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Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

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redhawk23, I agree with what you said. Emotions are important and vital for us to live...to have meaningful lives. I was just pointing out that often, emotion gets in the way of us wanting to see the real truth. Once we grow up we (most of us) get set in our ways, and when someone comes along trying to upset our core beliefs or views, we deny then incessantly. We would rather live a comfortable lie that is in line with our emotions, than be challenged with the "truth".

Because our emotions affect are ability to know things...to truly know what the truth is...I have a hard time being confident that I know anything. What is truth? How do you know something is true? Can I trust my own experience? Because someone else tells you its true? Because millions of others believe it?
 
We as people, have emotions. This is not a bad thing. We are not robots. We are not purely rational and we place value on things in emotional ways. A devotion to reason isn't necessarily about the absense of emotion, simply to seek a balance. We can have emotions, feelings but choose to react to them in reasonable ways.

Taking an entirely rational machine-like views leads to things like Doctor Manhattan in Watchmen saying things like, "A dead body and a living one have the same number of molecules."

Our emotional capacities allow us to understand eachother, and place value on things such as life itself.

Emotions are a way to a certain type of understanding, but it is a subjective truth.

The problems arise when people start stating their personal subjective truths as absolute, infallible objective Truth.
You and I are on the same page.
 
I was born into a Roman Catholic family and as I grew up my parents made me go to church. I always hated it, thought it was boring and it was repetitive. And as a child, you can't really think for yourself as much, so you tend to listen to your parents or a higher authority and you believe in it. But gradually as I got older, I just didn't agree or buy into some things the religion entails.

Last year I pretty much decided I was agnostic, but now I consider myslef an atheist. It doesn't bother me that there isn't an afterlife after death. I dont' want to waste time worrying about it. Even though I respect a person's beliefs, it's hard for me to not judge or think of some snide remark whenever God is brought into something. But a second later I have to accept their belief. I just don't get why people think God has everything to do with everything. Belief is fine. Everybody should have a belief, but a belief doesn't equate to religion.

Religion can be a good guide or morals, but you don't need religion to know right from wrong. Despite me going to church in those early years and being taught about God, my parents and my experiences were the sources for my forming and my values. I don't see how you can't be raised with religion and not turn out fine. Plus it doesn't help that issues like gay marriage makes religious people look contradictory. That gets me steamed.

I firmly believe in individualism and choice. There is no one else who makes our decisions except ourselves. We are in control of our lives. God has nothing to do with it. Not one spiritual being that we've only heard about. If people want to believe that, that's fine.

And if there is a God, wouldn't he want us to do things for ourselves to learn? People think he's the answer and solution to their problems.

I've already told my mom I'm an atheist, but I'm afraid of how my dad will react. He was the one who made us go to church, and even if we haven't been to church in four years, my brother and mom also believe in God. Plus with my grandmother passing away who was very religious, I don't think he'll take it very well. I have to tell him sometime. He might think it was his fault but I just have to tell him it's my decision and he had nothing to do with it.
 
Is that really a paradox?
Just because God would suddenly exist wouldn't mean you'd have to worship him, well, up to the point he got Old Testament on our asses and brought down the fire and brimstone, at which point I'd point out his level of maturity.
No no no, you wouldn't be an atheist if you believed God existed and you didn't worship him. You'd be a dystheist. And I can assure you if any indisputable evidence did crop up for his existence, this would be my position. If he wasn't a fairytale, fact of the matter is he'd be malevolent from my point of view.
 
I forget where I heard this but I recall something along the lines of Human intelligence being a cosmic joke. The human mind is built to learn at such a rapid rate (in comparison to the rest of life on our planet) that we seek to create patterns in everything we interact with.

This method of learning has allowed us to take our place as rulers of this planet; but it has also served to imbed itself in our lives, as it is an ability we cannot readily control of disable.

Human art, in all its forms, are examples of this. More to the point, modern science is what we currently hold as our standard for understanding our own world. The attempt of the human mind to create pattern and reason to the world around us.

