Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

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It wasn't supposed to.
Okay, so your argument was intentionally nonsense? That's what you're telling me?

I think I'm done talking to you. After reading a string of semi-coherent ramblings that didn't address my actual statements (despite ostensibly being presented in response to them), I think further discourse would be pointless.
 
One of my friends is against gay marriage. I asked him about gay rights and he just told me, "Don't they have enough rights already?" That gets me steamed. Not only is it ignorant and stupid, but what a contradiction. Not only did he address them as "They" but it's like he's above them or think they should only have limited rights. For people who love this country and support the rights of everybody as stated by our Founding Fathers, this just is like talking about blacks. We are living in a free nation where everybody has equal rights. So just because you're homosexual, you should have less rights? What happened to believing in America and its rights that straight white men believe in and celebrate every Fourth of July? The people in our government who are against it as well. It's the same thing. Those who believe so strongly in our government and what we set over two hundred years ago are against someone's rights? We are living in the 21st century where everybody deserves to be free with equal rights. I can't believe gay marriage is even an issue.

Which leads to religion. Apparantly God loves everybody. If God was so good and true, wouldn't he love homosexuals as well? So I guess God loves blacks now after years of slavery and lack of rights? This doesn't make any sense to me. If people say God doesn't love homosexuals, I guess he isn't so good after all.

I hate it when religious people create their own beliefs and use religion to justify them. It doesn't do their religion any favors. The worst part is, religion does get in the way of belief in gay marriage within government. Which is why this is still an issue. Which is why religion and politics do not mix. What happened to separation of church and state?
 
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If you can find a less biased website, I might be willing to consider it. That the website is "creationists.org" was more than enough to throw up a red flag. When it called the ACLU an anti-Christian organization in the first paragraph, I closed the window. At any rate, just because someone has a Christian seminary degree only means that they have an education on the subject matter, not that they are a Christian. Alan Watts, one of my favorite authors on Eastern religions, had one, but he was never a Christian.

I could write a nice long post of problems on that website after reading through some of their other articles. If the research of those subjects is any indication of their research on the founding fathers, then I'd look elsewhere for more scholarly sources that reflect a semblance of grounding in reality.
 
One of my friends is against gay marriage. I asked him about gay rights and he just told me, "Don't they have enough rights already?" That gets me steamed. Not only is it ignorant and stupid, but what a contradiction. Not only did he address them as "They" but it's like he's above them or think they should only have limited rights. For people who love this country and support the rights of everybody as stated by our Founding Fathers, this just is like talking about blacks. We are living in a free nation where everybody has equal rights. So just because you're homosexual, you should have less rights? What happened to believing in America and its rights that straight white men believe in and celebrate every Fourth of July? The people in our government who are against it as well. It's the same thing. Those who believe so strongly in our government and what we set over two hundred years ago are against someone's rights? We are living in the 21st century where everybody deserves to be free with equal rights. I can't believe gay marriage is even an issue.

Which leads to religion. Apparantly God loves everybody. If God was so good and true, wouldn't he love homosexuals as well? So I guess God loves blacks now after years of slavery and lack of rights? This doesn't make any sense to me. If people say God doesn't love homosexuals, I guess he isn't so good after all.

I hate it when religious people create their own beliefs and use religion to justify them. It doesn't do their religion any favors. The worst part is, religion does get in the way of belief in gay marriage within government. Which is why this is still an issue. Which is why religion and politics do not mix. What happened to separation of church and state?

Hear hear Doctor Jones...agree with everything you said. Gays and lesbians are Americans too, and should have the same rights as everyone else. Its sad that America is built on a history of hipocrisy and denial. I hope someday we well become the America we claim to be in the Declaration of Independence....which was written 235 years ago. Progress is indeed slow.
 
I think that basically people who are strongly against homosexuality are thankfully in the minority.

