Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Spider-Who?]

Do you say you believe there is no god, or do you say there is no god?



And the evidence would be of different types depending on the beliefs.



Yes. Unequivocally. Belief that is not backed up by evidence is invalid. If you believe that god exists, you have no evidence for that belief, I don't want to know you. If you believe that god doesn't exist, you have no evidence for that belief, I don't want to know you. If, like me, you don't see any reason to believe either way, and don't see any need to hold such a belief, then let me shake your hand, how are ya, how's the fam, sit down and put your feet up.

Sounds like you don't have very many friends.

 

[redhawk23]

Once again though, the age of an idea doesn't really effect the validity.

 

[Jerry Siegel]

Where do my rights come from? Same place as the rest of me - my mother's vagina.

Being a living, breathing, conscious being grants me (and everyone) certain rights. Because someone might try to impede or infringe upon them doesn't invalidate those rights.

First of all, did I ask you?

Second of all, so you're a living, breathing, conscious being. So? Who says ya have any rights?

Some are just the nature of the game. You can try all you'd like but you cannot control what I think. You can kill me for what I think, but that would be a violation not a negation of my right to free thought.

Many of our so called "rights" however are socially constructed. Society is indeed very much about controll and currently and for much of human history this has been the case. The goal of the social contract is to create a system of mutual control of balance of preventing people from damaging each other. The ideal of "your rights end where others begin" This definitely has its problems as people attempt to sway the system and control eachother. But once again, it doesn't HAVE to be this way. Its socially constructed and ultimately it comes down to the way individuals choose to treat each other.

In other places of the world and even still even in this country people attempt to control others and to define them as having no rights. All this does though is create a flawed system. These things can be fixed.

In America for instance, we do not currently have to marry whomever we'd like. If I really wanted to, I could not marry another man in the state where I live. However these social conventions can be changed. It may be a struggle, but so is life itself.

So you agree that rights are socially constructed. You agree that we made 'em up.

While I'll agree that most so called rights are conventional, for the record, the newness of a concept does not make it any less true.

So we had rights before we had rights?

 

[redhawk23]

First of all, did I ask you?

Second of all, so you're a living, breathing, conscious being. So? Who says ya have any rights?



So you agree that rights are socially constructed. You agree that we made 'em up.



So we had rights before we had rights?

The United States is entirely a social construct, and yet the United States exists.

Also I didn't say that all rights were social constructs. Certain rights don't even apply in many places and times. I have the right to drive a car but that means f**** all to Amazonian Indian in an un-contacted tribe. Our regulations and policies on driving ages and rights are socially constructed.

In other cases the rights exist, but what we effectively do is attempt to define people as "non-persons". That status is a social construct. The fact remains though that they have rights that are being infringed upon.

 

[Jerry Siegel]

You can't prove that you are not the figment of someone else's imagination. Disown yourself.

Figments don't think.

Also belief is just one of many aspects of peoples lives and personalities. Excuse me if your hard lined stance is un-enviable.

Our beliefs don't just affect our lives. They affect other people's. If you're a parent, they'll affect your children. If you're a voter, they'll affect people who live hundreds of miles away who you'll never even meet.

Sounds like you don't have very many friends.

You're right. I don't believe in having friends for the sake of having friends. My friends are people who agree with me on the important issues. I'll associate with people of different opinions, but I don't wanna be friends with them.

 

[Jerry Siegel]

The United States is entirely a social construct, and yet the United States exists.

Also I didn't say that all rights were social constructs. Certain rights don't even apply in many places and times. I have the right to drive a car but that means f**** all to Amazonian Indian in an un-contacted tribe. Our regulations and policies on driving ages and rights are socially constructed.

In other cases the rights exist, but what we effectively do is attempt to define people as "non-persons". That status is a social construct. The fact remains though that they have rights that are being infringed upon.

The United States is concrete, rights are abstract. I don't believe in the existence of socially constructed abstract ideas.

 

[redhawk23]

By definition, society is a socially constructed Idea, do societies not exist?

Gender is a social construct. Someone may be genetically and sexually male but rather or not they are a Man is socially constructed.



The fact that you are considered a human is socially constructed.

Language itself is socially constructed.

The united states is very much socially constructed. It only gets to function as a nation because other nations choose to recognize it.

Just look at Palestine. Palestine the country does not exist. But it could some day if other countries choose to recognize it as such.

You know what else is inherently socially constructed? Economic systems.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Do you say you believe there is no god, or do you say there is no god?

