Anybody feel bad for the N. Warriors and dislking Iron Man?

[RAMORE]

Didn't care much for namorita speedball was cool when written right. When did night thrasher start to suck such much they could just whack him like that

 

[jaydawg]

I'm loving whats going on with Iron Man. Remember, this is hardly out of character for him. And I definitely see where he's coming from on this issue. Thats why its so interesting to see whats gonna happen.

As for NW, I've been a big fan since I was 7 and I got three 90s comics for 99 cents at the local payless (Spider-woman II mini, final issue of west coast avengers and NW#29). More of those deals lead to more NW. And since Speedball is still around, I'm still happy. True Night Thrasher is gone, but by the end of the second run, the character was so mangled, he was beyond repair. Namorita always had potential, but she was always bland. So no tears on this side. Nova, Firestar and Speedball are still out there and those were the characters I always put above the rest. A revamping is hardly out of the question. And while I suppose this whole event would completely take away the personality I loved so much about Speedball (who wasnt unlike a young Impulse), I suppose another, actual rook, say Gravity, could pick up the comedy relief slack.

 

[Horrorfan]

Even though I am picking this up on trade, am I the only one who, when I think of Tony going 'dark' thinks of that Exiles arc?


*shivers*

 

[GNR]

I'm finding guys like Reed and Tony more interesting than they have been in a while.

 

[The Cleric]

quick question... was night thrasher, in the marvel universe cards III, a level 7 fighter?

 

[Artistsean]

I think Tony feels very responcible for all the deaths, and thinking that the end justifies the means like he does (I read he thinks that usually), he would see that registration is a necissary evil to save the lives of innicent people from clumbsy super heroe and villian battles.
I can understand why thinking that registration is a good thing, its not like they have to reveal their identities and retire or have no protection. they becaome SHEILD agents and are trained and protected by SHEILD.
But I would agree more with Captain America and his side.

Why does Reed Richards think it is a good thing, whats his reasoning?

 

[Dread]

Sure I feel bad for the New Warriors. Civil War basically gave a big **** you to characters that have been around for around three decades (Justice's thirtieth anniversary was last year for one). Making them into rookies again was even more aggravating.

So, basically... everything Dread said.

Very true; many of the NEW WARRIORS are decently old characters who should be above "rookie" status. Nova came out in the 70's too, for instance.

Having characters remain "perennial" rookies wares very thin, and a case in point is actually USM. That title has been going around for over 5 years, almost 100 issues, and has Spider-Man really LEARNED anything about being a hero? Not really. He's still as likely to make newbie-ish, bone-headed mistakes (mistakes so blatent that even a semi-competant reader could roll his eyes and go, "oh, c'mon!") or find himself "overwhelmed" and "out of his element" amung "real heroes" (re: any superhero character, any one, who is not Spider-Man). Its the schtick of the title, but it is getting very old to see that USM is just as likely to get ambushed, sucker-punched, owned and unmasked in issue #95 as he was in issue #7 or something. That's not character progression. That's spin-cycle. And I LIKE USM.

As for Night-Thrasher, I agree that he'd been badly mangled by the end of the 90's; as I stated before, NEW WARRIORS itself is a cautionary tale of how to massively bungle a franchise at every turn, and see it almost never have hope of recovery. Stronger franchises like SPIDER-MAN or X-MEN can survive screw-ups, retcons, excessive conveluted storylines, and misfires in time, but "middle" level stuff like NW was usually don't, and its a shame. There is too much "DC VS. MARVEL" sentiment these days (especially since both employ simular tactics), but I get more of a sense of DC embracing more of their characters than Marvel does; any Marvel character below B-list usually has backlogs of utterly wasted potential, and most of the NW's apply. At least his death should give Rage something to fight for again, and he's a character whose strength physically rises expotentially with his anger (yes, like the Hulk). Firestar, Nova, Justice (who really needs a definitive design; he always looks so "generic"), Rage, etc., have a lot of room to grow. As I said, if CW manages to get NW's relaunched competantly, then losing Thrasher & Namorita was a worthy sacrifice.

Squirrel-Girl hopefully won't lose faith in Speedball.

