Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Sloth7d]

I still don't get how hard it is to distinguish a set of beliefs from a single one, which a religion requires the former. You can be in an atheist religion, or even the usual theistic one. What you can't be is merely a theist or an atheist and say that's your religion. The club is just gathering together of a minority belief system to share experiences, not some religion with a set of objectives and end goals.

 

[bgates87]

Yet... there's a club.

Yes. The existence of a club does not necessitate a common set of beliefs among its members. To what religion would you say the members of a chess club must belong?

And if a religion isn't required, what issue is there with the existence of this club?

 

[SuperFerret]

The chess club get together to play chess. Should there be a club for people who don't play chess? As people have said time and time again, atheism isn't a religion. It's not even something that requires any sort of shared interest, so I don't see any need for them to have a club. Honestly, what would they talk about?

 

[Spider-Who?]

The chess club get together to play chess. Should there be a club for people who don't play chess? As people have said time and time again, atheism isn't a religion. It's not even something that requires any sort of shared interest, so I don't see any need for them to have a club. Honestly, what would they talk about?

Probably the same thing that has been talked about for 30 pages here.

Atheism is not the absence of religion. What people think about is actually irreligion. You don't need a god to be religious. Look at taoists.

While I agree that atheism in its basic (and most widely used form) is NOT a religion; to disqualify people's ability to make it one is false. There are those whose atheism is so strong that they DO congregate and base their ethics, world views and life style on that "no God(s)" foundation; even going so far as to try and convert others, all of which is a decidedly "religious" trait.

Again, no I do not call atheism as a whole a religion. However, groups of people CAN make their beliefs a religion - however small - regardless of their belief in a god or gods.

 

[moviedoors]

Yet... there's a club.

What? People with similar world views aren't allowed to gather and exchange ideas?

I imagine it's similar to a skeptics meeting, who have big conventions like TAMM. There's things to discuss once you get past "hey, I don't believe in god either." It's not like once you've hit that point your just supposed to twiddle your thumbs and never talk about it.

 

[moviedoors]

Probably the same thing that has been talked about for 30 pages here.

Atheism is not the absence of religion. What people think about is actually irreligion. You don't need a god to be religious. Look at taoists.

While I agree that atheism in its basic (and most widely used form) is NOT a religion; to disqualify people's ability to make it one is false. There are those whose atheism is so strong that they DO congregate and base their ethics, world views and life style on that "no God(s)" foundation; even going so far as to try and convert others, all of which is a decidedly "religious" trait.

Again, no I do not call atheism as a whole a religion. However, groups of people CAN make their beliefs a religion - however small - regardless of their belief in a god or gods.

Religion is simply the wrong word to apply to it. Religion by definition requires belief in a higher power. A no atheist organization can have elements similar to the way religious operate, but it's still not a religion. The term just doesn't apply. It'd be more accurate to call it a worldview.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Religion is simply the wrong word to apply to it. Religion by definition requires belief in a higher power. A no atheist organization can have elements similar to the way religious operate, but it's still not a religion. The term just doesn't apply. It'd be more accurate to call it a worldview.

That’s not true at all. Religion and theism are not exclusive to each other. Look at the religion of Buddhism. They are most CERTAINLY a religion, yet the vast majority of Buddhists are atheists, agnostic at most.

You can be a theist and not religious. You can be atheist and religious. Theism and religion are NOT the same, contrary to popular belief thanks to the popularity of Western religions.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I wonder how Humanism fits into all this?

 

[Sloth7d]

The chess club get together to play chess. Should there be a club for people who don't play chess? As people have said time and time again, atheism isn't a religion. It's not even something that requires any sort of shared interest, so I don't see any need for them to have a club. Honestly, what would they talk about?

If playing chess was as big a deal as believing in god, there most certainly would be. Again, this is not a group with a set of objections or an end goal, but merely a minority of people coming together to let each other know they aren't alone and shares experiences. You may as well say my Facebook friends list is a religion.

 

[Sloth7d]

I wonder how Humanism fits into all this?

That would be a religion the way I see it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[moviedoors]

That’s not true at all. Religion and theism are not exclusive to each other. Look at the religion of Buddhism. They are most CERTAINLY a religion, yet the vast majority of Buddhists are atheists, agnostic at most.

You can be a theist and not religious. You can be atheist and religious. Theism and religion are NOT the same, contrary to popular belief thanks to the popularity of Western religions.

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

There' no way to make that apply to a group of people who neither recognize nor worship a higher power. It's just the wrong term.

 

[Franklin Richards]

When in doubt... use philosophy.

 

[Dr.]

...Atheist Club.

I kept thinking, "What could they be talking about in that club?" I thought they don't believe in organized religion (though Atheism could be considered now a religion itself), so what is really there to discuss about?

Well, members of religious clubs are united over nothing. So let’s not criticize atheists for doing the same thing.




More seriously… atheism can be intellectually interesting (as a topic, it’s part of the philosophy of religion). Also, many atheists have concerns about the desecularization of government and society. This is more political and activist in nature – not just sitting around and discussing non-belief. (For this reason, many clubs and societies avoid the narrow “atheist” label and go with “secular.&#8221. Finally, there’s the community aspect. It’s not so odd that a minority group (especially if it’s stigmatized) would organize, socialize, etc.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Then there are these guys.

