Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[hopefuldreamer]

I think people find the notion of there being no afterlife more depressing than there being no god.

Well what's so damn scary about not existing forever and ever and ever?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well what's so damn scary about not existing forever and ever and ever?

Ceasing to exist is probably every single thing's greatest fear. Unless you don't like existing.

 

[Sloth7d]

Yes, how did you guess

Videos fixed now, accidentally pasted the whole url in

I just love that scene. Almost as much as I love Rorscach's "Looked into the sky...and God was not there" scene. Couldn't help thinking about it when you mentioned a line in a video about miracles. t:

 

[Bat-Mite]

Ceasing to exist is probably every single thing's greatest fear. Unless you don't like existing.

I don't see it as a big deal. People don't really exist (consciously) when they're asleep. I guess you could say that the ego/self is active during dreams, but other than that, you pretty much don't exist until you wake up again. If you look at non-existence as something like sleeping forever, it's not so bad.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Ceasing to exist is probably every single thing's greatest fear. Unless you don't like existing.

Wow... that's a silly statement... how on earth can you possibly think you know what is 'probably' EVERY SINGLE THINGS greatest fear...

I love life, I love existing, and I appreciate every thing I have and every day I have.

But I am not afraid of the end that is going to come some day.

Death is out of your control. Life isn't eternal, it isn't a right you have, it's a gift, it's a miracle, and we're damn lucky to have it at all.

Make the most of it. Soak up as much as you can. Write the story of your life with as many adventures, emotional connections, and experiences as you can.

Personally, the idea that my story has an ending, doesn't frighten me at all.

I'm not being arrogant. I am afraid of pain, I am afraid of dying slowly, I am afraid of dying young, or of dying without have written a good story so to speak.

But i'm not scared of 'me' being over.

My story is still there

And if it's a good one, i'll have had an effect on the world. Just a small effect probably... maybe what i've passed on to a child, or something i've accomplished, or a single person i've inspired or helped who will go on to inspire or help people too. Or maybe my actions will have saved somebody's life so that they can go on to make a great story.

I won't be remembered forever. I might not even be remembered for long. But my existing has an effect.

That's really all i've ever wanted. That's enough for me.

I guess what I strive for is to make that effect as big as possible. To use the life that i've miraculously got, to do something wonderful - big or small.

I just love that scene. Almost as much as I love Rorscach's "Looked into the sky...and God was not there" scene. Couldn't help thinking about it when you mentioned a line in a video about miracles. t:

Yeah that's a great one too

 

[bunk]

I think people find the notion of there being no afterlife more depressing than there being no god.

Bingo. It's hard to wrap your head around no longer existing and it's sad to think of leaving people behind. Erecting a wall of denial in your mind is not a healthy way to go through life though.

 

[chaseter]

However, if everything has a scientific explanation (no matter how complex) then nothing is supernatural. They stop being miracles.

But we will never know that because something inexplicable will happen that may or may not be answered by Science at some point in the future and of course we will be long dead by then. We don't know the answer to everything and I don't think we ever will because questions will be posed constantly until we as a species become a so called all knowing god.

Again, it's a fruitless argument. We have to accept that there will be things we cannot answer. That's how theism got started in the first place. Something inexplicable happened and so it must be something/someone beyond us. That will never go away until as I said, we become all knowing. I doubt that will happen but who knows!? Hell, maybe god(s) that man worship(ed) were humans from the future. Anything is possible in the world of tomorrow. Wouldn't that be the greatest irony ever? A self fulfilling prophecy. I should write a book about that. At the end of the day they are both beliefs/faith in your current knowledge.

In my opinion people that are atheist that know without a shadow of a doubt that no deity or ethereal being cannot exist are just as stubborn and pompous as the guy who stands on the street corner telling us how we are all doomed to go to hell. Nobody knows and to pretend you have the right answer for everyone is foolish.

 

[bgates87]

But we will never know that because something inexplicable will happen that may or may not be answered by Science at some point in the future and of course we will be long dead by then. We don't know the answer to everything and I don't think we ever will because questions will be posed constantly until we as a species become a so called all knowing god.

Again, it's a fruitless argument. We have to accept that there will be things we cannot answer. That's how theism got started in the first place. Something inexplicable happened and so it must be something/someone beyond us. That will never go away until as I said, we become all knowing. I doubt that will happen but who knows!? Hell, maybe god(s) that man worship(ed) were humans from the future. Anything is possible in the world of tomorrow. Wouldn't that be the greatest irony ever? A self fulfilling prophecy. I should write a book about that. At the end of the day they are both beliefs/faith in your current knowledge.

In my opinion people that are atheist that know without a shadow of a doubt that no deity or ethereal being cannot exist are just as stubborn and pompous as the guy who stands on the street corner telling us how we are all doomed to go to hell. Nobody knows and to pretend you have the right answer for everyone is foolish.

