Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry this happened to you. This whole situation can be summed up with what I mentioned earlier that goes for both religious and non religious types:



And when quoting my post, you forgot an important part, which is important here:



People have a way of corrupting even the noblest of things. They can turn the most innocent thing into a horrendous one. And they can and quite often do use whatever they can find as a soap box, whether its money, positions of power, politics...religion is not safe from this either, sadly.



I'm not validating how they went about this at all, but it seems like its really not a matter of you simply disagreeing with their faith and them harassing your for it. It seems like you have some deeply personal issues with religion in general (with situations like this, its understandable, though) which might cause you to be more sensitive to these types of situations that one might normally.

Which do you think is more likely:

1) Your family, whom is supposed to love you, doesn't and would rather openly insult your qualities and character then listen to anything you have to say

2) Your family has good intentions, but extremely poor communication/social skills coupled with your own issues/sensitivity concerning the matter created the issue



First of all, the way she handled this by your recount was quite poor. Gross, even. That is NOT how you reach people. Secondly, and more importantly, don't misinterpret what they say, however they happen to say it (i know this is better said than done). It has NOTHING to do with not being "good enough". We're all a bunch of crazy, selfish, mistake-ridden bags of flesh blindly trying to find our place in the world. Christianity, salvation, heaven, its never about being good enough. Its about saying "hey, I'm not perfect, but I don't need to be to get into heaven. Jesus took care of it", and trying to live a good life through Jesus' example. Believing in God doesn't make you superior to others, and those who think so are in for a rude awakening. I'm deeply sorry the way she handled it was so poor, but I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't meant as an insult since the nature of the matter couldnt be further from it.

All that being said, just based on your story, I don't blame you for being disappointed in your families church, if that's the type of congregation it has. It'd be best to stay away from that one. There ARE good churches out there if you ever decide to give it another go. I promise.

Everything that you stated is the beef that I have with religion. If there is indeed a God (and honestly, I do believe there is, just as I stated in my other post, I don't believe in God the same way most religious types do), I think it's rather arrogant of man to think that they can truly relate God's word. I see many (not all) religious institutions as nothing more than a corruption of God's word for their own agenda, whatever that may be.

I think it's a bit of arrogance, and self importance, that when something goes right in someone's life, they claim that God had something to do with it, as if they, out of everyone in the world, was important enough for God to make their lives right. Someone else made a post earlier about when things are looking down in his life, instead of looking for God to guidance, he has a good think about the situation and what HE can do to make it better. And that's exactly how I view it as well. God isn't there to answer my prayers and take care of things in my life. In fact, I don't believe God plays an active role in life at all.

As far as what is more likely, I think that your second option is more likely. I don't, for a second think that they have some kind of hatred for me. I do understand their methods were "best of intentions", but I believe their methods were an awful way of going about things.

As far as personal issues go, I'm not exactly sure what those issues would be. I certainly didn't grow up in a religious family - in fact my mother is an atheist even. My dad identifies as a Christian, but he is not a church goer, and my parents never took me to church. From a young age, I had a curiosity and interest in religion and going to church, and even wanted to, but it never happened due to my parents' beliefs. My first experience in a church was with a friend. I had a sleepover, and because he was going to church the next morning, his grandparents said that I could stay over if I wanted to go to Sunday school with my friend the next morning. So I did.

It was a baptist church, and from even a young age I knew that what I was being taught was something that I didn't agree with. But even my atheist mother didn't try to use that circumstance to discourage me from going to church. She told me that it was an issue with that particular church.

I've had plenty of experiences in church since then. My grandmother, and my aunt and uncle went to a church in Reno that I often attended when I'd visit my family up there. It was, overall, a positive experience. And when I visited my grandmother on her deathbed in the hospital, and her preacher from that church came to give her her last rights, it was, for me, a very positive religious experience overall.

Visiting my brother and his family, before I even moved out here, I attended their church with my sister-in-law. I thought it was a rather positive experience.