The unfortunate thing is that given what we have learned and hypothesized about the universe, there is no calculable way for us to understand it all. Not without us redefining what being human is. Not sure if any of you are aware of the theory of the "singularity" that Time magazine wrote about recently.

Summing it all up. Religion and Spirituality is the remainder of what we have yet to comprehend and explain.

It will always exist as our minds will always seek to understand more than we are capable of. The irony being that it is this same spirituality that has inspired us to make breakthroughs in what we define as science.

and if you take a close look of what we know and what we have yet to learn, science in itself requires a lot of faith as much of what we have learned is through cause and effect, we assume based on theories, until they can be dis-proven.
 
redhawk23, I agree with what you said. Emotions are important and vital for us to live...to have meaningful lives. I was just pointing out that often, emotion gets in the way of us wanting to see the real truth. Once we grow up we (most of us) get set in our ways, and when someone comes along trying to upset our core beliefs or views, we deny then incessantly. We would rather live a comfortable lie that is in line with our emotions, than be challenged with the "truth".

Because our emotions affect are ability to know things...to truly know what the truth is...I have a hard time being confident that I know anything. What is truth? How do you know something is true? Can I trust my own experience? Because someone else tells you its true? Because millions of others believe it?


Well see thats just the issue in the end. Since we rely on our senses to experience the world absolute objectivity is impossible. We are dependent, always, upon a certain degree of subjective experience. One could argue that is the underlying purpose of the scientific method, along with other sources of error to remove as much subjectivity as possible. But rationality and methodology in observation are bunk if you are really floating around in a pod being used as a battery by our allpower robot overlords. :cwink:

Though emotional understanding can get in the way of the pursuit of objective understanding, it is not without merit. The thing is one persons emotional understanding is not more valid than the next. When it comes to personal experience, life is relative.

"From a certain point of view."
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I forget where I heard this but I recall something along the lines of Human intelligence being a cosmic joke. The human mind is built to learn at such a rapid rate (in comparison to the rest of life on our planet) that we seek to create patterns in everything we interact with.

This method of learning has allowed us to take our place as rulers of this planet; but it has also served to imbed itself in our lives, as it is an ability we cannot readily control of disable.

Human art, in all its forms, are examples of this. More to the point, modern science is what we currently hold as our standard for understanding our own world. The attempt of the human mind to create pattern and reason to the world around us.

The unfortunate thing is that given what we have learned and hypothesized about the universe, there is no calculable way for us to understand it all. Not without us redefining what being human is. Not sure if any of you are aware of the theory of the "singularity" that Time magazine wrote about recently.

Summing it all up. Religion and Spirituality is the remainder of what we have yet to comprehend and explain.

It will always exist as our minds will always seek to understand more than we are capable of. The irony being that it is this same spirituality that has inspired us to make breakthroughs in what we define as science.

and if you take a close look of what we know and what we have yet to learn, science in itself requires a lot of faith as much of what we have learned is through cause and effect, we assume based on theories, until they can be dis-proven.

Scientific theories are not the same as the colloquial use of the word "theory." In science, a theory is a conceptual framework made up of observed evidence. If new evidence comes to light, the theory is modified. It is not assumed that the theory is necessary absolutely correct or at least fully correct. How we we think of the parts of an atom is a theoretical model. It has developed overtime and has changed drastically as more has been learned. At no point was it assumed that how we thought about them was exactly how they worked. No theory is assumed to be unassailable or infallible. The same cannot be said of people's faiths.
 
Scientific theories are not the same as the colloquial use of the word "theory." In science, a theory is a conceptual framework made up of observed evidence. If new evidence comes to light, the theory is modified. It is not assumed that the theory is necessary absolutely correct or at least fully correct. How we we think of the parts of an atom is a theoretical model. It has developed overtime and has changed drastically as more has been learned. At no point was it assumed that how we thought about them was exactly how they worked. No theory is assumed to be unassailable or infallible. The same cannot be said of people's faiths.