Onto others now:

- It is a bit puzzling that Mr. Fantastic would be gung-ho for registration, especially given how much trouble the F4 has been in at times for being so public, and that Johnny just got dogpiled by an angry mob. I've always seen him as a bit of a "narc" in the superhero community, and this doesn't change it. I mean, with a name like Mister Fantastic, could you expect him not to be? I imagine Sue may not be as willing, though. But the thing is, everyone makes a big deal of "Tony and Peter being friends", but Reed and Peter have been allies and comrades for a lot longer and less is being made of that. Heck, Spider-Man met the Fantastic Four in his SECOND APPEARENCE, and he & Torch have often been rivals/allies. SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH defined that sort of closeness at times between the Four and Spider-Man. If Peter had been attached to Reed, been talked into joining the SHRA by Reed, maybe it wouldn't reek as much as "being a puss" as it does for Tony, a friendship that was all but manufactured by the last half year of ASM (and argueably, NEW AVENGERS).

- I guess I have to admit a little disliking towards Iron Man now, especially as he's playing "master manipulator" in a way that puts a lot of cruder villian schemers to shame (even hiring Titanium Man to attack Washington for chrissakes). But to be fair, Iron Man's hardly been Top 5 character for me in Marvel, and it is in his nature to be that sort of "futurist", lone wolf type who does what he feels is just, regardless of what others say. Just look at "Armor Wars" (although he agrueably had more moral grounds for it; his tech had been used to hurt people, so he was taking it ALL back, even from allies).

 

[RockSP]

Ultra Girl and Slapstick...when did they join the Warriors? In the first or second series? (I stopped reading a few issues after Nicieza left)

 

[Dread]

Ultra Girl and Slapstick...when did they join the Warriors? In the first or second series? (I stopped reading a few issues after Nicieza left)

Both were in limbo until SHE-HULK #8, which seemed to retro-actively claim them as NEW WARRIORS. They didn't join in any of the previous 3 volumes. Considering Ultra-Girl is a much forgotten PAD heroine (in a way like a Kree Version of Supergirl), I don't mind if Slott stretched a little to try to insert them into the mythos. Maybe they were seen as "new warriors" in the sense that they were "young heroes", rather than actual affiliated members. I haven't read #8 or any issue of SHE-HULK though.

According to a glance at wikipedia, Ultra-Girl worked with the NW in her shortlived series in 1996 and that is probably why she was affiliated with them; Slott has a good eye. I don't recall Slapstick ever being connected with them, though, aside for being a "friend" of Speedball.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Being a friend of the most persecuted member of the Warrior seems like a good enough reason to stand with the remainder of the team and its allies to me.

I'm annoyed at what was done to the Warriors, and I absolutely hate Iron Man now, but the current stuff with Iron Man (aside from that Extremis crap) is the most interesting he's been in years. He's always been an arrogant prick, and now that's just naturally extending into politics because he suddenly took an interest in politics in the last pre-Disassembled arc of his comic. He's becoming a love-to-hate kind of character for me. Every panel he sets foot in annoys the hell out of me, but it also makes me realize that whenever he pisses off the wrong person (hopefully Thor, if the solicitations are any indication) and they rip his face off and shove it up his ass, it'll be that much sweeter.

 

[Horrorfan]

Does no one see the potential direction they could take Tony? They could sort of do what they did in Exiles and make him get MUCH darker, slightly evil, but without anyone realising it.

True it would be ballsy turning Iron Man evil, but it doesn't have to be permenant...

I just thought it was really creepy how how he manipulated everyone in that world to become it's 'benevolent' leader, and I think they could kinda do something like that here.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I doubt they'd ever turn the 616 Tony evil, even temporarily. If nothing else, Green Lantern, the pre-Onslaught evil Tony, the psycho, wifebeating Spider-Man, and every other hero-turned-villain show that publishers aren't willing to make major characters evil and stand behind it. If Tony does turn bad, they'll probably just write it off as a side-effect of the Extremis and return him to normalcy within a year. The damage would be done right from the start, though. I'd just ditch Iron Man altogether if they actually made him evil because I know it'd ultimately go absolutely nowhere.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I was a bit surprised to see the New Warriors reduced to "amatuer" status....the group pretty much rescued a weakened Thor from the Juggernaut, and has even gone up against other heavy-hitters like the Sphinx in their earliest outings...

I was also surprised to learn that that was the original Night Thrasher. Ive only read the first volume of NW, so i wasnt aware of any changes...

And i always had a big crush on Namorita since MTIO #2...

I could see the team getting back together one day, with Justice, Firestar, Nova, Speedball, Rage, and maybe a few new characters like Arana....

The only problem is, Justice, Firestar, and Nova all seem to have moved on and "graduated" from the team. perhaps the death of their friends is enough to persuade them to return.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Oh, in regards to Iron Man; Like Corp said, its a love/hate thing.

I tend to get angry at him when he pulls stuff like he did with Titanium Man in Washington, but at the same time; intelligent, powerful guys like that are usually the types that have shaped history, and if nothing else you have to admire their attitude.

