Comics Amazing Spider-Man #1 (ugh) By Ryan Ottley! and Nic Spencer

[wolvie2020]

You hit the nail on the head my friend. how you doing mate?
Long time! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the final issue!

 

[wolvie2020]

In a conclusion, I have no idea how any writer that brings a character into the story with an explanation such as "Well, he's irrelevant to the story I'm writing now but he was in the story I'm ripping off off, so I'm gonna bring him in too" can be considered good.
The only way to give this garbage an excuse to last this long was to erase OMD, but he couldn't even do that! Instead, they decided to retcon the story everyone ignored for 15+ years and acted like it never even happened.
And man, what he's done to Harry cannot be justified. Erasing 15 years of character developement simply because you share the theory that Harry shouldn't have been ressurected, despite the fact that killing him again now won't return the impact of his original death and it won't feel the same anyway, cause he was alive for such a long period of time, is just plain dumb.

I generally disagree with you, but totally understand your points all the same….
I.e. I felt all the BS was worth the outcome. But yeah. A **** ton of problems along the way

I totally sync with you on the ‘Harry Death’ thing. That was a total cheap stupid move.
If he was looking to ‘reset’ things, Harry’s death completely fudges that up.
E.g. They will have to constantly reference Mephisto now. i
If Harry didn’t die; A lot of this could’ve been ignored again and we could’ve gotten a fresh start.
*In addition*
I was quite perturbed that Pete never gave his opinion. he’s always had trouble blindly believing in the ‘after life’ and ‘magic’ He’s a scientist at the end of the day. Even if this stares him in the face - Any scientist would poke holes. That’s how a scientists brain works.

 

[Ben_Reilly]

You hit the nail on the head my friend. how you doing mate?
Long time! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the final issue!

Who are you referring to?
Me or someone else?

 

[Ben_Reilly]

So, now there are two dead Harry Osborns.
Amazing 31 to Spectacular 200
And BND to ... What was this story line or even arc called?

 

[wolvie2020]

Who are you referring to?
Me or someone else?

I actually meant Shinlyle! Whoops

 

[Ben_Reilly]

I'm curious as to what Still-a-Nerd thinks...
He disappeared from here a while ago, moved over to Bam Smack Pow / Fandom and stopped doing reviews around issue 17, I think...

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I wanted to wait for the dust to settle a bit before making a full post discussing my thoughts on issue 74/875 and just some general thoughts on Spencer's run as a whole. I'm not really going to talk about anything in great detail so I'll skip the spoiler tagging however if you haven't yet read Spencer's final issue, I would say maybe skip reading my post until after you've been able to read the issue.

So, now that I've had some time to digest everything and even go back to reread several issues I have to say that overall I am quite happy with Spencer's run. It definitely has some problems and there's things I wish would have been different but overall I think the work that he did on the series, for the characters and the book itself was successful. I think the biggest problem or downfall with Spencer has to do with the ending. I have been saying for awhile and something I know that I've repeated a couple of times is that the entirety of Spencer's run was going to be judged on how well the book ended. And rightly so. Spencer's style of writing is long form storytelling. Every story, every arc has been slowly building over the course of his 3 years on ASM to this ending. He weaved together all these different elements, MJ, Mysterio, Kindred, Fred aka Boomerang, the Syndicate, Ock, Norman, Harry, etc. etc. etc. at first separately but ever slowly to a point where all the threads came together to the final issue. And that is where his story was headed. A big finale. But going back over everything the end was not what we were expecting and therefore the end is being judged harshly and to that effect his entire run is being judged harshly. Now, I've said that I'm content with the end. Was it the end I truly wanted? No. And because it isn't and because it is not the ending that was expected, what should have been this 'fist-pumping in the air' kind of end, that really justified this long, slow build up over 3 years, I really can't defend the criticism. Well, most of it. I certainly get the frustration coming from people regarding this...it's understandable. The idea that Spencer is the worst Spider-Man writer is a tad too far. Imo, this feels more like an emotional response. To each their own I suppose but imo there are far worse writers that have been on Spider-Man. Many may not like Spencer's longform storytelling format or style and that's fine but his character work, dialogue have all been exemplary. Now, he isn't perfect by any means. His pacing at times is terrible, there were too many issues that felt more like filler material, and he can be redundant.

Before I go any further, let's just address the elephant in the room. Look, the only reason we are at this point is because of One More Day. OMIT as a close second. But more than just those stories themselves it's the reasoning behind them. At the time, those schmucks at Marvel decided that they needed to get rid of the Spider-Marriage. Why? Well, at least in their words it was because Spider-Man works so much better as a single hero. But let's be real here. The reason they did this is because they wanted to relive their glory days and do it through a single Spider-Man. Also because they felt that MJ was not a good fit for Peter and never agreed with the marriage in the first place. Which is fine, if that's what you prefer but the manner in which they did this was atrocious. To this day OMD is still considered one of the worst stories in comics and for good reason. It's absolutely terrible. And how casually they just decided to toss everything away. BND promised to usher in a return to classic Spider-Man storytelling. Somehow with this new single status great Spider-Man stories would magically pop up out of the ground. Yeah...I'm still wondering where they went. I guess maybe they just never got around to publishing those. Kraven's Last Hunt is easily one of the best Spider-Man stories ever written and in many cases it ranks as number 1. That story featured a married Spider-Man. Their argument is extremely thin.