One could argue that there are those that take science to extremes the same way people can take faith to an extreme but it would be better to consider that the majority of people base their fundamental truths on what can be proven but may still leave room for faith in what can not be proven.

the argument does not have to be black and white in that you either believe in a god or you don't believe in anything outside of science.

You do have a strong argument and it's hard to argue with what has taken our society years to study, prove, and reprove only to have someone refute that proof with a single statement "god did it."

You could also explore the fundamental ground work of "theory" to faith and religion. That those of faith will have faith in something being created by God until proven otherwise, their faith will then modify itself to consider new observational evidence. Unfortunately, the real world suffers from ignorant minded people set in their ways.

That being said, we used to live in a world where the greatest minds were 100% convinced that the world was flat based on the "fact" that we stood in place.
 
One could argue that there are those that take science to extremes the same way people can take faith to an extreme but it would be better to consider that the majority of people base their fundamental truths on what can be proven but may still leave room for faith in what can not be proven.

the argument does not have to be black and white in that you either believe in a god or you don't believe in anything outside of science.

You do have a strong argument and it's hard to argue with what has taken our society years to study, prove, and reprove only to have someone refute that proof with a single statement "god did it."

You could also explore the fundamental ground work of "theory" to faith and religion. That those of faith will have faith in something being created by God until proven otherwise, their faith will then modify itself to consider new observational evidence. Unfortunately, the real world suffers from ignorant minded people set in their ways.

That being said, we used to live in a world where the greatest minds were 100% convinced that the world was flat based on the "fact" that we stood in place.

You are correct that people take scientific observation as absolute truth to a degree of faith, however these individuals therefore lack an actual understanding of the purpose of the scientific method or what it can provide.

And there are most definitely people of faith who take the position you describe, adjusting as new information is revealed. However, as you point out there are a vast number of closed minded people.
The same can be said of the scientific community of course. There are those who are so completely closed off to new theories ideas that they will deliberately downplay new evidence. Many times new theories take a long time to take hold, no matter how well supported. There are those that would have science simply rest on it laurels, forgetting that there is always something new to explore, new angles to pursue.

It reminds me of a quote from Dracula actually.

At one point Van Helsing remarks that "It is the fault of our science that it attempts to explain all, and when it explains not, it simply says that there is nothing to explain."

(that quote may not be completely accurate but its fairly close)

However, despite the stubbornness felt within certain fields of the scientific community, the point of science is to constantly seek new information and remove error from what we already know. In contrast,
at least in the case of many organized religions, the pursuit of new information is actually discouraged.

In the Bible, God expells Adam and Eve from the garden for eating from the tree of Knowledge and they saw that they were naked. God according to this story wanted humanity to live in ignorance. To know the world inherently means to know pain.

This story is reflected in the attitudes of much of the religious establishment in the western world in regards to observing the world. I sometimes wonder how secure they could possibly be in their faith if they are so greatly offended by any questioning of it. A re-examination of religious beliefs is not the same a rejection of them. In fact, wouldn't it allow people a deeper connection if they knew more about the reasoning behind their faiths lessons?

The book of Genesis is one of my most primary problems with the bible, not because of how it relates to theories of evolution or the age of the universe, but just how it rejects and villifies knowledge. Perhaps in the garden, where no pain existed, ignorance was preferred. In real life, at currently, ignorance is not bliss. Things can still hurt you, but you have no explaination for it. At least if you examine the world you have a fighting chance of at least understanding your problems and potentially of avoiding them.
 
That the world is round has been known since at least the 6 century BC (i'm not sure who or when but there was at least one Greek mathematician who figured it out) and has been accepted on a basis of empiracle evidence since the time Aristotle.
 
One could argue that there are those that take science to extremes the same way people can take faith to an extreme but it would be better to consider that the majority of people base their fundamental truths on what can be proven but may still leave room for faith in what can not be proven.

That's just general Atheism, rejecting god(s). But there are those who are trying to make Atheism like a religion, so I get what you're saying.

the argument does not have to be black and white in that you either believe in a god or you don't believe in anything outside of science.