 

[Spider-Who?]

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods

There' no way to make that apply to a group of people who neither recognize nor worship a higher power. It's just the wrong term.

From dictionary.com:

re·li·gion
   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Note that definition 1 uses the term "especially when..." which does not exclude the lack of any deities, and definitions 2-4 do not specify deities at all, in fact, definition 2 merely states " a specific set of beliefs...agreed upon by a number of persons".

My merriam-webster dictionary also says religion is a

cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

 

[Bat-Mite]

Then there are these guys.

Poe's Law. I can't discern a difference between this person and Mandy Moore's character in Saved!

 

[Spider-Who?]

Good grief, its people like that who ruin good things.

 

[WildcatNC]

That’s not true at all. Religion and theism are not exclusive to each other. Look at the religion of Buddhism. They are most CERTAINLY a religion, yet the vast majority of Buddhists are atheists, agnostic at most.

You can be a theist and not religious. You can be atheist and religious. Theism and religion are NOT the same, contrary to popular belief thanks to the popularity of Western religions.

I get what your saying, but thats why many consider it a Philosophy.

 

[redhawk23]

On the topic of groups of atheists, they can serve a purpose. It doesn't necessarily form into some kind of "religion" as the members do not necessarily agree on anything other than their non belief. Their reasons for said non belief can be very different and even conflicting with one another. At the same time though speaking with other atheists can provide some sense of community with at least some kind of baseline for agreement. It can create a more comfortable atmosphere in which to discuss the things that you DO believe in.

I personally am co founder of a chapter of the Secular Student Alliance here at St. Louis University, which is a Jesuit campus. There are people from a great number of religious backgrounds and the university as well as many student groups make a point to include everyone. There is a broad focus on pluralism and open discussion. Atheists though can often be left out on the cold on this front though. People either act like we don't exist or are deliberately exclusionary. That said there are a fair number of atheists and the like here on campus and the creation of our group has met with a very good response. Furthermore a number of other groups on campus have also lent their support to our group, inviting us to their events and such. It has been very encouraging. The university itself has continued to grant us a charter however, restricting us from campus resources.

 

[Lasirius]

The reason I said Atheism is considered a religion, is that the article I read flat-out said that concerning this club. It gave the idea that they gathered to talk about said "religion", hence my doubts on what there's to discuss for if there's nothing to believe in in the first place.

But of course, you can always find something to discuss about especially when it comes to religion and it's branches -- I just don't see it as an ongoing club that can last very long.

 

[chaseter]

What's your point?

There isn't a mandatory requirement to join this club if you're an atheist.

I imagine they discuss different ideas and how to approach atheism with the public.

What's your point?

There isn't a mandatory requirement to go to church or pray every day if you are a theist.

Atheism and theism or any form of religion should not be defined by what man says you should do but by what you feel you should do. It's why there are so many various religions and even splinters within each religion. People define what they feel like their religion means to them and like minded people join together to form a group, church, etc. That is what atheists are doing now. They are coming together to form a group and spread their message. There are atheist billboards during Christmas and Easter. And no, not every Atheist is that way but you cannot deny that Atheism is evolving.

Atheism is becoming a pseudo religion in the loosest meaning of the term. Atheism is by definition a lack of belief in a god(s) but that is inherently the same as theism. There is no proof that a god does not exist so an atheist believes that a god(s) does not exist. That is a belief. They have to have just as much of a leap of faith as theists. As mentioned, Atheist groups are coming together to spread their message and try to convert people. I wouldn't be shocked if in 50 years there are Atheist establishments with paying members that meet on a designated time basis to come together and exchange ideas on where they want to see Atheism go in the future and how that relates to their lives. Right now I think it's a political group would be the best term of the word but it's evolving.

 

[Lasirius]

^ This. They get together to spread the message and force their believes to other people just like other religious people do.

 

[chaseter]

Not every Atheist is that way just like not every theist is a crazy abortion clinic bombing homosexual hating bigot. Every person views their beliefs a different way and like minded people join together. But, for a person to call themselves an Atheist and try to convert theists to atheism and spend money to put up billboards shows that Atheism is evolving.

 

[redhawk23]

Chaseter, your assuming that all atheists have the same reasons for their lack of belief. This is inaccurate.


Also there is a difference between saying "I do not accept that there is sufficient evidence to support the existence of God" and saying, "I do not believe in God", and a further difference from stating "There is no God."
The first is more of a matter of the null hypothesis. If someone says "Vaccinations lead to downs syndrome." The null hypothesis is "There is no connection between vaccinations and downs syndrome." By usual parlance, the former is the one making a claim and needs to prove it.

 

[redhawk23]

To say that "atheism" its self is a belief is inaccurate Chaester. By definition it is simply the lack of belief. Nothing further necessarily follows from that term.

The term does not describe what said people DO believe in however and thus is the problem with applying that term as some sort of identity marker.

Or are you an A-Zues-ist?

Also on the matter of atheist establishments...

lol South Park.