EDIT: I wrote a big long thing, then I read through your post again and realized I was arguing against something you weren't actually saying. If the only beef you have is with someone claiming to have absolute certainty then I've got no problem with that. Originally I thought you were implying that atheists claim to have certainty and theism embraces uncertainty. If that actually is what you meant to suggest then I'll gladly re-post my rebuttal.

 

[Bill]

Dropping by the thread to post an article link that I think some of you would find interesting. Previously I posted an article that made the same general point however it was "dumbed down" so to speak for general audiences and so was picked apart (I think that was on these boards anyways). This one is more detailed.

It's a creationist article written regarding lack of true rise of novel information through mutation. Note that later in the article the author addresses various claims to the contrary by evolutionists and explains how they fail to meet the necessary criteria.

http://creation.com/mutations-new-information

This statement is incorrect: "Evolution requires the existence of a process for the invention of new information from scratch. " as Evolutionary mechanisms can change the existing genome and it's components to produce new information and biological pathways without doing it "from scratch."

Carter also appears to be assuming that the earliest organisms had cells with modern complexity, an argument made Ad infinitum by Creationists who want to bring forth the "tornado through the junkyard" canard.

He states that he does not believe that all human genetic differences are caused by mutation, but doesn't list what testable mechanisms may account for them. Designed variation? Did he write a paper to put forth that mechanism as something that can be tested and verified? Sounds like "godidit."

He then loses all sorts of credibility by talking about the Flood as if it actually happened. He knows his intended audience. I bet a biologist could lay this article quite low as its mostly reshuffling old arguments in newer, more scientific sounding forms.

I have to ask, as with all of these articles found on Creationist sites, do these doctors ever bother putting this information that supposedly discredits Evolution in the form of a well researched paper to present for peer review in an actual science journal instead of writing propaganda pieces to feed to the scientifically illiterate?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Wow... that's a silly statement... how on earth can you possibly think you know what is 'probably' EVERY SINGLE THINGS greatest fear...

Simple, biology. Self-preservation is an instinct most animals have. Death is the ultimate fear. I didn't know that was controversial.

 

[Thundercrack85]

In my opinion people that are atheist that know without a shadow of a doubt that no deity or ethereal being cannot exist are just as stubborn and pompous as the guy who stands on the street corner telling us how we are all doomed to go to hell. Nobody knows and to pretend you have the right answer for everyone is foolish.

Why? There is no evidence for the existence of deities or ethereal beings. Would you hold someone in contempt for saying there are definitely no leprechauns? Nobody says, "as far as we know, leprechauns don't exist". They just say, leprechauns don't exist. Because the notion is silly. Why should this be any different?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Simple, biology. Self-preservation is an instinct most animals have. Death is the ultimate fear. I didn't know that was controversial.

Everybody sharing the same instinct for survival is not the same as no longer existing being the number one fear IMO.

And like I said, i'm not saying that dying itself doesn't frighten me, because pain frightens me... and it's very probable that i'll experience a lot of pain when I die. And because of that survival instinct, I will of course feel fear when dying.

What I am saying, and was the whole point of this discussion, is that I am not afraid to no longer exist. To have an ending.

Which is why I don't personally find the conclusion that there is no afterlife depressing or frightening.

 

[bunk]

Public speaking. Theres your number one fear!

 

[Sloth7d]

I'm more afraid of the way I'll die rather than death itself, personally.

 

[Dr.]

In my opinion people that are atheist that know without a shadow of a doubt that no deity or ethereal being cannot exist are just as stubborn and pompous as the guy who stands on the street corner telling us how we are all doomed to go to hell. Nobody knows and to pretend you have the right answer for everyone is foolish.

But one has to be mindful of making “strawman” assertions too. In my experience, the vast majority of atheists are actually “6.9 agnostics” (on the “Dawkins scale&#8221. That is, they don’t claim absolute/mathematical certainty. But they avoid the agnostic label because its ambiguity often suggests a 50/50 fence-sitter – which they are not. Thus, “atheist” – though not quite accurate - is a better, more honest term.

Now, some atheists do claim certainty. But on closer inspection, they’re making a fairly technical argument. They say that the definition of god is self-contradictory and incoherent. So they're "dogmatically certain," yes - but only in the sense that denying the existence of all nonsense concepts (like square circles) is dogmatic.

 

[redhawk23]

But we will never know that because something inexplicable will happen that may or may not be answered by Science at some point in the future and of course we will be long dead by then. We don't know the answer to everything and I don't think we ever will because questions will be posed constantly until we as a species become a so called all knowing god.