True, but the two don't go hand in hand. Religion doesn't require to look for answers because, ultimately, all answers= God and science is trying to understand the world without having to just say "because *insert deity* did it".

You do have a strong argument and it's hard to argue with what has taken our society years to study, prove, and reprove only to have someone refute that proof with a single statement "god did it."

To just say God did it regresses humanity to before early humanity. Even then people didn't try to just wait for superstitious beliefs to fix everything. So when people got sick, they performed brain surgery. Science has been growing ever since Cavemen invented clothing and discovered fire to keep them warm instead of waiting for supernatural results.

You could also explore the fundamental ground work of "theory" to faith and religion. That those of faith will have faith in something being created by God until proven otherwise, their faith will then modify itself to consider new observational evidence. Unfortunately, the real world suffers from ignorant minded people set in their ways.

Yeah, but theories are based on observations and observations that can be repeated through experimentation. Then when you find proof, theory becomes fact, like evolution through natural selection. However if you believe in, let's say, Roman Catholicism, that means it shouldn't ever have anything about the belief system. The Universe is roughly 6, 000 years old and so is all life.

That being said, we used to live in a world where the greatest minds were 100% convinced that the world was flat based on the "fact" that we stood in place.

Actually, people knew the Earth was a sphere for thousands of years except for a small minority

The Myth of the Flat Earth



Introduction

We all know that Christopher Columbus encountered stiff resistance about his idea of sailing off West to try and reach the East Indies. Many of us have laboured under the impression that people were concerned that he would sail off the edge of the Earth which was widely believed to be flat. History is thought to have vindicated Columbus against those filled with the Christian superstition of a flat Earth who held on to old fashioned beliefs. A minority of people are even under the impression that Galileo's trial centred on the subject rather than whether the Earth orbited the sun.

It comes as some surprise, therefore, to find that Columbus was wrong and his critics were right - not because the world is actually flat after all, but because at the time everyone knew it was a globe and were arguing about how big it was. The idea that the uncouth people of the Middle Ages thought the Earth was flat is an example of the myth that has been propagated since the nineteenth century to give us a quite unfair view of this vibrant and exciting period.

Christopher Columbus

So what was Columbus's mistake? The disagreement between him and his critics was over the size of the world - not an easy thing to measure. The story of this controversy can be traced back to the ancient Greeks and the various ways their writings were transmitted to the West.

The Greeks had tried hard to find out how large the Earth is and managed to calculate many different figures depending on the methods and accuracy of their work. The most famous effort today is that of Eratosthenes, Librarian of Alexandria, who wrote a treatise On the Measurement of the Earth (now lost) in which he gave a figure for the Earth's circumference of 250,000 stadia. Depending on how long a stadia actually was this is the equivalent of about 23,000 miles, creditably close to the true figure of 24,900 miles. However, given his method involved pacing out the distance between two points 500 miles apart, we must allow that he enjoyed a good deal of luck as well.

At the time Eratosthenes's result did not demand universal assent and was widely seen as too big. A more popular figure is that given in by Strabo and Ptolemy, two distinguished Greek geographers of around the first century AD who both suggested 180,000 stadia. We are not sure where they got their figures from but they were repeated by the Latin writer Seneca who transmitted them to the medieval West. By the time that it became a live issue for Columbus, Eratosthenes' figure was back in vogue and the experts were wisely urging the Italian not to set sail. In particular a committee set up in Salamanca examined the plans and rejected them on the grounds that Columbus had underestimated the distance he would have to travel. Their concern is easy to understand - imagine how much trouble Columbus would have been in if the Americas had not been there. He could not possibly have survived the trip all the way to the east coast of Asia and was very lucky that some land intervened before he and his crew had to pay for his mistake. In the end, however, Queen Isabella of Spain was won over and donated the resources required.

It is not difficult to see how the story of Columbus was adapted so that he became the figure of progress rather than a lucky man who profited from his error. According to Jeffrey Burton Russell here, the invention of the flat Earth myth can be laid at the feet of Washington Irving, who included it in his historical novel on Columbus, and the wider idea that the everyone in the Middle Ages was deluded has been widely accepted ever since.