Imagine a hoarder house that is so trashed, dilapidated, and disgusting that it must be torn down and rebuilt before anyone else would be able to live there. It's so filthy and rotten to a point where you can't simply add some new carpet or just a new coat of paint and move in. Although that might be a bit of an exaggeration ASM had gotten to point where we couldn't just ignore the problems anymore. For years that is all any writer would do. No one actually addressed the problems plaguing the book. They would either ignore the problem completely, sweep it under the rug, act like it didn't exist or just put a brand new shiny coat of paint over the top. Where I give Spencer credit and where he has earned my compliments is the fact that instead of doing what the previous writer did, he actually decided to address these problems. And not only address them but take steps to correct them. Unfortunately the problems, like Sins Past for example had gotten so damn convoluted and messy that any real solution to fixing it was gonna be just as convoluted. I mean, I guess you can try to fault Spencer for that but ultimately I feel the blame for this falls on those who not only ignored this glaring problem but continued to pile more and more garbage on top of it. Spencer did such a good job of fixing the many ills of Spider-Man comics...he restored Peter and MJ's relationship, his friendship with Felicia, his complicated friendship with Jonah and bringing other classic members of the supporting cast to the forefront. Spencer gave Kraven back his death that he so richly deserved while also solving the problem of Kraven's clones and then leaving it so there is still a 'Kraven' out there for a future writer to use. I mean when they brought Kraven back from the dead it was clearly a mistake--they had no real plan in place and in the end it just made things worse. Again, yet another problem that was never addressed and kept sweeping it under the rug. Spencer took these problems head on and did what some writer was eventually going to have to do--he could have ignored all this stuff just like the previous writer but instead he chose to be the one to try and fix it. It may not have ended like he most likely intended but imo he was successful anyway. Spencer may not have the best pacing and he didn't really leave us with any 'all-timers' in the story department but I really loved how he brought many of the characters back 'into' character. That was the part about Spencer's stories that I truly enjoyed the most--his ability to write these characters as they I believe they were intended to be. In just his very first issue Spencer he was able to fix a lot of what had been wrong with ASM with Peter and his supporting cast. There may have been delays and a slow pace but Spencer stuck to a plan and saw it through. He honored the past continuity and acknowledged that it did happen--he listened to fans as to what was wrong with the book and took steps to correct them. I can't defend every criticism but I will say that Spencer was successful and I really do enjoy his time on the book.

As for the ending itself, based on all the clues in many of the issues leading up to the end, imo this is not how Spencer wanted it to end. I feel like he wanted this to end with a reversal of OMD or at the very least bring it to a point where we have an actual moment where Peter and MJ come to know everything. Instead all we got was Mephisto giving us the reasons behind OMD, which actually make much more sense than the original story ever did and then we got an olive branch of sorts with Strange saying Pete and MJ's love is "unbreakable." Not terrible by any means but yeah, not the ending that I believe was intended. So why not? Well, it probably started with the pandemic. Can you blame Spencer for taking up substack on their offer? Also I don't think that Lowe and Spencer's style really meshed. I think Lowe tends to prefer shorter arcs with more event type stuff and then restarts to a new number 1. But with Spencer leaving and not enough time to truly finish the book how Spencer wanted to it was rushed and/or Spencer didn't want to stretch it out to issue 900. It's pretty clear reading through Sinister War that Spencer probably would have dedicated more issues to telling this story. It felt so underdeveloped and rushed and not in line with his style at all. And I wouldn't be surprised if Lowe wouldn't allow him to end with a reversal of OMD unless it was on issue 900. I mean, there's a reason they brought in Gage to help pen the final issue. It probably went through several rewrites. What will happen with issue 900 now is anyone's guess. Bringing Ben back makes no sense at all. It's abundantly clear though the next 25 issues before issue 900 are a stop gap measure. I'm sure 900 will be another massive 80 page issue with a plethora of variants.

So...here's some things I would like to see happen in the next big run...

Definitely more Peter and MJ as a couple. I want MJ to play a larger role and I'd like to see more of her spunk and fiery personality.

No more mystery villains, please. Also hold off with the Goblins and Ocks too. Let's get some other villains in the mix and new or old.

Peter needs some more stability. Maybe have him hold onto a job for awhile--as a photographer would be great but I also enjoyed him as a teacher too.

Let's drop the serious tone for a bit. I want some big, fun, crazy epic stories! Now, that doesn't mean we should drop the quality of the book in favor of that nor have the characters do stupid out-of-character stuff like much of Slott's terrible run. I definitely do not want his "LOL OMG it's comics guys!" nonsense. It's possible to have big/epic/fun with great writing...the X-Men can do it, well, so can Spider-Man.