I've always been very open to the idea of religion and church. I had a personal point of view on organized religion as a whole (which is, it's unnecessary. I don't need a church to worship God, I worship God by doing good on this planet, that's my philosophy). And when I finally moved here, I went with my brother and his family to their church on a number of occasions, and I also went with a good friend to his church as well (he is an ordained minister, and when we first met, he made his view on religion and how he thought I needed it very clear, but after our initial conversation where I also made my beliefs very clear, we let it be and outside of an occasional joke here or there done in fun, he never tried to pressure me on his religion). Overall, church just isn't for me. I always tried to be VERY respectful of my brother and his religion and the values he tried to instill in his children, even when I didn't agree with them.

I'm not sure what pre-existing issues I have with religion, other than the fact that organized religion simply isn't for me. There is one thing you are right about, and that's the last thing that you've said. I was even thinking about that tonight before I came home and saw your reply to me. There certainly are good churches out there, and I *WOULD* attend a church again. I would probably never become a member of one, because as I've stated church simply isn't my thing. But I would attend church again for family functions, or special occasions or what have you. I just will never again attend World Outreach Church (my brother's church). I do not like what they preach (something that I was beginning to realize the last couple times I attended there before there was even any kind of falling out) and I certainly do not like their view on issues in the community.

There is one aspect I will agree with you on, when you say I have deeper issues and I reacted in a way that most people probably wouldn't - there was a lot of tension buildup for other issues with that family before it all finally came to a head and I was told I had no values, and that I was going to hell. This family knows full well what my political beliefs were, and I'd go into that house and they would openly insult my way of thinking (not insult me directly, but just talk amongst each other while I'm in the room about how that line of thinking was stupid). Overall, the experience of working with my sister-in-law was one of the worst experiences of my life. I felt so disrespected by everyone in that house everytime I would go over there. There are certainly issues that run deeper with those people than just the religion factor, so perhaps that's what you were talking about by me having issues. But honestly, I have a lot of tension living in this state that I live in in general. Ever since I've moved here 3 years ago, I've had people harp on me about religion in different ways. Not all of them were quite as serious, but I've never been accepted out here for my religious beliefs. Well at least not until I got into college and started associating with a bunch of like minded people. But out in the community, I have a hard time being accepted when it comes to religion and politics because this area is so hardcore Bible thumping Christian conservative that me being an Agnostic Liberal, I am a fish out of water, compared to when I was living in California and the people who were religious believed in religion as a PART OF THEIR LIFE, not the defining attribute of their life, and they kept their religious beliefs to their PERSONAL life, where I believe it belongs, instead of making it a public ordeal.

I'm not closed minded enough to believe that my bad experiences are representative of religious people or religion on a whole. In fact, to be honest I've had too many good experiences with religion and religious people to think that. But since moving to the south, I have had way too many negative experiences with religion that I am cautious and guarded when dealing with religious people, including my own family. And I hate that because of religion, I have to act that way towards members of my own family. I really don't care about my brother's aunt and uncle, they aren't my family, they are his mom's family (we have different mothers). Hell, I don't even care about my sister-in-law, as much as she's done for me - that's his wife. But he's my freaking brother, and I hate that I feel like I have to put my guard up around my own brother. Of course there's reasons for that beyond just religion, and I guess that goes back to someone else's point about the problem being with the person, and not the religion, but it's still a feeling that I hate feeling, knowing first hand how judgmental they are towards people who do things differently than they do.

I'm sorry, I think I've rambled at this point, but just know that as jaded and guarded as I am towards religion and religious people, in no way do I associate all of religion or all religious people with these bad experiences. Religion certainly can be a good thing. But it's not for me, I've come up with my own world view that works for me, and no matter how much religion may work for someone else or they may just have my "best interests" in mind, I'd really appreciate it if they could respect MY beliefs and let me have them without judgment or harassment about their beliefs.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Nell2ThaIzzay, I also have had some negative experiences with a religious family member, although it hasn't been as openly negative as you've experienced.


My cousin is a super-Christian(for lack of a better term, and thats not necessarily meant as an insult to anyone; I'm going to try to be fair here). Everything he does is seen through a filter of Christianity. He seemingly cannot step outside his own perspective for one minute and look at things from my point of view. Because of this we have had a rocky relationship over the past 5 or 6 years...we are not as close as I'd like to be because I would rather not have to deal with his judgments of my lifestyle and choices.