The Real Flat Earthers

The myth that Christians in the Middle Ages thought the world was flat was given a massive boost by Andrew Dickson White's weighty tome The Warfare of Science with Theology. This book has become something of a running joke among historians of science and it is dutifully mentioned as a prime example of misinformation in the preface of most modern works on science and religion. The flat Earth is discussed in chapter 2 and one can almost sense White's confusion that hardly any of the sources support his hypothesis that Christians widely believed in it. He finds himself grudgingly admitting that Clement, Origen, Ambrose, Augustine, Isodore, Albertus Magnus and Aquinas all accepted the Earth was a globe - in other words none of the great doctors of the church had considered the matter in doubt. Although an analysis of what White actually says suggests he was aware that the flat Earth was largely a myth, he certainly gives an impression of ignorant Christians suppressing rational knowledge of its real shape.

Luckily for White there were then, as there are now, a few fringe writers who could be counted upon to support any point of view no matter how wild. Cosmas Indicopleustes was one such man. He was a merchant traveller who retired to become a monk in the Egyptian desert where he wrote a treatise on Christian Topology that included his flat Earth cosmology. It was widely ignored at the time and Christian scholars like John Philoponus derided it as the work of an uneducated fool. So it was and it was soon forgotten. Because it was written in Greek, it was unavailable and unknown in the Latin West where, contrary to White's insinuations, it had no influence at all. First published with a Latin translation only in 1776, the book has since gained far wider recognition that it ever had in its day.

Lactantius was another church father who did seem sure the earth was flat but no one paid much attention to him either. Other early Christians may well have simply been using common language that we still use today. Saying "to the ends of the earth", "the four corners of the world" or "the sun sank into the sea" does not make you a flat Earther and we should treat ancient people with the same generosity. What can be stated categorically was that a flat Earth was at no time ever an element of Christian doctrine and that no one was ever persecuted or pressurised into believing it. This is interesting because the Bible itself implies the Earth is flat (for example at Daniel 4:11 or 4:8 in Catholic Bibles) and most of its writers (certainly those of the Old Testament) probably thought so. Clearly, belief in the complete scientific accuracy of the scriptures against known facts was not upheld by the early or medieval church who were happy to accept a figurative interpretation.* You can read a full analysis of the different writers who have mentioned the shape of the earth in the e-book The Flat Earth by 'Ethical Atheist'.

Anti-clerical history of science writers have promulgated the myth so that even today, in his book The Discoverers, Daniel Boorstin manages to produce a totally misleading account (although he eventually gets Columbus right). His bias shows badly when he castigates Christians for thinking the world was flat when they did not and then praises the erudition of Chinese geographers who actually did believe it. The myth is so prevalent that the blurb on the back cover of the UK version of Umberto Eco's Serendipities, the editor repeats the myth even though within the book itself, Eco devotes a good deal of attention to debunking it!
 
Yes the myth of the flat earth propagated by supporters of atheism is something that has always anoyed me. As I said in a reply to Bubonic a few pages back, historically the church was a great propagator of knowledge and to paint them a purely ignorant via "Flat Earth Theory" is simply unfair.

Ironically I think its actually a detriment to the arguement in support of empiracle study. Discovering the true shape and with suprising accuracy the siz of our planet is one of the greatest acheivments of early Greek math and study, which largely serves as a basis of modern science.
 
it's also proof that our cognitive ability to piece together theories and come up with a clear almost infallible hypothesis that would later be proven right when we got our first glimpse of the Earth from space.

I suppose my real point comes back to Human nature and our brain's ability to see patterns, whether they are there or not. This will always allow us to achieve more knowledge in the pursuit of truth but also has us entertaining faith as valid.
 
To me its the argument of fate vs. coincidence. Do all things happen for a reason? Or is everything just random, with no specific meaning...except what we create for ourselves?