 

[Spidey_62]

I'm curious as to what Still-a-Nerd thinks...
He disappeared from here a while ago, moved over to Bam Smack Pow / Fandom and stopped doing reviews around issue 17, I think...

He's been telling his thoughts on the Spider-Man Crawl Space podcast pretty often, I think.

I stopped buying around Last Remains, I just kinda lost interest as it kept going on and going on. I've been keeping track of the books though, and feel like the lack of dealing with anything is really a big waste. I think most fans were content with just ignoring Sins Past, aside from Norman's one mention last year it was pretty much wholesale ignored more than OMD has been lately. It all feels very incongruous with what was actually set up in the run and reeks of interference. Everything suddenly becomes way too convoluted to be satisfying unless you have a PHD in Spidey-ology, even then it's still too complicated, and this comes from somebody whose brain is full of arguably too much Spidey lore and knows where it's all being pulled from. Kindred's plans in the end make no sense, and a great deal of it just doesn't add up to what came before.

My enjoyment of Spidey comics is very sporadic these days, I think Slott had a few big hits early on, Spencer's run started off really enjoyable (I loved Ottley drawing Spidey a ton), Zdarsky had a few really good issues and his out of continuity mini series' are great. Unless Marvel's out there truly releasing some great Spidey stories I'm just not gonna waste my time and money anymore on stuff that goes nowhere, there's too many other more fulfilling comic books to read. Pains me to kick Spidey books to the curb but they really gotta prove it to me if they want me to buy their stuff, just pumping it out nonstop and expecting everybody to stay cause it's Spidey isn't good enough.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

He's been telling his thoughts on the Spider-Man Crawl Space podcast pretty often, I think.

I stopped buying around Last Remains, I just kinda lost interest as it kept going on and going on. I've been keeping track of the books though, and feel like the lack of dealing with anything is really a big waste. I think most fans were content with just ignoring Sins Past, aside from Norman's one mention last year it was pretty much wholesale ignored more than OMD has been lately. It all feels very incongruous with what was actually set up in the run and reeks of interference. Everything suddenly becomes way too convoluted to be satisfying unless you have a PHD in Spidey-ology, even then it's still too complicated, and this comes from somebody whose brain is full of arguably too much Spidey lore and knows where it's all being pulled from. Kindred's plans in the end make no sense, and a great deal of it just doesn't add up to what came before.

My enjoyment of Spidey comics is very sporadic these days, I think Slott had a few big hits early on, Spencer's run started off really enjoyable (I loved Ottley drawing Spidey a ton), Zdarsky had a few really good issues and his out of continuity mini series' are great. Unless Marvel's out there truly releasing some great Spidey stories I'm just not gonna waste my time and money anymore on stuff that goes nowhere, there's too many other more fulfilling comic books to read. Pains me to kick Spidey books to the curb but they really gotta prove it to me if they want me to buy their stuff, just pumping it out nonstop and expecting everybody to stay cause it's Spidey isn't good enough.

Yeah it's pretty clear that the ending in Spencer's run didn't add up. The clues and story prior to this suggests something entirely different and it reeks of editorial meddling and changes. What should have been an ending worthy of our patience, dragging out a story over the course of 3 years, giving us the much needed sigh of relief and happiness in that end instead we got nothing more than an olive branch. A really good olive branch but yeah, imo this is not a good enough end to support the long wait. Still better than the bitter, antagonizing crap that we were getting with BND. At least there was an attempt to give the fans, something.

I totally get your lack of interest in Spider-Man. Imo though I'd rather have a writer try to fix a lot of these problems that were plaguing the book rather than ignore them and in doing that unfortunately there's the fact that trying to fix that stuff creates the problem of making a mess to get rid of the mess. If that makes any sense.

I don't know if you've read my post above but I feel like what Spider-Man needs at this point is a return to big, fun, epic comic book style stories. Keep the quality but ditch the serious tone.

 

[shinlyle]

I actually meant Shinlyle! Whoops

I'm okay! I mean, I'm constantly wearing my "early 40s" disguise, and I'm living on this rock in the year of madness, but I haven't been canceled yet, so I'm going to call that a win! Proud parent, still drawing and doing conventions when they come around, and I FINALLY got my 69 Camaro running just in time for gas to go north of $3 a gallon. Pretty much my own version of the "Parker luck"!

Hope things are going well your way, sir!!

 

[Ricardo Brown]

The idea that Spencer is the worst Spider-Man writer is a tad too far. Imo, this feels more like an emotional response. To each their own I suppose but imo there are far worse writers that have been on Spider-Man.

Yeah, I can totally see why those who are unfamiliar with my overall thoughts on Spencer may think that I'm just overreacting to the ending, but no, I felt the same way since the Sin-Eater's return, if not earlier. The ending only cemented my feelings. I can't think of anybody else of his level.

