Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[SuperFerret]

It's okay though, atheists will just use other justifications for war.

 

[redhawk23]

They will, but they won't claim infallibility, divine right, or say your soul is forfeit if you don't side with them.

 

[SuperFerret]

And?

 

[redhawk23]

They're at least honest about what they're doing rather than using religion to justify what is essentially a landgrab.

 

[SuperFerret]

Not necessarily.

 

[redhawk23]

Not necessarily.

Very true, but the comic's point is valid, they don't do it in God's name.

I mean you could argue the same way against the rest of it as well. Though an atheist won't pray the fat away, that might complain that no one as thought up an easy work free way to lose weight, just the same way that secularist might falsely declare war in the name of freedom, or borrowing from some handbooks, claim their enemy has phantom weapons of mass destruction.

There are excuses and forms of manipulation from all across the religious/non-religious spectrum.

 

[SuperFerret]

Yep.

 

[Anubis]

As long as you are aware that whether you believe in a God/Gods or not, people are still *****e bags.

 

[Exabyte]

One of my friends is against gay marriage. I asked him about gay rights and he just told me, "Don't they have enough rights already?" That gets me steamed. Not only is it ignorant and stupid, but what a contradiction. Not only did he address them as "They" but it's like he's above them or think they should only have limited rights. For people who love this country and support the rights of everybody as stated by our Founding Fathers, this just is like talking about blacks. We are living in a free nation where everybody has equal rights. So just because you're homosexual, you should have less rights? What happened to believing in America and its rights that straight white men believe in and celebrate every Fourth of July? The people in our government who are against it as well. It's the same thing. Those who believe so strongly in our government and what we set over two hundred years ago are against someone's rights? We are living in the 21st century where everybody deserves to be free with equal rights. I can't believe gay marriage is even an issue.

Which leads to religion. Apparantly God loves everybody. If God was so good and true, wouldn't he love homosexuals as well? So I guess God loves blacks now after years of slavery and lack of rights? This doesn't make any sense to me. If people say God doesn't love homosexuals, I guess he isn't so good after all.

I hate it when religious people create their own beliefs and use religion to justify them. It doesn't do their religion any favors. The worst part is, religion does get in the way of belief in gay marriage within government. Which is why this is still an issue. Which is why religion and politics do not mix. What happened to separation of church and state?

Sadly most "religious" fokes believe it's a "choice," however, I really have a hard time understanding why one would choose to be gay considering the social stigma against it; they don't have an answer to that either.

 

[Vile]

I always thought they considered it a choice so they could be gay without BEING gay - its a choice! Your ulta-conservative republicans tend to do the same thing so when they get caught in an airport bathroom they can still be straight...they just made a 'bad choice'.

 

[Manic]

Anti-gay Christians* believe homosexuality is a choice because the Bible says not to be gay, and people being born gay means that God is creating gay people despite it being against the rules. That would mean that God is contradicting himself, which means he's not perfect. Some people have a hard time believing that the god who made this craphole of a planet as we know it could make a mistake.



*I'm going to specify that we're talking about Christians here. Just saying "religious people" makes it a blanket statement that doesn't even apply to most religions. Anyway, everyone knows that atheists have only ever heard of like 3 religions.

 

[Anubis]

What are the religions that don't have a problem with homosexuality?

 

[Manic]

What are the religions don't have a problem with homosexuality?

A few religions don't have any official word on homosexuality, so it varies from person to person depending on the attitudes of where they live. Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Wicca, Unitarianism, and Shinto don't seem to have any written specific positions on the subject outside of what a few prominent members of those religions think.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are almost the only religions with any hard written rules on homosexuality.

 

[Anubis]

They also happen to be the biggest. (Well, Christianity and Islam at least.)

 

[Spider-Who?]

Being religious, its my belief that homosexuality is a sin. But a sin no worse than any other sin that everyone in the world is guilty of. The argument that "i was born gay so its God who made me gay!" is a falsehood and an inaccurate statement on many levels (IMO):

1 - I believe that while God has his hand in many things, he would not "make" gay babies anymore than he would purposefully "make" an autistic child. The outcomes of reproduction is a roll of the dice, and I think people clamoring to put a "God's Will!" spin on every aspect of life is a flawed way of living...and 9 times out of 10, is only done to justify one's own prerogative.