I think people believe in things that are not real, they chose to...because those things give them the strength to cope with difficult times. Which, to be honest, I get. I understand why people do that. Its not the worst thing in the world, but...


I don't think most people care about THE TRUTH. I'm talking about Big T, truth. Absolute truth. With postmodernism...everything is relative these days. "To each his own." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, their own beliefs, their own...whatever. And I get it. In some ways its a really good thing. I'm not knocking it entirely.


But, the bottom line is: Either there is no God and everyone who believes in one is delusional and/or crazy. Or there is a God, and a lot of us chose to not believe in him for whatever reason(s).


My problem is I know that one of those two scenarios is TRUE. But it comes down to a choice of faith, or lack of faith. Thats what bothers me. I can't truly know the answer. I mean know with 100% certainty. Which is why I have doubts. Because I can't know that God exists with 100% certainty...I will always have doubts. I suppose my doubts override my ability to have that faith.


So yeah...that is my take on all that...hope it makes sense.
 
To me its the argument of fate vs. coincidence. Do all things happen for a reason? Or is everything just random, with no specific meaning...except what we create for ourselves?


I think people believe in things that are not real, they chose to...because those things give them the strength to cope with difficult times. Which, to be honest, I get. I understand why people do that. Its not the worst thing in the world, but...


I don't think most people care about THE TRUTH. I'm talking about Big T, truth. Absolute truth. With postmodernism...everything is relative these days. "To each his own." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, their own beliefs, their own...whatever. And I get it. In some ways its a really good thing. I'm not knocking it entirely.


But, the bottom line is: Either there is no God and everyone who believes in one is delusional and/or crazy. Or there is a God, and a lot of us chose to not believe in him for whatever reason(s).


My problem is I know that one of those two scenarios is TRUE. But it comes down to a choice of faith, or lack of faith. Thats what bothers me. I can't truly know the answer. I mean know with 100% certainty. Which is why I have doubts. Because I can't know that God exists with 100% certainty...I will always have doubts. I suppose my doubts override my ability to have that faith.


So yeah...that is my take on all that...hope it makes sense.

Oh, I don't know that they don't care about "Truth." I have a bunch of friends stuck in Texas, and I see them on FB post a lot on the "Truth." They're perception of Truth is warm, fuzzy and inviting. It's a nice place to go on Sundays. It's strength when you need it. It provides for a happy place at the end of their lives. It's generally a good thing that tells them how to act and keeps them out of trouble.

But it's not the truth, or at least as much of the truth as we can perceive based on our understanding of reality. The truth isn't always warm and fuzzy. It doesn't lead to a happy place, tell you what to do, and it means you may be cutting the grass on Sundays. The truth can be harsh and unyielding. You can easily see why one would prefer the "Truth" over the truth, and they will fight against reason, logic and evidence tooth and nail to keep that perception intact.
 
http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/platoscave.gif

If anyone has read Plato's allegory of "The Cave" it's a good way of outlining the "truth" as something tangible, in comparison to something abstract as people perceive it.

The debate could be made that modern science as well as faith are all relative to deductive reasoning by the individuals studying.
 
but once again thats the problem, faith isnt really deductive or at least stops short of actually attempting to find answers with any real basis.
 
I'm not sure I believe in atheism. :rimshot:

My tendency is to fall in the agnostic camp, that way if I am wrong, I might still have some options at the end...
 
To me its the argument of fate vs. coincidence. Do all things happen for a reason? Or is everything just random, with no specific meaning...except what we create for ourselves?


I think people believe in things that are not real, they chose to...because those things give them the strength to cope with difficult times. Which, to be honest, I get. I understand why people do that. Its not the worst thing in the world, but...


I don't think most people care about THE TRUTH. I'm talking about Big T, truth. Absolute truth. With postmodernism...everything is relative these days. "To each his own." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, their own beliefs, their own...whatever. And I get it. In some ways its a really good thing. I'm not knocking it entirely.


