to be complex. Look at Saint's right hand man. He and his arc were a bit more complex simply because of the nature of his relationship with Howard and his "tastes".

 

[S. Grundy]

I'm not saying they need to be sympathetic, just you know not one note and mustache twirling.

Glass was flat out unsympathetic, but he didn't come off as one note.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

Yeah... I agree with that. Don't get me wrong... I'm not against 'depth', but I don't need to see Days of Our Lives level family background on these guys before Frank unloads a bullet into them.

Characterization is fine, to a point.

If I want to see Shakespeare, I'll go see Shakespeare. I'm not looking for high theatre in a Punisher film.

Honestly, character development is great... it was the entire theme of the 04 film, and it certainly made everyone happy there.

 

[S. Grundy]

I was happy with the character development in the '04 movie. They seemed to have overcompensated with the violence in the new movie at the expense of character.

 

[Brendan]

Umm...Howard Saint killed Frank Castle's entire family over an accident. But hey, to each his own.

That seems a strange distinction to make when it comes to The Punisher. To Frank, criminals tend to be criminals.

Which is something I've seen before in other movies. You gotta up the ante more.

And then there are the saturday morning villians they had doing it. The annoying little tough guy kid, the closet homosexual gang leader, and then you got John Travolta. Its like something out of a campy 80's movie that they tried to sneak off as serious.

When bad guys hurt innocent people in movies, its more interesting when you see the effect their actions have on the rest of the characters in the film. When you see the grieving mother after her daughter was raped and killed.... When you see a cop reacting to the discovery of a dead baby in a bath tub.... When the headlines of a missing child causes a whole town to panic... When anything they do is reminiscent to the stuff you see on the news in real life.. That is what I'm talking about when a good vigilante story needs to convince me that there truely are people in the world who deserve to die. You need to treat the bad guys the same way they were treated in a film like Goodfellas where being a scumbag is a way of life and that **** is real no matter where they go. I don't care if they live ordinary lives and visit their moms in between killings. The **** they do besides that keeps them from being anywhere near sympathetic.

All you ever saw John Travolta do in the 04 movie was sit at his desk by the phone while everyone else lounged by the pool. Not interesting enough for me to really say to myself "I despise people like that."

I don't hate 04, I'm just saying it's not the right kind of vigilante movie I'm looking for out of a Punisher film. It's just a typical action movie.

 

[screams]

I agree with pretty much everything Brendan says. Well put.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

All you ever saw John Travolta do in the 04 movie was sit at his desk by the phone while everyone else lounged by the pool. Not interesting enough for me to really say to myself "I despise people like that."

He also argued over where cigars come from.

While sitting at his desk.

 

[Kable24]

Guys just remember John Travolta has more guns than you.

 

[IDrawDeadPeople]

No offense... but no he doesn't.

I learned THAT little tidbit while he was sitting behind his desk, too.

 

[The Guard]

Which is something I've seen before in other movies. You gotta up the ante more.

Do you say the same thing when he kills people in the comics who have committed random crimes?

And then there are the saturday morning villians they had doing it. The annoying little tough guy kid, the closet homosexual gang leader, and then you got John Travolta. Its like something out of a campy 80's movie that they tried to sneak off as serious.

That's kind of the point. The Punisher's "villains" have always been pretty, how should I say, colorful people.

I tend to consider a man going around and murdering people for revenge pretty serious.

When bad guys hurt innocent people in movies, its more interesting when you see the effect their actions have on the rest of the characters in the film.

The whole point of the villains in THE PUNISHER was that they had hurt Frank, though...

Saint called for the execution of a man's entire family. He killed his wife over a perceived affair...

Like I said, it's an odd distinction to make in the context of The Punisher.

 

[S. Grundy]

Yeah, Saint sat behind a desk because he's the boss and has his men do his dirty work. That usually how it goes with criminal bosses.

 

[Brendan]

I don't care, they can show some other ****ing **** in between scenes other than him sitting at a desk. Its ****ing boring. You can debate me all you want and quote my every other sentence, but I just don't give a ****. Its just not the best formula that a Punisher movie deserves and its my opinion. Sorry if it bothers you.