Whether or not thats a good or bad thing is for each person to decide for themselves, i guess.

 

[Tropico]

Yup, extremely annoyed at what happened to the Warriors. I've made a couple of posts like the one Dread made and how cleanly the NW's fit the bill to take the fall. Unlike him and other posters that are somewhat optimistic of what could happen with them, I only see it as Marvel taking this opportunity to grind them to the ground. I still think they're going to further drag Speedball through the mud and possibly have him commit suicide after becoming a pro-registration poster boy.

As for Tony, I wouldn't be surprised if the Extremis thing is what's causing his recent behavior.

 

[Artistsean]

I would be surprised if they just make this part of his character, that he isn't being manipulated at all. But they could always change that, even years later, by saying someone was manipulating him. For example in Avengers Forever.
(possible spoiler about Avengers Forever)
When it was revealed that Immortus maniulated Iron Man for some time.

Marvel will probably have Iron Man redeem himself in the end, do something to save or fix everything at the end of Civil War. They have to since he will have his own movie in 2008.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't be surprised if that happened, but I'd prefer it so much if Iron Man were just soundly defeated and shown the error of his ways, the registration act were repealed, and Iron Man and all the other pro-registration characters just had to deal with it. That could open interesting possibilities for a lot of characters.

 

[Dread]

Yup, extremely annoyed at what happened to the Warriors. I've made a couple of posts like the one Dread made and how cleanly the NW's fit the bill to take the fall. Unlike him and other posters that are somewhat optimistic of what could happen with them, I only see it as Marvel taking this opportunity to grind them to the ground. I still think they're going to further drag Speedball through the mud and possibly have him commit suicide after becoming a pro-registration poster boy.

As for Tony, I wouldn't be surprised if the Extremis thing is what's causing his recent behavior.

Its not the Extremis. I'm tellin' ya, the heroes will be lined up to oppose Iron Man, and then Ultron will be revealed to have been hidden inside his body for years, and then they merge into an ultimate "Irontron" form and attempt to take over the world before Quicksilver nearly sacrifices himself to the speed-force to stop him...sorry, I still can't help making JLU/CAMDUS ARC allusions. It just seems very simular at times. As for "evil Iron Man", that's been done before, not only with the Kang stuff during THE CROSSING and that Exiles story, but also that "alternate Tony" from Kirkman's MTU.

Its very possible that Speedball and the Warriors could be further run into the ground by CW; Speedball's definately going to go through a ringer in FRONTLINE and its very possible he could still end up a sacrificial lamb. But the appearence of the Warriors in SHE-HULK #8 is a good sign; hopefully the Marvel editorial staff wouldn't have included such a grouping if it wasn't going to do anything with it. Millar has claimed that he wants to drudge up some "forgotten players" in the MU for the arc. I mean, when was the last time the New Warriors were involved in ANY Marvel "event" in any fashion? Heck, their book'd been cancelled before ONSLAUGHT really hit. Sure, using deaths of a few of their founders and tarnishing their name as ratings hungry "rookie gloryhog heroes" is a major insult, but it gives the remaining Warriors something to fight for, and a real, substancial purpose for a relaunch that they haven't had in YEARS. All I am saying is that if Marvel wants to attempt to relaunch them, CW may provide the perfect oppurtunity. Lord knows what the fanbase may demand in 6-7 months when this story is over with, and Marvel knows it needs to constantly put out its A-game in some form to outperform DC, even though IC is over. YOUNG AVENGERS was a rare title already and will be MIA until next year after this month, despite a CW mini. A NW book could fill in the "young hero" gap after CW is over.

Or, of course, Marvel could bungle the New Warriors yet again, as they historically always have. Of course, only one of those bungles one could place on the lap of Joe Q's tenure, as the others long predated his EIC reign. In his "New Joe Friday", Joe pulled a 180 and claimed he "didn't hate Speedball" and just wanted to drum up interest and be a shill. Basically, nothing he says can be placed at 100% face value because the guy'd change his statements in a heartbeat if he could smell that a book somewhere could sell. If he thought a Speedball solo would sell 100,000 copies, he'd be talking about how "a classic Ditko creation he is" and all that. If not, he'd be all but offering a writer a bonus check for offing him. And I guess it would be unfair not to note that DC has also been willing to relaunch some books on the bodies of some "lessor teir" characters. Although I'd argue, again, that if you're a C or lower lister at DC, you probably have a better shot of being used effectively in some fashion that you do at Marvel.

 

[Trask]

Very true; many of the NEW WARRIORS are decently old characters who should be above "rookie" status. Nova came out in the 70's too, for instance.