So, I've tried to be closer to him in the past few months, but this move backfired last week. One night I was feeling a little depressed and lonely, and in a moment I would like to take back, I decided to call him...I ended up leaving a voicemail describing how I felt in that moment. Bad move. He texts me a few days later saying he just listened to my voicemail. We proceed to have a conversation about happiness and joy...and how from both our perspectives we probably have different views on what it means or how to achieve it.


Then my cousin states that, "The only true source of joy is God, but you don't acknowledge it." To which I respectfully replied, "I don't acknowledge it because I have doubts that God exists" (not an attack on his beliefs, but an accurate statement of my own views right now). He texts back something to the effect that, "You will continue to wallow in darkness and search for joy in vain."


So yeah...I tried to confide in him telling I felt a little down and lonely, and he turned it into "I will never find joy or happiness in my life until I declare faith in Jesus". Its like I can't have a real conversation with the guy without God coming up. Its rather annoying. I don't mind discussing religion and faith with people. In fact I have a lot of college friends that are Christian...and we always discuss religion respectfully. But with my cousin, he gets so argumentative whenever I disagree or bring up some scientific theory, such as Big Bang.


Spider-Who? it would be nice if all Christians were like you. Respectful and actually interested in having a real dialogue.


Nell2ThaIzzay it is unfortunate that your family chose to ostrasize you for standing up for something that you believed in. I have had difficulty in not taking somethings my cousin has said to me directly to heart. I've had to learn to not take what he says too seriously, ya know. To not be so sensitive. Deep down, I know he means the best, that he wants me to be happy. He just doesn't know how to show it without channeling the judgmental Christian inside him. Its something I've had to comet to terms with and learn to live with. I'm hoping you will be able to come to terms with your family. They may not respect yours views...but, there is nothing stopping you from being the better man, and still respect their's.

who the heck tries to evangelize through text messages? The "you shall forever wallow in blackness and misery" line gets me. I get what he was trying to say - as any none believer-turned-believer (myself included) will tell you, one could be extremely happy on their own, but once they truly know the love of God, THAT's when they really know what happiness and peace feels like. In the same vein, having a relationship with God helps heal emotional wounds. Certainly did (and does) for me.

From my own personal experience, when ever I would get pissed/insulted at those "crazy christians" for telling me in so many words that I would go to hell, or some other such thing, I realized that a lot of my negative reaction to it was not what or even how they were saying it, but it purely came from my own head. I didn't want to hear that God knew my dirty secrets, knew my emotional weaknesses. I didnt want to hear that I would go to hell. It was a total slap in the face to my ego. But its true. Its not an easy thing to have a mirror placed in front of you, to have your humility put in check. It took a lot of will power to face that fact. To accept that I wasn't perfect. And strangely, it took even MORE strength and will power to accept that I DIDN'T NEED to be perfect. That I was accepted the way I was. And once I accepted that, the ego began to fade, the defensive wall I had put up crumbled and I was open and receptive to what the bible said. It was a total growing and rebirth process; nothing at all like flicking a light switch. You really discover yourself in that process.

...I dunno, take what you will from that ramble.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Religion can also help you live a longer and healthier life. Which is why a lot of them outlive people like you, that are so angry all of the time, that they have to cuss in every single sentence. Not to mention bash another person's beliefs. Not going to argue with you, but this is the type of nonsense that keeps me out of threads like this.

okay...you're not helping anything...

 

[Spider-Who?]

Nell, I'll get back to you tomorrow...i gotta be up for work in 3 hours.... : /

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Nell2ThaIzzay, I also have had some negative experiences with a religious family member, although it hasn't been as openly negative as you've experienced.


My cousin is a super-Christian(for lack of a better term, and thats not necessarily meant as an insult to anyone; I'm going to try to be fair here). Everything he does is seen through a filter of Christianity. He seemingly cannot step outside his own perspective for one minute and look at things from my point of view. Because of this we have had a rocky relationship over the past 5 or 6 years...we are not as close as I'd like to be because I would rather not have to deal with his judgments of my lifestyle and choices.