Spencer did such a good job of fixing the many ills of Spider-Man comics...he restored Peter and MJ's relationship, his friendship with Felicia, his complicated friendship with Jonah and bringing other classic members of the supporting cast to the forefront. Spencer gave Kraven back his death that he so richly deserved while also solving the problem of Kraven's clones and then leaving it so there is still a 'Kraven' out there for a future writer to use.

Now that's the part I often see Spencer gets praised for that makes me scratch my head.

Honestly, I only can agree with a Felicia part (although I heard that it happened in some Venom comic first and not in Spencer's ASM, but I'm not sure), everything else is debatable.

I feel like some readers only care about the fact that something has happened rather than how it happened. For example, Pete's & MJ felt more like a part of Spencer's to-do list rather than a natural reunion. No proper build up and didn't feel earned, just a simple
- let's be together again
- ok

Just compare this to how beautifully JMS wrote their reunion in vo.2 to see what I mean.

Jonah was written even more cartoonish than ever, and the real work developing their new relationship was done by Zdarsky.
Not to mention that any other supporting character was largely or completely ignored, including Harry, who wasn't even mentioned once, until when Kindred was initially unmasked, and everyone was acting like he's been dead since Spectacular 200 for the first 50+ issues. Plus, when Kindred got unmasked, Peter was like "Oh, of course it's you, it's always you when things go bad!" like the last 15 years of Harry being his most loyal friend never happened. And he wasn't even surprised by Harry's new powers and new look.
And once again, the real work developing his relationships with other classic characters, like May or Johnny Storm was done by either Zdarsky or Taylor. And not just because Spencer's writing resembles more of like living cartoons rather than real people but also cause some of them were absent/reduced to minor roles. Plus, there's been that weird Daredevil thinking Spider-Man works for the Kingpin thing for some reason, but I guess it fits Spencer's overall cartoonish style of writting.

As for the Kraven...
I still think killing a character and immediately replacing him with an identical character, but younger, is cheap and doesn't bring the impact of his original death back.

And then there's that REALLY questionable crap with Norman, Harry, Stan Carter, Foreigner and Ned Leeds, so, yeah, I don't know about what's the good job Spencer did with supporting cast.

Agree on Goblin, but Ock is needed now, imo. It's been a while since Otto been in some Spidey action, since he only was in this god awful Sinister War event, in which he appeared for no reason at all and was reduced to a simple plot-device.

I just don't see anything about this run that 'was worth it'. All he managed to achieve was a retcon of Sins Past. 3 years to undo a story nobody cared about, which was ignored since it's publication, ruining some great characters while doing so. Hardly an achievement.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Yeah, I can totally see why those who are unfamiliar with my overall thoughts on Spencer may think that I'm just overreacting to the ending, but no, I felt the same way since the Sin-Eater's return, if not earlier. The ending only cemented my feelings. I can't think of anybody else of his level.


Now that's the part I often see Spencer gets praised for that makes me scratch my head.

Honestly, I only can agree with a Felicia part (although I heard that it happened in some Venom comic first and not in Spencer's ASM, but I'm not sure), everything else is debatable.

I feel like some readers only care about the fact that something has happened rather than how it happened. For example, Pete's & MJ felt more like a part of Spencer's to-do list rather than a natural reunion. No proper build up and didn't feel earned, just a simple
- let's be together again
- ok

Just compare this to how beautifully JMS wrote their reunion in vo.2 to see what I mean.

Jonah was written even more cartoonish than ever, and the real work developing their new relationship was done by Zdarsky.
Not to mention that any other supporting character was largely or completely ignored, including Harry, who wasn't even mentioned once, until when Kindred was initially unmasked, and everyone was acting like he's been dead since Spectacular 200 for the first 50+ issues. Plus, when Kindred got unmasked, Peter was like "Oh, of course it's you, it's always you when things go bad!" like the last 15 years of Harry being his most loyal friend never happened. And he wasn't even surprised by Harry's new powers and new look.
And once again, the real work developing his relationships with other classic characters, like May or Johnny Storm was done by either Zdarsky or Taylor. And not just because Spencer's writing resembles more of like living cartoons rather than real people but also cause some of them were absent/reduced to minor roles. Plus, there's been that weird Daredevil thinking Spider-Man works for the Kingpin thing for some reason, but I guess it fits Spencer's overall cartoonish style of writting.

As for the Kraven...
I still think killing a character and immediately replacing him with an identical character, but younger, is cheap and doesn't bring the impact of his original death back.

And then there's that REALLY questionable crap with Norman, Harry, Stan Carter, Foreigner and Ned Leeds, so, yeah, I don't know about what's the good job Spencer did with supporting cast.

Agree on Goblin, but Ock is needed now, imo. It's been a while since Otto been in some Spidey action, since he only was in this god awful Sinister War event, in which he appeared for no reason at all and was reduced to a simple plot-device.

I just don't see anything about this run that 'was worth it'. All he managed to achieve was a retcon of Sins Past. 3 years to undo a story nobody cared about, which was ignored since it's publication, ruining some great characters while doing so. Hardly an achievement.