2 - In some instances, yes, I do believe being gay (or should I say conducting oneself in a homosexual way) is a choice - (as a very shallow example, think of the two stereotypical college chicks who get drunk and make out/experiment for the hell of it). However, when it comes to legitimately gay people, while i personally am not a scientist who studies this, I haven't seen any proof that validates the idea that we can be "born gay" in the sense that being gay is a specifically genetic occurrence (note - if any one can refute that with studies, I'd be interested in learning more). How do you know if you're "born gay"? Are there tests? Are people claiming that sexual identity and attraction is existent in infants to prove this? My view on it is that its an incalculable amount of things - social conditioning, physiological differences, etc that is typically beyond conscious control (but again, I'm not holding this idea as fact, so please correct me with studies if you find this notion to be incorrect).

3 - God doesn't hate gays. God doesn't hate liars. God doesn't hate atheists. Technically, God should have "no" emotions since he is not human. When we say "God loves us" (or any other emotion), it is OUR way of expressing logic behind his words/actions in a way we as humans can understand and sympathize with. That being said, the bible says that "God is Love", and Jesus' whole message was to love one another regardless of who they were or what they did. So anyone who claims that God hates (insert any demographic here) is a moron and has not a shred of understanding of the faith they claim to have. (sorry, this misconception is something i'm very passionate about)

4 - Ill end with this: I believe that gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals and should not be condemned for their way of living anymore than any one else. No one should be persecuted or have their liberties limited based on who they are or how they choose to live their lives, so long as the sanctity of life is not infringed upon. I don't judge gay people (I've even got a few gay friends, myself) anymore than I would judge anyone else on this globe (and I do my best to live a "judge-free" life).

 

[Manic]

There are more people in those other religions combined than there are Jews, Christians, and Muslims combined.

People in the Hype's religions threads and this thread only ever talk about Christianity, Islam, and Judaism because those are the most prominent religions in the Western world (where most of us come from), not necessarily the whole world.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Being religious, its my belief that homosexuality is a sin. But a sin no worse than any other sin that everyone in the world is guilty of. The argument that "i was born gay so its God who made me gay!" is a falsehood and an inaccurate statement on many levels (IMO):

1 - I believe that while God has his hand in many things, he would not "make" gay babies anymore than he would purposefully "make" an autistic child. The outcomes of reproduction is a roll of the dice, and I think people clamoring to put a "God's Will!" spin on every aspect of life is a flawed way of living...and 9 times out of 10, is only done to justify one's own prerogative.

2 - In some instances, yes, I do believe being gay (or should I say conducting oneself in a homosexual way) is a choice - (as a very shallow example, think of the two stereotypical college chicks who get drunk and make out/experiment for the hell of it). However, when it comes to legitimately gay people, while i personally am not a scientist who studies this, I haven't seen any proof that validates the idea that we can be "born gay" in the sense that being gay is a specifically genetic occurrence (note - if any one can refute that with studies, I'd be interested in learning more). How do you know if you're "born gay"? Are there tests? Are people claiming that sexual identity and attraction is existent in infants to prove this? My view on it is that its an incalculable amount of things - social conditioning, physiological differences, etc that is typically beyond conscious control (but again, I'm not holding this idea as fact, so please correct me with studies if you find this notion to be incorrect).

3 - God doesn't hate gays. God doesn't hate liars. God doesn't hate atheists. Technically, God should have "no" emotions since he is not human. When we say "God loves us" (or any other emotion), it is OUR way of expressing logic behind his words/actions in a way we as humans can understand and sympathize with. That being said, the bible says that "God is Love", and Jesus' whole message was to love one another regardless of who they were or what they did. So anyone who claims that God hates (insert any demographic here) is a moron and has not a shred of understanding of the faith they claim to have. (sorry, this misconception is something i'm very passionate about)

4 - Ill end with this: I believe that gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals and should not be condemned for their way of living anymore than any one else. No one should be persecuted or have their liberties limited based on who they are or how they choose to live their lives, so long as the sanctity of life is not infringed upon. I don't judge gay people (I've even got a few gay friends, myself) anymore than I would judge anyone else on this globe (and I do my best to live a "judge-free" life).