Having characters remain "perennial" rookies wares very thin, and a case in point is actually USM. That title has been going around for over 5 years, almost 100 issues, and has Spider-Man really LEARNED anything about being a hero? Not really. He's still as likely to make newbie-ish, bone-headed mistakes (mistakes so blatent that even a semi-competant reader could roll his eyes and go, "oh, c'mon!") or find himself "overwhelmed" and "out of his element" amung "real heroes" (re: any superhero character, any one, who is not Spider-Man). Its the schtick of the title, but it is getting very old to see that USM is just as likely to get ambushed, sucker-punched, owned and unmasked in issue #95 as he was in issue #7 or something. That's not character progression. That's spin-cycle. And I LIKE USM.

Well it might have been around 100 issue and 5 years but in comic years I dont even think it has been a year for USM. Most of the USM story arcs are about 5 issues so when you think about it he has not had that many adventures. Also I would like to think that USM has learned a few things and while he might still make some errors he has shown that he has grown as spiderman. You have to remeber that the reason they launched USM is to show spiderman in his early years, when he was still young and inexperienced. It would be stupid to have him grow up too quickly, after all it took 616 spiderman over 40 years to reach the age he is now and I dont see him getting any older too quickly. I dont think they want USM and 616 Spiderman to be close in terms of age, so how quickly USM ages will be determined in part by how quickly 616 Spiderman ages.



I dont know why people dislike Tony so much? I mean he was the only one that has been shown to be fighting the registration act (before the disaster). Where was Cap and the rest of the hero community then? The registration act is not a new thing, and non of them where fighting the act while Tony was doing it almost single handedly. To me it seems stupid that they all wait until it is made into law before they decide to take any action. Everything that has happened has been predicted by Tony. He tried to warn all of them of what could happen if they did not take some kind of proactive action to take the steam out of the legistlation before something happens that would force it upon the hero community and they all ignored him.

Also Tony never forced Peter to reveal himself. All he did was tell him that he could not have Peter Parker working for Tony Stark if Spiderman was not going to register, and to me that seems like a reasonable thing to do especailly since Iron man will be leading the Pro-registration group. He did not force Peter to do anything, in fact if anyone forced his hand it would be Aunt May and Mary Jane. If you read that issue of Spider man you will see that he was going to run away until his aunt convinces him to stand up and face the world instead of running. In fact Tony never asked Peter to reveal his ID to the whole world, in fact he states in Front Line #1 that he or the government does not expect the heroes to "Come out" to the media, and he was just doing it for his own reasons.

Spiderman fans dont want to belive that peter would come out on his own so they prefer to belive that Tony is forcing him to do it against his will. Sure Tony does not tell him everything he does, but he does tell him a whole lot of stuff and I belive that he really wants someone he can trust to watch his back and he belives that person is Peter. It does not look to me like he is looking to use him, especailly since lets face it Spiderman is not a big hitter when it comes to Superheroes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It does seem odd that no one else has even mentioned the registration act yet.

 

[Tropico]

I thought it was priviliged information that Tony got because of his former position in the govt. and they wanted his opinion on it?

 

[Tropico]

In his "New Joe Friday", Joe pulled a 180 and claimed he "didn't hate Speedball" and just wanted to drum up interest and be a shill. Basically, nothing he says can be placed at 100% face value because the guy'd change his statements in a heartbeat if he could smell that a book somewhere could sell. If he thought a Speedball solo would sell 100,000 copies, he'd be talking about how "a classic Ditko creation he is" and all that. If not, he'd be all but offering a writer a bonus check for offing him.

Yeah, I remember that. He said that it was after seeing how people reacted to Sue Dibny's death and he wanted to get that same kind of attention for a character.

 

[deemar325]

Does no one see the potential direction they could take Tony? They could sort of do what they did in Exiles and make him get MUCH darker, slightly evil, but without anyone realising it.

True it would be ballsy turning Iron Man evil, but it doesn't have to be permenant...

I just thought it was really creepy how how he manipulated everyone in that world to become it's 'benevolent' leader, and I think they could kinda do something like that here.

I see the potential and it's not completely out of character for Tony (If any Avengers was gonna support the SHRA it would be Tony) It's the extremes they are taking Ironman, but I gotta say I haven't been this interested in Ironman in years.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought it was priviliged information that Tony got because of his former position in the govt. and they wanted his opinion on it?

Was it? That would make sense, then.

 

[deemar325]

Was it? That would make sense, then.

Makes sense to me also, Tony is an insider. He's not a regular in any definition of the word.