Making the statement that your 8-year-old self was writing Spider-Man comics that are on par with or better than Spencer seems to me like an emotional response. I could be wrong but that is my observation. I wasn't addressing you specifically as I've seen this sort of over-blown type of hate projected towards Spencer but since you replied...going back over your posts it seems you've been against Spencer from the very beginning. It's not a big deal. We all have certain writers or other creators that get under our skin or just don't hit the right beats for us. So, I have to wonder, even if the ending to Spencer's run was something different would that have changed anything for you? Imo, I'd say doubtful.

Because the ending was essentially a letdown, it also brings down Spencer's run as a whole. Which imo is unfortunate because even with the flaws that were present I was quite enjoying what Spencer was doing. I still stand by my sentiment that Spencer did some excellent character work and had some well thought, well-written dialogue. Like I said in my overly long post, the very first issue of his run addressed and solved many of the problems I felt were plaguing Slott's run. Imo, the book was now in a good place and the following several issues in those first couple of arcs cemented that, for me. Based on the clues we were given I don't believe that the end of the run was how Spencer intended it to end. Editorial obviously stepped in at some point and made changes. Either way, this is how the run ended and whether it was how Spencer wanted it to end it doesn't matter. It's unfortunate again because it had the potential to at least make the 3 years of waiting worth it. It's understandable that people are upset.

Considering Slott's consistent 'keeping Peter and MJ apart' and his antagonistic behavior in which it was done, I was completely fine with how Peter and MJ reunited. Peter's speech at the end of the first issue was truly earnest. Like any couple that has been through the on and off again dynamic they were happy to be back with one another but also taking it slow. There's no denying they care about each other. And Spencer built upon that throughout his run.

The initial writing of Jonah by Zdarsky was great. Spencer took what Zdarsky did in 'Dinner with Jonah' and built upon that and imo did so in a way that was a natural evolved measure of their relationship. I really appreciated how well he handled that dynamic and kept the characters truthful to their core. It was really well done.

As for Kraven, like I said he never should have been brought back. I imagine editorial or creators at that the time were like "Kraven is so cool!" "Yeah! Let's bring him back!" "That sounds like a great idea...wait, do we have a plan?" "Nope!" "Alright, well let's just do it and we'll figure it out later." But, they didn't. It was a hot mess. Once they decided to bring him back it immediately cheapens his death. It happens all time with so many characters--it's something in comics that irritates me. Spencer agreed and wrote a well-told story that at least returned Kraven back to what he earned in Last Hunt. I loved how it basically came down to a battle of philosophy between Spider-Man and Kraven much like their interaction within Last Hunt. Imo, this was Spencer's greatest strength--putting these characters into situations for good storytelling and highlighting their core truths.

Not without his own problems though and an underwhelming ending it definitely takes his run down a few pegs. Spencer's run overall kinda reminds me of the post Clone Saga, pre-Mackie era in the late 90s. At that time the book was trying to find its footing after so much excess from the Clone Saga which is basically what happened here with Spencer and trying to find some footing after the excess of Slott and his terrible run. And both the Clone Saga and Spencer's ending fell completely flat each with their own revelation that ended up being a major disappointment. It was that Baby May tease and red herring of the late 90s pre-reboot and then with Spencer we got a lack of a real OMD resolution and no engagement. So, even as much as I enjoyed his run overall, yeah, it sucks the end wasn't what was advertised.

If I had to make a list of my top Spider-Man writers, it would be as follows:

1. Stan Lee
2. Gerry Conway
3. JMS
4. Roger Stern
5. David Michelinie
6. Tom Defalco (first run)
7. JM DeMatteis
8. Marv Wolfman
9. Nick Spencer
10. Len Wein
11. Tom Defalco (2nd run)
12. Howard Mackie
13. Denny O'Neil
14. Dan Slott

 

[Ben_Reilly]

Considering Slott's consistent 'keeping Peter and MJ apart' and his antagonistic behavior in which it was done, I was completely fine with how Peter and MJ reunited. Peter's speech at the end of the first issue was truly earnest. Like any couple that has been through the on and off again dynamic they were happy to be back with one another but also taking it slow. There's no denying they care about each other. And Spencer built upon that throughout his run.

That's the issue though. Pete and MJ didn't reunite. They were just randomly together.

I liked some of Spencer's work, as you said, some well thought out dialogue and interactions, but overall, for me, his run was just rehashes of older ones.

Yeah, great, Kraven died again, but there's still a Kraven running around. Its a clone of Kraven, so he's really not gone.

Lizard and Connors are split again...
Chameleon...
Tri-Sentinel...
Hell all of issue 74 negated all of 73!
Yes, that might be editorial, but still, he wrote it.
He hasn't done what JMS did and tried to explain or distance himself.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

That's the issue though. Pete and MJ didn't reunite. They were just randomly together.

I liked some of Spencer's work, as you said, some well thought out dialogue and interactions, but overall, for me, his run was just rehashes of older ones.