I'd say that in my opinion there is no god.

And opinion, really is just a less spiritual way of saying belief. But it just avoids people using the fact you said the word 'belief' against you in a debate about religion.

And the evidence would be of different types depending on the beliefs.

How?

Yes. Unequivocally. Belief that is not backed up by evidence is invalid. If you believe that god exists, you have no evidence for that belief, I don't want to know you. If you believe that god doesn't exist, you have no evidence for that belief, I don't want to know you. If, like me, you don't see any reason to believe either way, and don't see any need to hold such a belief, then let me shake your hand, how are ya, how's the fam, sit down and put your feet up.

Belief IS something you think is true without actually KNOWING beyond a doubt that it is.

And you believe plenty of things on a day to day basis. Unless your a paranoia, conspiracy nut.

You believe someone when they tell you their name. You believe someone when they tell you the time etc etc. You accept things that you have no way of proving on a daily basis.

Acting like any kind of believe is unacceptable. That's just not true.

You have a beef about beliefs concerning religion or a lack thereof.

Whether that is because you personally don't like thinking about it too much, or have issues with 'faith' (which is more what your talking about than belief anyway), I have no idea.

Figments don't think.

Prove it.

You're right. I don't believe in having friends for the sake of having friends. My friends are people who agree with me on the important issues. I'll associate with people of different opinions, but I don't wanna be friends with them.

Reminds me of a couple of fridge magnets I have:

1. 'My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me'
2. Everyone is entitled to my opinion

 

[redhawk23]

Figments don't think.

Have you ever written a fictional story in the first person or played a tabletop RPG? You can create entire other people, make up their thoughts. They can have entire histories and attitudes and biases separate from yours but exist entirely in your mind. How do you know for certain that you are not someone else's delusion. How do you know you are not Tyler Durden?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think you might be over-stating social constructs. Sex for example, is not a social construct, by extension, gender is debatable, since obviously, gender roles have some origin in biology.

 

[redhawk23]

Sex is not a social construct and I never said it was however gender is. Gender may have associations with certain biological traits but the nature of gender, is socially constructed. Also there are societies where there are more than 2 genders. The traits and expectations associated with each, the way we define them is socially constructed.

We associate Manhood with male genetalia. But what does it mean to be a man? That question is very dependent upon cultural expectations and the way people define it.

Who's the most manly out of this group?

Also in our culture we still have an expectation of submissiveness from females. Many argue that this is biological but it is social. In other parts of the world women are the sole decision makers or the holders of status and land.

In a similar fashion Race, while most often tied to skin color or a few other traits, has little biological basis. The way define people by race is socially constructed and yet has a profound impact on identity and reality people live in.

 

[-Arya-]

It is true to say that most rights are a social contruct; however it would be false to assume its non-existence. If we really care about the well being of our fellow humans in our current context, then I think rights are an imperative. A person who believes that nobody is entitled to any rights at all is, I think, bordering on psychopathic behavior. Our current system in the U.S isn't perfect by any means. However, as redhawk mentioned the system can be modulated.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Sex is not a social construct and I never said it was however gender is. Gender may have associations with certain biological traits but the nature of gender, is socially constructed. Also there are societies where there are more than 2 genders. The traits and expectations associated with each, the way we define them is socially constructed.

We associate Manhood with male genetalia. But what does it mean to be a man? That question is very dependent upon cultural expectations and the way people define it.

In a similar fashion Race, while most often tied to skin color or a few other traits, has little biological basis. The way define people by race is socially constructed and yet has a profound impact on identity and reality people live in.

I will agree, that race as humans know it, is a social construct. It's worth noting that some species do have subspecies, we just wiped ours out back in the day.

Having said that, there's more to one's sex than genitalia, the brain structure is different (brain cortex, for example), not to mention various hormones. Point being, gender is mostly biological, a small part of it is cultural.

 

[redhawk23]

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Gender while tied to biology is made up of the cultural expectations attributed to different groups of people. The lines of those groups may be defined by biology but culture chooses which biological features matter.

Gender is more of a matter of social identity.

Hormones do have an effect on behavior but you can look at men from different cultures and their behavior differs widely as they have different things expected of them.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Gender while tied to biology is made up of the cultural expectations attributed to different groups of people. The lines of those groups may be defined by biology but culture chooses which biological features matter.

Gender is more of a matter of social identity.

Hormones do have an effect on behavior but you can look at men from different cultures and their behavior differs widely as they have different things expected of them.