Again, it's a fruitless argument. We have to accept that there will be things we cannot answer. That's how theism got started in the first place. Something inexplicable happened and so it must be something/someone beyond us. That will never go away until as I said, we become all knowing. I doubt that will happen but who knows!? Hell, maybe god(s) that man worship(ed) were humans from the future. Anything is possible in the world of tomorrow. Wouldn't that be the greatest irony ever? A self fulfilling prophecy. I should write a book about that. At the end of the day they are both beliefs/faith in your current knowledge.

In my opinion people that are atheist that know without a shadow of a doubt that no deity or ethereal being cannot exist are just as stubborn and pompous as the guy who stands on the street corner telling us how we are all doomed to go to hell. Nobody knows and to pretend you have the right answer for everyone is foolish.

Yes we cannot answer all questions. However how does it make sense to come to a question that you can't figure out and just make crap up?

Most religions at current do not incorporate the "knowledge known at the time".

 

[El Payaso]

Public speaking. Theres your number one fear!

Hah. Wasn't it Seinfeld who said that public speakling was people's number one fear and death was number two? So in a funeral people would rather be in the coffin than doing the eulogy. Lol.



Anyways, I'm far more depressed about aging than death, as afraid of death as I am. I'd be far happier if I could be young for 80 years and then die. But not only you die, you have to progressively lose your skills and look, so in the end life is good for half its time only. Then it's all downhill and then, as a reward, you cease to exist. And then people come saying I should be thankful to an invisible being for that. Yeah right.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Someone asked me the other day if I was an organ doner, to which the answer is no.

Thought a lot about why I was reluctant in the past, but I'm going to sign up tonight.

It seems illogical for someone who does not believe in a God, a soul or an afterlife, and who doesn't fear the finality of my existence being over, to not give someone else the option of a longer life once mine is gone.

 

[Dr.]

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for millions of years before I was born and it inconvenienced me not in the slightest.” – unknown (but often attributed to Mark Twain)

 

[hopefuldreamer]

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for millions of years before I was born and it inconvenienced me not in the slightest.” – unknown (but often attributed to Mark Twain)

 

[chaseter]

EDIT: I wrote a big long thing, then I read through your post again and realized I was arguing against something you weren't actually saying. If the only beef you have is with someone claiming to have absolute certainty then I've got no problem with that. Originally I thought you were implying that atheists claim to have certainty and theism embraces uncertainty. If that actually is what you meant to suggest then I'll gladly re-post my rebuttal.

My only beef is with people that are certain with no evidence...on any side. That is my argument/point.

 

[chaseter]

Why? There is no evidence for the existence of deities or ethereal beings. Would you hold someone in contempt for saying there are definitely no leprechauns? Nobody says, "as far as we know, leprechauns don't exist". They just say, leprechauns don't exist. Because the notion is silly. Why should this be any different?

Can you say for certain that Leprechauns don't exist? I don't think they exist but that doesn't mean I know without a shadow of a doubt that they don't. The universe is ever expanding. We live on a spec of dust in an ocean.

Here is the difference:
I don't believe in Leprechauns

not

There are no such things as Leprechauns


Again, who knows what we will know tomorrow. People that think they already know the answer are the ones who hold us back as a society...that is on either side.

HAHA Daisy has used South Park so I will use it here as well

South Park seems to have the answer to everything hahahaha.

 

[redhawk23]

My only beef is with people that are certain with no evidence...on any side. That is my argument/point.

The difference is one side doesn't value evidence to begin with.

We are fairly certain that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, not to mention humanity as a species. Do we have a timemachine? No. Can we prove that all the fossils weren't just put there by Slartibartfast to throw us off from the fact that Earth is actually a giant computer matrix? no.

But given the evidence at hand we are pretty damn sure. And if new evidence does arise our schema will be adjusted.

There is such thing as unreasonable doubt.

 

[redhawk23]

Can you say for certain that Leprechauns don't exist? I don't think they exist but that doesn't mean I know without a shadow of a doubt that they don't. The universe is ever expanding. We live on a spec of dust in an ocean.

Here is the difference:
I don't believe in Leprechauns

not

There are no such things as Leprechauns


Again, who knows what we will know tomorrow. People that think they already know the answer are the ones who hold us back as a society...that is on either side.

HAHA Daisy has used South Park so I will use it here as well

South Park seems to have the answer to everything hahahaha.

Okay but then can base our policies and treat eachother according to practical considerations rather than the unproven demands of an unprovable Leprechaun?

 

[random_havoc]

I have to ask, as with all of these articles found on Creationist sites, do these doctors ever bother putting this information that supposedly discredits Evolution in the form of a well researched paper to present for peer review in an actual science journal instead of writing propaganda pieces to feed to the scientifically illiterate?

This is a good response to that question.
http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review