Yeah, great, Kraven died again, but there's still a Kraven running around. Its a clone of Kraven, so he's really not gone.

Lizard and Connors are split again...
Chameleon...
Tri-Sentinel...
Hell all of issue 74 negated all of 73!
Yes, that might be editorial, but still, he wrote it.
He hasn't done what JMS did and tried to explain or distance himself.

I went back and read over issue 1 again. I think we just have different perspective on Peter and MJ. Throughout the issue Spencer talks about how important MJ is and always has been. In the end Peter confesses his love for her and she reciprocates by saying "we're in this together. We always have been." Imo this is more than just a random event. But, we can agree to disagree.

And I totally get the criticism against Spencer. It makes sense to me...most of it is understandable. Even if the end wasn't truly Spencer's desire or what he wanted, it still ended in a disappointing way. Because of this his run is earning deserved criticism and I can't fault those doing so. Even as much as I enjoyed his run overall, yeah, the ending was enough of a letdown that I'm critical of his run too. The only part I don't agree with is that he's the worst writer Spider-Man has had on the title. Spencer is a talented writer. And who knows, maybe at some point we'll get Spencer's view point on this in some interview a year from now. I dunno. It'll be interesting to see what he has to say.

As for Kraven...it's basically what his whole run was about. Trying to pick up the broken pieces after Slott's disastrous run, correct missteps from other stories...it's a daunting task but imo where Spencer succeeded is despite the lack of a noteworthy ending he's left the book in a place where the next writer can come in and just start telling stories, good stories again. He cleaned up enough of the mess that there's a fresh start to be had. And imo I think that's a good thing. I'm looking forward to see what's next and like I said in my long post above, I'd like to see a return to more epic, fun comic book stories. Just not in Slott's idiotic style.

 

[Ben_Reilly]

I haven't called Spencer the worst Spider-Author...
That dubious honor goes to Slott.
Runner up is JoeQ and Mackie/Byrne!

 

[Ricardo Brown]

Making the statement that your 8-year-old self was writing Spider-Man comics that are on par with or better than Spencer seems to me like an emotional response. I could be wrong but that is my observation. I wasn't addressing you specifically as I've seen this sort of over-blown type of hate projected towards Spencer but since you replied...going back over your posts it seems you've been against Spencer from the very beginning. It's not a big deal. We all have certain writers or other creators that get under our skin or just don't hit the right beats for us. So, I have to wonder, even if the ending to Spencer's run was something different would that have changed anything for you? Imo, I'd say doubtful.

You're right, it wouldn't have. It certainly would've been less offensive to some characters and had the OMD been undone, the whole run wouldn't feel like a one big nothing, but my biggest problem with Spencer is his style of writing things rather than filler stories or anything else. I don't know how to explain this, but to me it feels like some amateur's first attempt at writing, with the way he writes characters, relationships, drama and dialogues. Although, at times it felt like he was trying to imitate J.M.DeMatteis, but man, it almost felt like a parody, imo.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be mean, I myself love several things that are considered controversial, at least on this forum. I personally think that Norman's resurrection was the best thing to ever happen to his character, so yeah. If you like his style and enjoyed his run - good for you.

As for Kraven, like I said he never should have been brought back. I imagine editorial or creators at that the time were like "Kraven is so cool!" "Yeah! Let's bring him back!" "That sounds like a great idea...wait, do we have a plan?" "Nope!" "Alright, well let's just do it and we'll figure it out later." But, they didn't. It was a hot mess. Once they decided to bring him back it immediately cheapens his death. It happens all time with so many characters--it's something in comics that irritates me. Spencer agreed and wrote a well-told story that at least returned Kraven back to what he earned in Last Hunt. I loved how it basically came down to a battle of philosophy between Spider-Man and Kraven much like their interaction within Last Hunt. Imo, this was Spencer's greatest strength--putting these characters into situations for good storytelling and highlighting their core truths.

Oh, no, I'm completely with you on that. Bringing Kraven back served absolutely no purpose and the whole story felt like it was done just for shock value (Mattie graphic sacrifice, Spidey ripping the skin off Sasha's face etc), and yeah, the last issue of the Hunted storyline was one of very few Spencer's issues I liked (the rest of the arc had the same old Spencer problems: lets-put-every-known-character-in-it-and-let-there-be-a-mindless-fight, same recycled plot of a villain getting multiple copies of himself, in this case - Vermin, questionable art style, slowing down the story for the whole arc and resolve everything in the last issue, etc), but what I mean is that putting him back in his grave doesn't give me the feeling I got from his original death back. And replacing him with an identical clone definitely doesn't help.

If I had to make a list of my top Spider-Man writers, it would be as follows:

1. Stan Lee
2. Gerry Conway
3. JMS
4. Roger Stern
5. David Michelinie
6. Tom Defalco (first run)
7. JM DeMatteis
8. Marv Wolfman
9. Nick Spencer
10. Len Wein
11. Tom Defalco (2nd run)
12. Howard Mackie
13. Denny O'Neil
14. Dan Slott

Damn, lol. Took me a minute to realize you only rated ASM writers. I thought I was crazy when I saw DeMatteis that low.