So, I've tried to be closer to him in the past few months, but this move backfired last week. One night I was feeling a little depressed and lonely, and in a moment I would like to take back, I decided to call him...I ended up leaving a voicemail describing how I felt in that moment. Bad move. He texts me a few days later saying he just listened to my voicemail. We proceed to have a conversation about happiness and joy...and how from both our perspectives we probably have different views on what it means or how to achieve it.


Then my cousin states that, "The only true source of joy is God, but you don't acknowledge it." To which I respectfully replied, "I don't acknowledge it because I have doubts that God exists" (not an attack on his beliefs, but an accurate statement of my own views right now). He texts back something to the effect that, "You will continue to wallow in darkness and search for joy in vain."


So yeah...I tried to confide in him telling I felt a little down and lonely, and he turned it into "I will never find joy or happiness in my life until I declare faith in Jesus". Its like I can't have a real conversation with the guy without God coming up. Its rather annoying. I don't mind discussing religion and faith with people. In fact I have a lot of college friends that are Christian...and we always discuss religion respectfully. But with my cousin, he gets so argumentative whenever I disagree or bring up some scientific theory, such as Big Bang.


Spider-Who? it would be nice if all Christians were like you. Respectful and actually interested in having a real dialogue.


Nell2ThaIzzay it is unfortunate that your family chose to ostrasize you for standing up for something that you believed in. I have had difficulty in not taking somethings my cousin has said to me directly to heart. I've had to learn to not take what he says too seriously, ya know. To not be so sensitive. Deep down, I know he means the best, that he wants me to be happy. He just doesn't know how to show it without channeling the judgmental Christian inside him. Its something I've had to comet to terms with and learn to live with. I'm hoping you will be able to come to terms with your family. They may not respect yours views...but, there is nothing stopping you from being the better man, and still respect their's.

I'm sorry to hear that story. Unfortunately, I can relate. The story specifically that I talked about in my post didn't include that type of stuff, but it's certainly happened.

I admit, I'm a bit of a Facebook ****e, and there was one time when I was rather down about something, and I made a Facebook status stating that I was upset. I didn't go into detail about what, and by now I don't even remember what it was, but sure as ****, my brother's cousin responds with that type of rhetoric, talking about how Jesus is the true path to happiness, and how he didn't find true happiness until he found Jesus. And I also can't count the number of times my brother, or someone in his family has responded to something I said on Facebook by bringing up the Bible and how awesome it is. This was all before the tension and falling out, so I kept my displeasure with it to myself, because I didn't want to cause a ruckus.

Not that standing up for myself would have mattered. My brother and I had our reconciliation in November, and over Christmas, I was at his house to visit the family on Christmas Eve. I told him I didn't want to go over to his aunt and uncle's house on Christmas morning, because I felt uncomfortable around them after the way I had been treated in their house over that summer. Instead of trying to understand my feelings, all he did was defend their actions by using the "my best interest" card. So he basically guilt tripped me into going over to their house for Christmas, despite me clearly explaining to him why I was uncomfortable.

I'm sorry you had that experience with your cousin. It seems like those particular religious types (again I want to make it clear I'm not speaking about religious people in general) use your periods of weakness as their opportunity to jump in and shove their beliefs down their throat. All I can say for me is that the best vindication is that I've found true happiness MYSELF, and I didn't need their religion (or any religion, for that matter) to find it. I found myself, and who I am, and what I want out of life, and I started striving for it. And that's what's brought me true happiness. That's my vindication towards those particular relatives. I hope that you can find your's.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

Nelly2ThaiIzzay...I feel ya pain bro. Moved to the south from Michigan in HS. I haven't had that many openly negative experiences with strangers, just a few from my cousin and a few friends.

I don't know, I think it has to do with Christianity claiming it is THE truth. Jesus saying, "I am the way, the truth, the life. No man shall come to the Father but through me." Verses like that in the New Testament make Christians concerned about their friends and family that do not believe. They are afraid if they don't believe in Jesus like they do, they will go to hell. I have a feeling that is why you're family is treating you that way. Its not because they hate you or disrespect your views. Its because they desparately want to you to believe what they believe, so you will all go to heaven together. Like Spider-who? said, its from a place of love and good intentions, however misguided they might be.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

All I can say for me is that the best vindication is that I've found true happiness MYSELF, and I didn't need their religion (or any religion, for that matter) to find it. I found myself, and who I am, and what I want out of life, and I started striving for it. And that's what's brought me true happiness. That's my vindication towards those particular relatives. I hope that you can find your's.