But, the bottom line is: Either there is no God and everyone who believes in one is delusional and/or crazy. Or there is a God, and a lot of us chose to not believe in him for whatever reason(s).


My problem is I know that one of those two scenarios is TRUE. But it comes down to a choice of faith, or lack of faith. Thats what bothers me. I can't truly know the answer. I mean know with 100% certainty. Which is why I have doubts. Because I can't know that God exists with 100% certainty...I will always have doubts. I suppose my doubts override my ability to have that faith.


So yeah...that is my take on all that...hope it makes sense.

Makes sense to me, and I agree completely.

The trouble is that Religion and the belief in God relies on it being IMPOSSIBLE to prove. We cannot see, hear or feel God. We cannot put him under a microscope or have him present to us a sworn statement and an undeniable show of his powers that nobody can debunk.

And because God has the 'power' to not be seen, those who do believe, don't believe in proof. In fact if we were able to find proof of God it would kind of disprove him partially in the process, because he controls everything... Does that make sense?

You can be frustrated as I am, that God if he existed, would just not provide us with that proof and stop all this argueing. But it's always going to come down to that free will factor - that life and faith in God are a test or whatever.

But hey, if you believe what Descartes said, the only TRUTH truth, is that you exist (I think therefore I am).

So all we can really do is just go by what we FEEL is true I guess. And some people find their truths in their heart, while others find it in their head.

I find my truths in my head, though I sometimes wish I could think with my heart. It's a nicer feeling to believe in something just because you do, in a way that you can't explain or quantify.
 
I have a problem with the thread title. How could you love being an Atheist? Who would be in love with the idea of your life & everthing you have experienced & learned going away into darkness. Leaving a rotting flesh pile in the ground to be devoured by whatever creatures lurk in the area?

I look at being an Atheist as a crappy logical realization.
 
1) Although it doesn't say that in the text, what he meant by "God's ideal" was marriage between one man and one woman.
I know what he meant, and I still maintain that he's reading into the Bible what he wants to read into it to make it fit his own prejudices. For example, if we go by what the Bible says, God created Eve from Adam's rib, therefore it's reasonable to conclude that she had the same DNA as Adam and therefore the same ethnicity. We can therefore use this knowledge to attack interracial couplings, and we should indeed do so because such couplings are against God's ideal of what marriage should be. Do you see what extremes these kind of ridiculous leaps in logic can lead people to?

2)How do you know he wasn't using "multiple" as a synonym for "many?" I figure it's possible because I looked up "multiple" on theasaurus.com and "many" was listed in two instances.
Yes, it can mean that, but that doesn't mean that it always does.

mul·ti·ple (m
ubreve.gif
l
prime.gif
t
schwa.gif
-p
schwa.gif
l)adj. Having, relating to, or consisting of more than one individual, element, part, or other component; manifold.

In other words, it can mean as little as two in number. However, the fact that we are in dispute in this matter shows that those who wrote, or at least, translated the "Word of God" were very careless people.
Slavery -- or should I say servanthood -- was used to pay off debts in biblical times, so it's not like it didn't have a purpose.
Good to know. Now in addition to a lack of historical evidence on the matter, I can also use this as an excuse to ignore people when they start whining about how the Hebrew "slaves" were so badly oppressed by the Egyptians.
And if science says being gay isn't a choice, doesn't that just blow free will out of the water? If sceince determines one's sexual orientation, it might as well determine whether or not I should enjoy life. I tend to look at things from a more philosophical perspective, which was why I brought up free will.
Science isn't some malevolent Dr. Frankenstein incarnation playing with beakers in a lab that somehow made about 10% of the population homosexual. It can't determine someone's sexual orientation. It can only help us to determine why someone has a particular sexual orientation. Nature is what actually determines the orientation.