Sex is immutable, gender is, but only slightly. Overall, you will see the same basic roles in every human culture. Men are more aggressive (psychological), and stronger (physical), thus they are the warriors. Again, we're all the same species, with very little genetic differences, so the differences in culture will be pretty small.

 

[Jerry Siegel]

By definition, society is a socially constructed Idea, do societies not exist?

Gender is a social construct. Someone may be genetically and sexually male but rather or not they are a Man is socially constructed.



The fact that you are considered a human is socially constructed.

Language itself is socially constructed.

The united states is very much socially constructed. It only gets to function as a nation because other nations choose to recognize it.

Just look at Palestine. Palestine the country does not exist. But it could some day if other countries choose to recognize it as such.

Whether or not someone is a man is socially constructed, but whether or not they're male isn't?

I'd say that in my opinion there is no god.

And opinion, really is just a less spiritual way of saying belief. But it just avoids people using the fact you said the word 'belief' against you in a debate about religion.

Why do you need to believe either way about the existence of god? Yes, we need certain beliefs to get us through the day, but why must you believe either way about god?

How?

Fairies leave behind fairy dust. gods leave behind mountains.

Belief IS something you think is true without actually KNOWING beyond a doubt that it is.

And you believe plenty of things on a day to day basis. Unless your a paranoia, conspiracy nut.

You believe someone when they tell you their name. You believe someone when they tell you the time etc etc. You accept things that you have no way of proving on a daily basis.

Acting like any kind of believe is unacceptable. That's just not true.

I don't have any reason not to believe someone when they tell me their name. When someone tells me the earth was created in 7 days, I have pretty good reason to doubt them.

You have a beef about beliefs concerning religion or a lack thereof.

Whether that is because you personally don't like thinking about it too much, or have issues with 'faith' (which is more what your talking about than belief anyway), I have no idea.

I don't have a belief about religion. I HATE religion. I despise it, I loathe it, I detest it down to the very core of my being. It makes me physically angry. I break things when I even think about religion.

Prove it.

I think I think.

Reminds me of a couple of fridge magnets I have:

1. 'My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me'
2. Everyone is entitled to my opinion

If you don't agree with me on the things that matter, the things that actually affect people's lives, I want no more than momentary interactions with you.

Have you ever written a fictional story in the first person or played a tabletop RPG? You can create entire other people, make up their thoughts. They can have entire histories and attitudes and biases separate from yours but exist entirely in your mind. How do you know for certain that you are not someone else's delusion. How do you know you are not Tyler Durden?

When I invent a fictional character who's 30 years old, I don't invent all 946 million seconds of their lives.

 

[redhawk23]

Whether or not someone is a man is socially constructed, but whether or not they're male isn't?

Sex and Gender are not the same thing

Why do you need to believe either way about the existence of god? Yes, we need certain beliefs to get us through the day, but why must you believe either way about god?



Fairies leave behind fairy dust. gods leave behind mountains.



I don't have any reason not to believe someone when they tell me their name. When someone tells me the earth was created in 7 days, I have pretty good reason to doubt them.




I don't have a belief about religion. I HATE religion. I despise it, I loathe it, I detest it down to the very core of my being. It makes me physically angry. I break things when I even think about religion.



I think I think.



If you don't agree with me on the things that matter, the things that actually affect people's lives, I want no more than momentary interactions with you.



When I invent a fictional character who's 30 years old, I don't invent all 946 million seconds of their lives.

You don't but the possibility that someone else or some other entity might. And you can't prove that is not what is occurring. Nor can you prove that you aren't floating around in a jar being used as battery for our new Robot Overlords. Also can you even remember EVERY second of your life? How do you know for certain that your past even happened?

see above

 

[Jerry Siegel]

Sex is not a social construct and I never said it was however gender is. Gender may have associations with certain biological traits but the nature of gender, is socially constructed. Also there are societies where there are more than 2 genders. The traits and expectations associated with each, the way we define them is socially constructed.

We associate Manhood with male genetalia. But what does it mean to be a man? That question is very dependent upon cultural expectations and the way people define it.

Who's the most manly out of this group?

Also in our culture we still have an expectation of submissiveness from females. Many argue that this is biological but it is social. In other parts of the world women are the sole decision makers or the holders of status and land.

In a similar fashion Race, while most often tied to skin color or a few other traits, has little biological basis. The way define people by race is socially constructed and yet has a profound impact on identity and reality people live in.

Race is most often tied to skin color or a few other traits. By that I assume you mean biological traits.