To quote the Nard Dog, "Nailed it!!" Couldn't have said it better myself. Life is a struggle sometimes, but its the struggles that make the triumphs and successes that much more rewarding. Life isn't handed out to you either. If you want soemthing, you have to go get it. Not wait for God or someone else to hand it to you. It comes down to our choices. "It is our choices that show what we truly are..." (Dumbledore). Finding oneself is a rather difficult proposition for some. I think I'm just now starting to find myself. I hope to find myself completely over the next year or so. (i.e. I'm going back to school).

 

[Bubonic]

Don't pray for me. Pretty clever little video.

[YT]1kbiUiRfnh8[/YT]

The trouble with Christianity, another video by this guy.

[YT]CqfE2rZVmXE[/YT]

I doubt anyone who should watch it will though.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

From my own personal experience, when ever I would get pissed/insulted at those "crazy christians" for telling me in so many words that I would go to hell, or some other such thing, I realized that a lot of my negative reaction to it was not what or even how they were saying it, but it purely came from my own head. I didn't want to hear that God knew my dirty secrets, knew my emotional weaknesses. I didnt want to hear that I would go to hell. It was a total slap in the face to my ego. But its true. Its not an easy thing to have a mirror placed in front of you, to have your humility put in check. It took a lot of will power to face that fact. To accept that I wasn't perfect. And strangely, it took even MORE strength and will power to accept that I DIDN'T NEED to be perfect. That I was accepted the way I was. And once I accepted that, the ego began to fade, the defensive wall I had put up crumbled and I was open and receptive to what the bible said. It was a total growing and rebirth process; nothing at all like flicking a light switch. You really discover yourself in that process.

...I dunno, take what you will from that ramble.

Spider-who? I understand where you are coming from. In order to believe in Christianity you have to buy the part of the Gospel stating that we are all broken, sinful people. I know that I'm not perfect. I know that I make mistakes all the time. But it doesn't mean that I need God. To be honest, Spider-who? I've had a time in college when I was a Christian. For about a year or two. Most of my Christian friends are those I made in that time in college. Anyway...I have a hard time buying the premise that we are all sinful based on Genesis...Adam and Eve eating the apple from the Tree of Good and Evil. Is that supposed to be a metaphor? I hope so...because the story with the Serpent is quite unbelievable.

Thats just one example of something from the Bible I have a problem with. Honestly we could probably talk about Christianity for a long time...there are a lot of different topics and issues contained therein. I'm game if you are.

 

[TheIncredibleSk]

Religion can also help you live a longer and healthier life. Which is why a lot of them outlive people like you, that are so angry all of the time, that they have to cuss in every single sentence. Not to mention bash another person's beliefs. Not going to argue with you, but this is the type of nonsense that keeps me out of threads like this.

Lol I have no anger in me. I just cuss like a sailor because of my dad and sometimes it just make sentences feel more emotional. But ill take advice

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, actually, a couple of recent studies have linked religiosity to obesity... not that there's a total lack of fat atheists.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Those videos were awesome.

Unfortunately, it reminds me of the other problem I have with specific religious types - they can talk to me all they want about their religion, but I'm sure if I were to show them those videos, all hell would break loose.

 

[Bubonic]

It usually degrades to something like this.
[YT]W2Rdf0n_Lsg[/YT]

 

[TheIncredibleSk]

That guy is great.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

Just watched the videos as well. Have to say...can't argue with anything that guy said. He laid it out pretty clearly...and I tend to agree with him.

 

[JAK®]

http://www.ranker.com/list/god-is-an-epic-troll-the-best-of-the-advice-god-meme/robert-wabash

 

[Bubonic]

^^
I'm in tears here!