Then again, a group of us all went to see Zack and Miri make a porno. We got to the scene with Brandon Routh and Justin Long just TALKING about their relationship and this one guy we were with got up, started ranting that he couldn't believe he'd payed for this **** and stormed out before he could watch any more. I mean everyone thought he was weird for doing it, but it shows that it is still engrained in some people, in how they were brought up or whatever.

Unfortunately, I don't think they are the minority. Otherwise, gay marriage wouldn't be such a controversial subject even in more liberal places like California, and other places, such as the south where I live, that issue wouldn't even stand a chance.
 
Hear hear Doctor Jones...agree with everything you said. Gays and lesbians are Americans too, and should have the same rights as everyone else. Its sad that America is built on a history of hipocrisy and denial. I hope someday we well become the America we claim to be in the Declaration of Independence....which was written 235 years ago. Progress is indeed slow.

I just have a really hard time accepting the fact that someone deserves less rights because of who they choose to put their penis into.
 
I just have a really hard time accepting the fact that someone deserves less rights because of who they choose to put their penis into.



I don't know. I'd make an exception for some. Though who they put their penis in is only a small part of the problem.


orange_guidos_bud_light.jpg
 
Then again, a group of us all went to see Zack and Miri make a porno. We got to the scene with Brandon Routh and Justin Long just TALKING about their relationship and this one guy we were with got up, started ranting that he couldn't believe he'd payed for this **** and stormed out before he could watch any more. I mean everyone thought he was weird for doing it, but it shows that it is still engrained in some people, in how they were brought up or whatever.

50 bucks he had an erection. :o
 
I just have a really hard time accepting the fact that someone deserves less rights because of who they choose to put their penis into.

Or what. After bans on homosexual marriage, will it get to toasters and their own hands too? I mean this in all seriousness.
 
Or what. After bans on homosexual marriage, will it get to toasters and their own hands too? I mean this in all seriousness.

I suppose there is a line. Incest? Bestiality?

But seriously, homosexuality isn't that line for me. It's a slippery slope either way, in which case I choose to err on the side of not taking rights away.

I guess even in really twisted and extreme circumstances, who's to say a brother and sister can't have sex if they are both consenting?

I know that's opening a whole can of worms, and by no means am I condoning incest, but seriously, the point is who is to say that something that people consent to that effects them and only them is immoral?
 
I suppose there is a line. Incest? Bestiality?

But seriously, homosexuality isn't that line for me. It's a slippery slope either way, in which case I choose to err on the side of not taking rights away.

I guess even in really twisted and extreme circumstances, who's to say a brother and sister can't have sex if they are both consenting?

I know that's opening a whole can of worms, and by no means am I condoning incest, but seriously, the point is who is to say that something that people consent to that effects them and only them is immoral?

Incest affects more than just the couple if they decide to have sex and have a child. It affects the offspring with the high probability of defects.

But I doubt that you're going to have a high influx of incestuous couples wanting to apply for marriage licenses. And I doubt that the lack of a marriage right, or even the opinion of society at large, would keep a brother and sister from having sex if they so desired.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think they are the minority. Otherwise, gay marriage wouldn't be such a controversial subject even in more liberal places like California, and other places, such as the south where I live, that issue wouldn't even stand a chance.

Hmmm yeah maybe I was being a bit too general.

It certainly feels like it's the minority over here in Britain, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we are not heavily religious as a country. And we're just so open about it. A lot of our tv shows are hosted by flamboyant gay men, and we are host to probably the most famous married gay man - Elton John. It's in our soaps, it's in our adverts etc etc.

Of course there are still people who hate homosexuals, but they tend to keep it to themselves now because the reaction to negative comments would be treated the same as racism.

I don't know anything about where your from, but I think the more religious a community is, the more homosexuality is frowned upon.
 