I went back and read over issue 1 again. I think we just have different perspective on Peter and MJ. Throughout the issue Spencer talks about how important MJ is and always has been. In the end Peter confesses his love for her and she reciprocates by saying "we're in this together. We always have been." Imo this is more than just a random event. But, we can agree to disagree.

If that were true, their break-up would have never happened in the first place though. Yeah, I get it, a moronic editorial mandate, Quesada, Slott, etc, but still, they been apart for 15 years and all of a sudden they both are like "we meant to be together" and everything is magically resolved in one issue. That's not how a talented writer supposed to be fixing things up.

It feels like Spencer just wanted them to be a couple again no matter what. Pretty much his whole run is just his checklist of things he thought were wrong with Spider-Man, so that the next writer could tell some good stories. Which is a good thing for the next writer but not that good for Nick.

 

[Herofan]

Imagine a hoarder house that is so trashed, dilapidated, and disgusting that it must be torn down and rebuilt before anyone else would be able to live there. It's so filthy and rotten to a point where you can't simply add some new carpet or just a new coat of paint and move in. Although that might be a bit of an exaggeration ASM had gotten to point where we couldn't just ignore the problems anymore. For years that is all any writer would do. No one actually addressed the problems plaguing the book. They would either ignore the problem completely, sweep it under the rug, act like it didn't exist or just put a brand new shiny coat of paint over the top. Where I give Spencer credit and where he has earned my compliments is the fact that instead of doing what the previous writer did, he actually decided to address these problems. And not only address them but take steps to correct them. Unfortunately the problems, like Sins Past for example had gotten so damn convoluted and messy that any real solution to fixing it was gonna be just as convoluted. I mean, I guess you can try to fault Spencer for that but ultimately I feel the blame for this falls on those who not only ignored this glaring problem but continued to pile more and more garbage on top of it.

I think a perfectly acceptable response to Sins Past would have been to never reference it or the twins afterward, it didn't need to be dealt with over a decade later.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I haven't called Spencer the worst Spider-Author...
That dubious honor goes to Slott.
Runner up is JoeQ and Mackie/Byrne!

True. My comment wasn't necessarily directed at you...more my disagreement with the general opinion that he's the worst writer. I've seen this expressed in various places around the internet.

You're right, it wouldn't have. It certainly would've been less offensive to some characters and had the OMD been undone, the whole run wouldn't feel like a one big nothing, but my biggest problem with Spencer is his style of writing things rather than filler stories or anything else. I don't know how to explain this, but to me it feels like some amateur's first attempt at writing, with the way he writes characters, relationships, drama and dialogues. Although, at times it felt like he was trying to imitate J.M.DeMatteis, but man, it almost felt like a parody, imo.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be mean, I myself love several things that are considered controversial, at least on this forum. I personally think that Norman's resurrection was the best thing to ever happen to his character, so yeah. If you like his style and enjoyed his run - good for you.

Oh yes, you could definitely tell that Spencer is a fan of DeMatteis and in several instances you could tell Spencer was emulating him. I guess we're just in disagreement over how it was handled and delivered. Aside from his pacing issues and the filler stuff I thought he did a good job.

As much as we may disagree on this point, I certainly appreciate your level-headed response and respect for my opinion.

Oh, no, I'm completely with you on that. Bringing Kraven back served absolutely no purpose and the whole story felt like it was done just for shock value (Mattie graphic sacrifice, Spidey ripping the skin off Sasha's face etc), and yeah, the last issue of the Hunted storyline was one of very few Spencer's issues I liked (the rest of the arc had the same old Spencer problems: lets-put-every-known-character-in-it-and-let-there-be-a-mindless-fight, same recycled plot of a villain getting multiple copies of himself, in this case - Vermin, questionable art style, slowing down the story for the whole arc and resolve everything in the last issue, etc), but what I mean is that putting him back in his grave doesn't give me the feeling I got from his original death back. And replacing him with an identical clone definitely doesn't help.

I'm in agreement with the emboldened part. I don't think any story could really replicate that initial feeling from Last Hunt. Bringing Kraven back, especially in the manner that they did, imo, cheapened his death. So while Spencer's Hunted wasn't able to replicate those initial feelings, I did feel good about how it ended and essentially restored Last Hunt's ending. It removed the cheapness of his resurrection is basically what I mean.

As for the clone...well, it may not have been the best choice but at least it puts future writers in a position where there does exist a 'Kraven' so the original doesn't need to ever come back. I can't fault the logic behind this and I support it.

Damn, lol. Took me a minute to realize you only rated ASM writers. I thought I was crazy when I saw DeMatteis that low.

I probably should have been more specific that, yes, I was indeed only ranking ASM writers. You can be assured that if I was ranking Spectacular SM writers DeMatteis would be at the very top. Well, maybe not in the 1st spot. I think if I was ranking SSM writers the top spot would go to Peter David. But then both of DeMatteis' runs would occupy the 2nd and 3rd spots for sure.