It is true to say that most rights are a social contruct; however it would be false to assume its non-existence. If we really care about the well being of our fellow humans in our current context, then I think rights are an imperative. A person who believes that nobody is entitled to any rights at all is, I think, bordering on psychopathic behavior. Our current system in the U.S isn't perfect by any means. However, as redhawk mentioned the system can be modulated.

I said we have no rights, not that we aren't entitled to any rights.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Why do you need to believe either way about the existence of god? Yes, we need certain beliefs to get us through the day, but why must you believe either way about god?

I don't NEED to.

Having a belief isn't something I actively went out and found because I needed one.

It's a simple conclusion.

Someone presents the idea of god to me... and my natural reaction is 'I believe that is a load of nonsense.'

Don't need to believe that. I just do believe that.

Fairies leave behind fairy dust. gods leave behind mountains.

Both of which are evidence. Your proving the existence of both through the method of evidence.

So there is no difference in how you'd go about proving one or the other.

I don't have any reason not to believe someone when they tell me their name. When someone tells me the earth was created in 7 days, I have pretty good reason to doubt them.

And what if someone tells you the earth definitely WASN'T created in 7 days then?

Do you have any real reason not to believe that?

I don't have a belief about religion. I HATE religion. I despise it, I loathe it, I detest it down to the very core of my being. It makes me physically angry. I break things when I even think about religion.

I said a beef... as in a big problem with religion...

Which I think you just expressed fairly well that you do.

FYI I hate organised religion. And I dislike the need for 'faith'.

But I don't hate the entire concept of belief, which is basically just describing your opinion on EVERYTHING since nothing can be proved by your own existence (I think therefore, I am).

 

[Jerry Siegel]

see above

You ****ed that up. If you want me to reply to any of it, you'll need to fix it.

 

[redhawk23]

Sex is immutable, gender is, but only slightly. Overall, you will see the same basic roles in every human culture. Men are more aggressive (psychological), and stronger (physical), thus they are the warriors. Again, we're all the same species, with very little genetic differences, so the differences in culture will be pretty small.

Not all cultures necessarily have a "warrior" identity.

Similarly our western associations with "maternal" attitudes are not a cultural universal.

And how things like aggression are displayed are very dependent upon culture as well.

And there are basic roles to fill basic needs but in many cultures the distribution of these roles does not match what we westerners are used to.

There are very little genetic differences but there have been TREMENDOUS cultural differences. We are not instinctive animals. Most of what we rely on to survive is learned behavior.

 

[redhawk23]

Race is most often tied to skin color or a few other traits. By that I assume you mean biological traits.

Yes we tie them to biological traits but the things we associate with them the expectation involved are cultural.

 

[redhawk23]

You ****ed that up. If you want me to reply to any of it, you'll need to fix it.

All I did was add my answer directly underneath it, common practice dude.

 

[-Arya-]

I said we have no rights, not that we aren't entitled to any rights.

You seem to implicitly support this notion. In the world we currently live in, whether or not rights are an objective fact, it is beneficial for us to have rights.

 

[Jerry Siegel]

I don't NEED to.

Having a belief isn't something I actively went out and found because I needed one.

It's a simple conclusion.

Someone presents the idea of god to me... and my natural reaction is 'I believe that is a load of nonsense.'

Don't need to believe that. I just do believe that.

I was presented with the idea of god. I came to the conclusion I didn't believe in him. I was presented with the idea of no god. I came to the conclusion I didn't believe that either. It's my opinion you believe only what you feel you need to believe.

Both of which are evidence. Your proving the existence of both through the method of evidence.

So there is no difference in how you'd go about proving one or the other.

Both evidence. Different things though. That matters to me. I think of different things differently.

And what if someone tells you the earth definitely WASN'T created in 7 days then?

Do you have any real reason not to believe that?

The only real reason I'd have is lack of evidence, and as we all know the evidence is there in spades.

I said a beef... as in a big problem with religion...

Which I think you just expressed fairly well that you do.

I know you said beef. I meant to say beef. I said belief because I have the word on the brain at this stage. But I still don't have a beef. A beef is a big problem. I have an INTENSE M*****F***ING HATRED!

FYI I hate organised religion. And I dislike the need for 'faith'.

But I don't hate the entire concept of belief, which is basically just describing your opinion on EVERYTHING since nothing can be proved by your own existence (I think therefore, I am).

If you believe something that you have no reason to doubt, fine. If you believe something that you have reason to doubt, and you don't have any evidence to back up your belief, that's called faith. I hate faith.