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day an we discussed atheism being a choice. I told him it wasn't but he said it was it is when you say you are an atheist and come to the conclusion that you are. You choose when you find the meaning of the word and declare you are that. As a Catholic, he said he can choose to be an atheist if he wanted to. He even cited his grandmother of choosing to switch religions. Which may be true in that sense. But other than that, it puts into further questioning just how possible it is for believers of God to become atheists. I doubt atheism is a thing of nature, for us I think it's just reasoning in our heads. If we believe this, then why can't others see? I don't want to call it ignorance, people can believe what they want to. But what makes a person step out and see that there is no God among the majority who does? Is the majority so convinced there is a God, that's the ground they stand and believe in that and refuse to accept that there could be no God? How come we are the ones who see it?
 
Hear hear Doctor Jones...agree with everything you said. Gays and lesbians are Americans too, and should have the same rights as everyone else. Its sad that America is built on a history of hipocrisy and denial. I hope someday we well become the America we claim to be in the Declaration of Independence....which was written 235 years ago. Progress is indeed slow.

Only three states legally allow homosexual marriage. This is ridiculous.

I guess instead of talking about rich white men having rights, I guess this means only rich straight white men have all the rights and power.
 
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day an we discussed atheism being a choice. I told him it wasn't but he said it was it is when you say you are an atheist and come to the conclusion that you are. You choose when you find the meaning of the word and declare you are that. As a Catholic, he said he can choose to be an atheist if he wanted to. He even cited his grandmother of choosing to switch religions. Which may be true in that sense. But other than that, it puts into further questioning just how possible it is for believers of God to become atheists. I doubt atheism is a thing of nature, for us I think it's just reasoning in our heads. If we believe this, then why can't others see? I don't want to call it ignorance, people can believe what they want to. But what makes a person step out and see that there is no God among the majority who does? Is the majority so convinced there is a God, that's the ground they stand and believe in that and refuse to accept that there could be no God? How come we are the ones who see it?

There are probably as many reasonings used to believe as there are people who subscribe to religion. I think it starts with the individual and their ability to look beyond everything they've been told and want to believe. They have to be able to question and analyze the world around them. We are trained at an early age to believe in things that aren't there, and they often make our world more magical. Santa Claus, leprechauns, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, all training wheels for God. When we're children we accept these things without question, and we believe these things are real because the alternative, the world without them, is not as fun or magical.

With God, you get inner strength, inner peace, a place to go after death, someone to look out for you. These things are attractive to those who are looking for them. The real world is not. Nothing at all about the Hebrews, the inner workings of the Bible, the culture and history behind it is considered. Your peers, parents, everyone around you believes. Alternate views and contradicting data tends to be discarded, ridiculed or rationalized away.

I suspect ignorance and misleading information also assists in keeping people under the influence of religion. I have read countless websites dealing with science that are blatantly misleading and incorrect, but coherently presented. They will confuse those not educated in a particular subject and allow them to feel confident that what they believe and what they are being told is true.

There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. It isn't openly evil. It is simply a form of control, and those who follow it allow themselves to be controlled to such a degree that to grow beyond it takes a force of will they do not have or do not wish to have because they can't understand, or rather do not wish to understand, that what they believe to be true is just a method of controlling how they act, think and feel. You can attain that same feeling on your own if you bothered to put forth the effort to do so.

I think people are still attempting to use their reasoning minds. When you consider Christianity, you'll see that there are many sects that have levels of adherence to scripture. Those with less adherence will tend to contain members who are more open to new ideas and have a generally more moderate or liberal view of the world. Those who take a more literal view of scripture are less receptive to changes and viewpoints that may seem normal to some are radical to them. People who want to have the fringe benefits of belief will tend to flock toward a sect that resembles the level of reasoning they wish to apply to the world around them.

I don't know if people are ready, as a whole, to live without religion. They aren't civilized enough to handle the concepts of morality and their own mortality without the illusion of some higher power telling them what to do. They can't conceive of a world without it. But I think that the ability to do so is there, in various levels, in everyone. People who are generally good will be that way regardless of whether they have religion, just as religion will not help those who are generally bad. Basically, you put forth all the effort, and give God the credit or blame for when you do, or do not, succeed.
 
Some people, arguing with you every day, but don‘t blame you. Some people, even the quarrel all have no, but already disappeared into the crowd.
 