 

[redhawk23]

Spoiler

Being religious, its my belief that homosexuality is a sin. But a sin no worse than any other sin that everyone in the world is guilty of. The argument that "i was born gay so its God who made me gay!" is a falsehood and an inaccurate statement on many levels (IMO):

1 - I believe that while God has his hand in many things, he would not "make" gay babies anymore than he would purposefully "make" an autistic child. The outcomes of reproduction is a roll of the dice, and I think people clamoring to put a "God's Will!" spin on every aspect of life is a flawed way of living...and 9 times out of 10, is only done to justify one's own prerogative.

2 - In some instances, yes, I do believe being gay (or should I say conducting oneself in a homosexual way) is a choice - (as a very shallow example, think of the two stereotypical college chicks who get drunk and make out/experiment for the hell of it). However, when it comes to legitimately gay people, while i personally am not a scientist who studies this, I haven't seen any proof that validates the idea that we can be "born gay" in the sense that being gay is a specifically genetic occurrence (note - if any one can refute that with studies, I'd be interested in learning more). How do you know if you're "born gay"? Are there tests? Are people claiming that sexual identity and attraction is existent in infants to prove this? My view on it is that its an incalculable amount of things - social conditioning, physiological differences, etc that is typically beyond conscious control (but again, I'm not holding this idea as fact, so please correct me with studies if you find this notion to be incorrect).

3 - God doesn't hate gays. God doesn't hate liars. God doesn't hate atheists. Technically, God should have "no" emotions since he is not human. When we say "God loves us" (or any other emotion), it is OUR way of expressing logic behind his words/actions in a way we as humans can understand and sympathize with. That being said, the bible says that "God is Love", and Jesus' whole message was to love one another regardless of who they were or what they did. So anyone who claims that God hates (insert any demographic here) is a moron and has not a shred of understanding of the faith they claim to have. (sorry, this misconception is something i'm very passionate about)

4 - Ill end with this: I believe that gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals and should not be condemned for their way of living anymore than any one else. No one should be persecuted or have their liberties limited based on who they are or how they choose to live their lives, so long as the sanctity of life is not infringed upon. I don't judge gay people (I've even got a few gay friends, myself) anymore than I would judge anyone else on this globe (and I do my best to live a "judge-free" life).

Your views are very refreshing.

 

[redhawk23]

There are more people in those other religions combined than there are Jews, Christians, and Muslims combined.

People in the Hype's religions threads and this thread only ever talk about Christianity, Islam, and Judaism because those are the most prominent religions in the Western world (where most of us come from), not necessarily the whole world.

While it is true that majority of people do not adhere to the Abrahmic religions, it is true that Christians and Muslims make up the two largest religious groups.

And its not just a western thing either. Last I heard roubyly 12% or so of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide live in Indonesia.

And also you have think about the places where Christianity and Islam do make up the majority. They are the most prominent cultural forces in a number of the most powerful countries in the world, not that other faiths don't also hav major footholds, but I think you understand my meaning.

 

[Manic]

Okay, fine, but my point was that I constantly see phrases like "religious people" or "the religious," when the person saying it is talking about maybe three religions. Yes, two of those religions are the largest in the world, but the statement is still blanketing over all the other religions.

 

[jb007]

Well, I believe it takes more faith to believe in no God than it does to believe in God.

When I look around at things like trees, the grand cannon, the Rocky mountains, I can see God.

I have Atheist friends. So I am not offened. I neither cram my belife down their throats and they return the favor. We both know where each other stands.

My tag line is this though. "If your right and when we die nothing happens that's fine. I will have lived a very moral life on belifes that others are greater than myself. But, if I'm right and Jesus is who he says he is your screwed."

I only say that to people I know very well. So there ya go.

 

[Manic]

One of my favorite audio sketches from David Mitchell & Robert Webb's radio show

 

[redhawk23]

Well, I believe it takes more faith to believe in no God than it does to believe in God.