Furthermore, being a gay man myself, I know that it wasn't something that I ever chose. What kind of madman would choose it!? What reason would they have to do so? To have almost everyone you know and love turn their backs on you, to know that you'll never have children of your own, etc. I was devastated in my teen years when I realized that I was gay. And guess what? My first course of action was to turn to God, to get him to "fix" me. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was when I realized that if there wasn't some magical sky friend that gave a damn about me, or if he did, he sure didn't care whether or not I was gay. I'm not talking about coming to this conclusion overnight, either, but months and months of prayer almost every single night. As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, and I'm glad to say that I'm no longer insane.
Now, whether or not God's all-knowing nature negates our free will would be a discussion for another time. And what about those who stop being gay, as a result of coming to Christ or whatever? Can science explain that?
:funny: I can explain that for you very simply. If you're gay and it's made perfectly clear to you that your family and friends are going to desert you because of your sexual orientation, or if you're so damned afraid that you're going to go to hell because of said orientation, it's very easy to lie to yourself and others and say that God has "changed" you. If you tell yourself that lie often enough, you might even begin to believe it... at least until an attractive person of the same sex comes along and forces you to confront the reality of the situation again. And here's something that most Christian fundamentalists don't want people to know about, which is why I scream it from the rooftops... the founders of Exodus International, one of the world's largest (if not the largest) "ex-gay" ministries admitting that they are gay themselves and apologizing for their hand in creating this horrible organization, and also admitting that they never saw one instance in which it helped anyone. These people have hurt a lot of people, including themselves, in doing what they did, but I applaud them for having the courage to see the error of their ways and admitting the truth for all the world to hear:
Finally, the ludicrous argument that "science" (I'm assuming that you mean nature) causing one to be homosexual takes away free will makes no more sense than saying that heterosexuality being determined by nature does. Did YOU choose to be straight? Was this some conscious decision that you made at some point? Does someone having white skin take away his free will if he'd rather have been black or Asian? If so, God forgot to give us our own personal avatar editor programs for us to fix little issues like this in the whole free will situation.
I just feel that if science determines one's sexual orientation is like saying he or she is stuck with it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but what if a straight person is curious about homosexuality or vice versa? Does that create a problem for science? I know being curious about homosexuality doesn't mean one will become gay as a result, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
Oh, I'm not saying that a straight person can't have gay sex. That happens all the time in prisons. But once those guys get out of prison, they are no longer stuck with men as their only option and they go right back to having sex with women. In a similar way, there have been gay men who had babies the old fashioned way with surrogate mothers, but once the task has been completed and the woman is pregnant, these gay men don't automatically leave their partners and start sleeping with women left and right. They generally find the experience of sex with a woman unpleasant, just as the experience of sex with a man is less than ideal for those guys in prison.

And as the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz said, "Of course, some people do go both ways." If someone likes men and women, it doesn't have anything to do with free will, it just means that they're bisexual.
 
I have a problem with the thread title. How could you love being an Atheist? Who would be in love with the idea of your life & everthing you have experienced & learned going away into darkness. Leaving a rotting flesh pile in the ground to be devoured by whatever creatures lurk in the area?

I look at being an Atheist as a crappy logical realization.
Most atheists don't think about it in such harshly negative terms, nor does atheism even demand a lack of belief of some sort of afterlife. Atheism, at its most basic, only means a lack of belief in deities and nothing more. Many Buddhists (especially Western Buddhists) are either atheistic or agnostic, for example.
 
To GhostVirus

Because some people don't find their comfort in trusting that everything is in someone's elses hands and not for us to comprehend.

Some people find comfort in what they can know for certain. It gives their life stability, makes them feel grounded and reassures them that things can be understood.

Yes, I believe that when I die, I am going to cease to exists, and my body will rot and feed the soil and the insects that survive on that kind of nutrient.

But that thought doesn't stop me from loving the clarity I have about things, the peace that I find comes from knowing that my life is simply mine, to do with what I want. I don't want to waste it because I think every moment of pleasure and happiness is wonderful. But I don't begrudge it ending, nor the harsh reality of how it ends.

In short, the truth hurts. Ignorance is Bliss, yes. But I love not being ignorant.
 
The thing is, whether there is a god or not. Nothing is for certain. Control is a complete illusion.

There is very few things in this life you can actually control.
 
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