NAIL HIM TO A CROSS!:argh: (Or perhaps a giant stone wedding cake would suffice.)
 
I was talking to a friend of mine the other day an we discussed atheism being a choice. I told him it wasn't but he said it was it is when you say you are an atheist and come to the conclusion that you are. You choose when you find the meaning of the word and declare you are that. As a Catholic, he said he can choose to be an atheist if he wanted to. He even cited his grandmother of choosing to switch religions. Which may be true in that sense. But other than that, it puts into further questioning just how possible it is for believers of God to become atheists. I doubt atheism is a thing of nature, for us I think it's just reasoning in our heads. If we believe this, then why can't others see? I don't want to call it ignorance, people can believe what they want to. But what makes a person step out and see that there is no God among the majority who does? Is the majority so convinced there is a God, that's the ground they stand and believe in that and refuse to accept that there could be no God? How come we are the ones who see it?

I have to admit, that is one of the questions that plagues me.

Why is it that my brain has lead me to my 'truth', while others lead them to religion?

Is it because it's how they were raised? Is it because they subconciously don't want to loose the comfort of it? Is it because the idea of no God is simply to frightening for some people to want to accept it as true?

But it's certainly not a choice.

I mean I suppose it's a choice to call yourself an Atheist rather than hide behind the security and apathy of Agnostic.

But I don't think you choose to stop believing in God... It just happens.
 
But it's certainly not a choice.

But I don't think you choose to stop believing in God... It just happens.

Speaking personally, this is nothing but the truth. I didn't choose to be an atheist. I literally tried for years to keep believing in god. It just wasn't going to happen. The way my brain works won't allow it. I tried and I tried and I tried, and I prayed, and I tried, and I prayed, and I tried some more. My faith wouldn't come back. It was not a choice.
 
hide behind the security and apathy of Agnostic.

Theres no security or apathay involved in calling yourself an Agnostic. Stating that there is no god is no different than stating that there is.
The only certain logical conclusion that anyone can make as that they dont know. Some can accept the uncertainty of that and accept that until further evidence is found Agnosticism is truly the only fully defendable stance.
 
Theres no security or apathay involved in calling yourself an Agnostic. Stating that there is no god is no different than stating that there is.
The only certain logical conclusion that anyone can make as that they dont know. Some can accept the uncertainty of that and accept that until further evidence is found Agnosticism is truly the only fully defendable stance.

Which is why it is safe...

Because if a religious person says 'what do you believe' and you say 'I don't know', then you are not argueing against them. Your just not argueing. And the same if an Atheist asks that question.

You have basically removed yourself from the arguement.

It's not the only 'defendable' stance... A because both Atheists and Religious people are perfectly capable of defending theirs. But also because it's not a belief at all.

I was Agnostic for a long time because I felt I didn't know enough to say for certain God doesn't exist.

There is one important fact that changed my mind.

The Bible was written by a bunch of men, over 2000 years ago. Before that, most people believed in many Gods.

But both of those 'ideas' came from man. From human brains. From imagination and a primitive form of reasoning in order to explain how the world works, BEFORE we had science to actually show us without just guessing.

And that tells me, that this idea that people came up with a long time ago is just that - and idea. A very very outdated idea, that for some reason people cling to desperately.

Because it's easier to just imagine a man who takes care of everything than accept that in the development of our society and our knowledge, we have found out the truth of how the world works.
 
So many affirmed atheists claim a devotion to provable statements, to logic. Yet by making the statement that there is no God, that is making an unprovable statement.

Theres plently of proof against the veracity of the Bible or any other religious text, thats not what I'm saying. Just a deity in general seperate of our understanding of the hypothetical intangible being. You cannot prove anything about it either way.

Saying there is no proof of God is another matter, but by the very nature of it there is no proof of gods non-existence either. Any other argument is inherently invalid.

The only thing we truly know is that we don't know.

Theres nothing safe or comfortable about absolute uncertainty.
 
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