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Most people are rational people, regardless of their faith or creed. When you encounter a religious person that you feel doesn't accept you, have you looked at the dialogue from their perspective? I think most often, you'll see that what you perceive to be a lack of acceptance is really compassion based on their religious perspective. For example, the Bible tells Christians to spread the word of Christ so that others can be saved. People want to show others this gift that God gave through Jesus' sacrifice - that we all, regardless of ourselves, can be "saved" and go to Heaven. Christians, through love of others and their desire to help others receive this gift express such notions when confronted by those of opposing thought. It is not a selfish, diabolical or intolerant intent. Some times, their positive intentions come off as negative or pushy - being religious by no means equates to being perfect. But their intention is a good one.

Honestly. Science is a marvelous thing; it truly astounds me what we as a species have discovered, invented, come to understand. And there is so much more to be discovered and understood. I personally find the more theoretical aspects like quantum theory utterly fascinating. I will ask this of you, however: take everything you just said, everything you feel about the above, and put it in the mind of a religious person thinking about God. That same passion, joy and love, marveling at the works and wonders of our reality, our existence...its all there in the mind of the religious as well. To me, science tells us the how. God tells me the why.

On the first paragraph -

The trouble is, that while from your perspective it is a kindness, from my perspective it is an assumption that you are right over me. That you are trying to 'save' me, and that you know better.

Actually seeing all that written down it IS exactly the same on both sides.

Trouble is, whether it is your faith or your proof that has lead to it, both sides are sooooo sure that they do feel it neccesary to try to help the other understand what they consider 'the truth'.

On the second paragraph -

Science tells us there is no why.

Why is it so important that there be a why, a reason, a purpose?

Why can't people just exist and live life, just because, and not for any higher purpose or grand scheme?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Humans need a why. That's what separates them from other animals.

 

[JAK®]

Science tells us there is no why.

No it doesn't. Science doesn't give a reason for existing but that is not the same as saying there is no reason why.

Not saying there is a reason why but science does not make claims such as that.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Okay I'll rephrase it.

Science tells ME there is no why.

And I don't believe there is a need for one.

In fact I think any 'Why' causes me a problem, because it implies that the horrendous things that happen in this world are SUPPOSED too happen.

I can accept tragedy in my world, because it is as spontaneous, unpredictable and random as beauty is.

 

[Bubonic]

I do hate how some of the religious write off everything as God's will, or God's plan, especially when we live in a world where infant babies and raped and killed by their own parents.

 

[Spider-Who?]

^^^ People like that tend to forget about the funny little thing called free will.



I listened to the second video while getting settled in at work. I don’t have much time right now to offer any fleshed out counter-argument (believe, me there is one), but I will gladly do so later in the day. For now though, I’ll preface my coming remarks with this:

The vast majority of what he had to say is based on little more than misunderstanding, misinterpretation , and simple twisting of words; not to mention blatantly ignoring important aspects of the bible and history – which is the very thing he was damning religious people in the video for. He’s being a total hypocrite.

I’ll go into how and why this is this evening (I got a 3 hour all hands meeting at work this afternoon, so I gotta rush to met my daily deadline this morning…oh joy…).

 

[Spider-Who?]

Spider-who? I understand where you are coming from. In order to believe in Christianity you have to buy the part of the Gospel stating that we are all broken, sinful people. I know that I'm not perfect. I know that I make mistakes all the time. But it doesn't mean that I need God. To be honest, Spider-who? I've had a time in college when I was a Christian. For about a year or two. Most of my Christian friends are those I made in that time in college. Anyway...I have a hard time buying the premise that we are all sinful based on Genesis...Adam and Eve eating the apple from the Tree of Good and Evil. Is that supposed to be a metaphor? I hope so...because the story with the Serpent is quite unbelievable.

Thats just one example of something from the Bible I have a problem with. Honestly we could probably talk about Christianity for a long time...there are a lot of different topics and issues contained therein. I'm game if you are.

Sure, man. I’d like to discuss some of the things you mentioned above, but like I mentioned in my post above, it’ll have to wait till later today (I’m sadly not getting paid to surf the Hype, lol!)

....aaaaand back to work!

 

[JAK®]

^^^ People like that tend to forget about the funny little thing called free will.

But God knows everything, including what will happen in the future. By creating free will, he has set in motion every single act of evil that ever has and ever will exist, and let it happen.