If that were true, their break-up would have never happened in the first place though. Yeah, I get it, a moronic editorial mandate, Quesada, Slott, etc, but still, they been apart for 15 years and all of a sudden they both are like "we meant to be together" and everything is magically resolved in one issue. That's not how a talented writer supposed to be fixing things up.

It feels like Spencer just wanted them to be a couple again no matter what. Pretty much his whole run is just his checklist of things he thought were wrong with Spider-Man, so that the next writer could tell some good stories. Which is a good thing for the next writer but not that good for Nick.

I think in a simplified view of his run you could definitely say that Spencer had a checklist. My opinion is that he had a plan but also executed his plan, ending aside, with full effect. Meaning, it was done earnestly and with conviction. From my viewpoint, even in the first issue Spencer presented not only the importance of MJ but also her importance to Peter. But also backed this up several times over...especially in issue 9 or 10, I think. It's the one where we see MJ attending that support group for those in relationships with supers. But the thing for me is, the only thing that was ever standing in their way of being a couple again was Slott. For all the stupid reasons he kept them apart, it only strengthened the idea that they should be together. As far as I was concerned we didn't need a whole lot of set up to make it happen. And that's not to take away from how I believe Spencer approached it.

 

[Ben_Reilly]

What's the point though, of killing off Kraven yet having a clone of him running around?

At least with Vladimir and Aloysha they were different.

I'm not being argumentative, I'm curious as to your perspective.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

What's the point though, of killing off Kraven yet having a clone of him running around?

At least with Vladimir and Aloysha they were different.

I'm not being argumentative, I'm curious as to your perspective.

So, I typed up this long reply and then some kind of a glitch erased it...frustrating.

Anyway, the short version of my response...leaving a clone at least will prevent some future writer from ever resurrecting Kraven again. And although Spencer basically made the Clone dress and act like the original Kraven, another writer can come in and change all that if they choose. Give the character a different name, look, motives, etc. The potential is there. Although I agree that the original Kraven should stay dead, I do like the idea of having a type of character that is a skilled hunter.

 

[Ben_Reilly]

There's nothing stopping someone else from bringing Kraven back again.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

There's nothing stopping someone else from bringing Kraven back again.

You're right. If another writer were to decide to bring back Kraven, they absolutely could. At this point though it'd be a difficult sell. He's died twice and not only died twice but chose to die based upon his own philosophy and losing that argument to Spider-Man. If another writer tried to bring him back they'd have to subvert both KLH and Hunted's storyline in a way that makes sense for the character to come back a 2nd time. I'm not a writer so I can't think of a reasonable way to do this but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done by someone with skills. Again though, it'd be a really hard sell. Especially when you have a Kraven esque character just sitting there. They brought Kraven back once and it was horribly executed...now that he's dead yet again, I just don't see it happening.

 

[shinlyle]

Well, I finally read the end of Spencer's run, as well as the beginning of Well's run. Spencer's run achieved something great with the whole undoing of Sins Past, but it still barely touched the mess of One More Day. I'll take what I can get.
That being said, the whole ending felt very rushed, despite the seeds being planted from the beginning. The next-to-last issue was an absolute dumpster fire of an issue. UNREADABLE. That's me being very kind. Issue 875 was decent, but just because of what it accomplished. Harry is back in the ground, and One More Day can be left to rot...
All in all, the entire Spencer run was pretty mediocre. It got the original Kraven back in the ground, Got Harry back in the ground...and acknowledged OMD. That's something.

As for Well's run with Reilly as Spidey. It's not bad! Kind of surprised I don't hate it.

 

[Ben_Reilly]

Well, I finally read the end of Spencer's run, as well as the beginning of Well's run. Spencer's run achieved something great with the whole undoing of Sins Past, but it still barely touched the mess of One More Day. I'll take what I can get.
That being said, the whole ending felt very rushed, despite the seeds being planted from the beginning. The next-to-last issue was an absolute dumpster fire of an issue. UNREADABLE. That's me being very kind. Issue 875 was decent, but just because of what it accomplished. Harry is back in the ground, and One More Day can be left to rot...
All in all, the entire Spencer run was pretty mediocre. It got the original Kraven back in the ground, Got Harry back in the ground...and acknowledged OMD. That's something.

As for Well's run with Reilly as Spidey. It's not bad! Kind of surprised I don't hate it.

I'm glad you are liking the new run.
I'm enjoying it. I'm an issue and a .BY issue behind, but it's nice that nearly all characters are written well and mostly in character!
It's been a long time since we've had that.

 

[Nicko-Ray]

Just came in here to say that I finally finished Spencer's run last month. I'm not going to give in-depth thoughts but I thought it was decent, maybe solid at best. It's very clear it was rushed. I wish it weren't the case.

That being said -- I have NOT read a single issue of the new run with new writers. Been getting it in my pull though lol. General thoughts? No spoilers, please..