If you're talking about what people do not believe in, in the case of atheists, God, there is no faith. Thats what it means not to believe, to not have faith.

Now if you're talking about the ideals and things that people DO believe in then I can understand where you're coming from. Otherwise you lost me.

I think Joss Whedon (of all people, lol) put it best durring his acceptance speech for the Outstanding Lifetime Achievement Award in Cultural Humanism from the Harvard Humanist Society back in 09, in fact its one of my favorite quotes of all time.

"The enemy of humanism is not faith; the enemy of humanism is hate, is fear, is ignorance, is the darker part of man that is in every humanist, every person, in the world. That is the thing we have to fight. Faith is something we have to embrace. Faith in God is believing absolutely in something with no proof whatsoever. Faith in humanity means believing absolutely in something with a huge amount of proof to the contrary."

Now if you're talking about Humanism or anyother set of beliefs then yes faith is involved almost by definition. But atheism is simply the lack of belief. Nothing else can be inferred.

 

[Spider-Who?]

If you're talking about what people do not believe in, in the case of atheists, God, there is no faith. Thats what it means not to believe, to not have faith.

Now if you're talking about the ideals and things that people DO believe in then I can understand where you're coming from. Otherwise you lost me.

I think Joss Whedon (of all people, lol) put it best durring his acceptance speech for the Outstanding Lifetime Achievement Award in Cultural Humanism from the Harvard Humanist Society back in 09, in fact its one of my favorite quotes of all time.

"The enemy of humanism is not faith; the enemy of humanism is hate, is fear, is ignorance, is the darker part of man that is in every humanist, every person, in the world. That is the thing we have to fight. Faith is something we have to embrace. Faith in God is believing absolutely in something with no proof whatsoever. Faith in humanity means believing absolutely in something with a huge amount of proof to the contrary."

Now if you're talking about Humanism or anyother set of beliefs then yes faith is involved almost by definition. But atheism is simply the lack of belief. Nothing else can be inferred.

That's not quite accurate.

Faith has various definitions, depending on it's usage:

1) Confidence or trust in a person or thing
2) A belief not based on proof
3) Belief in a god or religious doctrine

Atheism is only a lack of "faith" in the third sense of the word. It takes faith (definition 1 and 2) to be an atheist, since one is confident in their belief that god does not exist, despite any actual proof to substantiate that belief, which is what I believe he was going for.

Love the quote by Whedon, btw. Had no idea he won award like that.

 

[Saint]

Atheism is only a lack of "faith" in the third sense of the word. It takes faith (definition 1 and 2) to be an atheist, since one is confident in their belief that god does not exist, despite any actual proof to substantiate that belief,

No.

A hobo could be fighting a dog in my back yard. At this point, I have no reason to believe anyone is doing that, so I don't believe a hobo is dog-fighting is in my backyard. That's not a belief. That's a lack of belief. That's different from saying "I think nobody is in my backyard," which would be a belief.

There are atheists who will say "I think God doesn't exist," and that is a belief--but atheism, by definition, is the lack of belief in God's existence--not the belief in his non existence. It's the difference between "I don't believe in God," and "I believe God doesn't exist."

Frankly, the problem is that people don't think about language. If I say to someone in casual conversation "I don't believe in God," I guarantee that person will understand that statement as "I believe God doesn't exist," which is asinine. If I'd meant that, I would have said that.

It doesn't even make sense to argue that lack of belief is a belief; that's a logical contradiction. That's like saying "You don't believe in anything, and that's a belief." It doesn't make sense. Nothing can't be something.

Well, I believe it takes more faith to believe in no God than it does to believe in God.

This is complete nonsense; how does it take more faith to say "I see no reason to believe in any of this" than it does to say "Not only does my God exist, but by necessary consequence all other religions are wrong"?

If somebody comes up to you and says "I have an invisible car," it doesn't take any faith to say "You haven't convinced me to believe that." Again: it is a logical contradiction to say that faith is required to not believe something.

"If your right and when we die nothing happens that's fine. I will have lived a very moral life on belifes that others are greater than myself. But, if I'm right and Jesus is who he says he is your screwed."

If God punishes people for failing to worship him, then he is evil and not deserving of my worship anyway.