Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 3

[Sloth7d]

First of all, ouch, what's with the sting in that statement? Seems a bit nasty to call me self centred when my only point was whether or not I'D be comfortable as a parent sending MY kid to a school that had a similar sort of christian influence. If it were the best school, I PERSONALLY wouldn't be put off by the fact it was CofE.

I said nothing about whether people of other faiths would or should.

Obviously I'm not saying people of different faiths should be fine with it, or that it should be present in all schools or even be a major part of the school system. And TBH, since I don't have a kid and haven't been in primary school for a very long time, I have no idea how much things have changed and if they even still do things like that in that school anymore.

It was just a comment on my personal lack of worry about it.

Although I'm an atheist, I have no problem with a child of mine being raised in a similar way to how I was, because I don't think it neccesarily brainwashes children into being christian... But like I said, I could be wrong and end up with a kid who believes it all heartily because of what they are told in school and I'll eat my words!

That's all I was saying I might be naïve about.

Think you took my thoughts the wrong way

Perhaps I did take it the wrong way. The implication that came across from your reply, at least to how I interpretted it, was that you have no problem with religion being introduced to kids in public schools because you, as a child, had an okay experience with it, but you understand another person's beef with it. If this wasn't the implication then I rescind my previous comment. If it is, then I wonder how you can understand another person's problem with it without being against it yourself. It seems like a contradiction, or at the very least, you are using your own experiences as a child as a an excuse not to care. That's why I said your view seemed self centered.

You also say that your experience and stance on this issue is not indicative that others should want to send their children to schools that allow religious influence in the class rooms. But if you acknowledge that they should have the right to be free from religious influences being pushed to their children, you must also acknowledge that it is best that the government make sure all schools remain secular in the case of those who don't have much choice on which school to send their children due to finance issues or location. Thus, wouldn't it be best for everyone if we kept the class rooms secular?

You say one reason you have no problem exposing your child to superstition is faith that he or she, whether they become influenced or not, will one day break out of the belief in pursuit of truth. But whether your child becomes converted to a set of beliefs you personally don't hold is only one potential outcome you may have to deal with. A worse problem is if, in a particular religious setting, your child does not take to that particular religion, and feels, or in fact, becomes ostricized because of the prejudicial setting such as in the cases of this girl in Hardesky Public School who was ostricized by her peers and teachers after not participating in a prayer circle, or Jessica Alquist a Jewish girl who felt excluded in her school for a the endorsement of another religion over her own by the school's banner.

If you say, it wasn't a big deal and that these students should just try to fit in, you contradict yourself. For if it wasn't a big deal, asking for a banner to be taken down or not going along with group prayer should not have gained these two the animosity they recieved for not conforming with the herd; in the case of Jessica, she has been harrassed by her peers on facebook and in school. The other girl appears to have faced ridicule according to her youtube page (unfortunately I can't find the old news clip that went with it.) Thus, again, your view seemed self centered to me because you naturally assumed your child would just play along until he broke out of that way of thinking like you did, but you never considered that he may make a target out of himself like the previous two students did.

But then again, maybe this is more a problem in America rather than the U.K. since we do have a Seperation of Church and State claus in our Constitution, and thus it's a bigger issue here. That's not to say I don't think this is ideal for every country to have, in fact, I think in any multicultural population the schools should remain secular as well as the government in general, but if it is the case that most parents and students in the U.K. just kind of go along with whatever traditions any school may have, I guess I'll simply stay mum on the matter as far as I can say to your situation. I really don't know too much about the modern laws or any (if any) cultural tensions in the U.K. So it seems I'm being too self centered in my thoughts as well.

 

[Speedball]

See, I'd probably be slightly more hesitant to send a kid to a catholic school because I always see catholicism as being more to with with Hell and sinning than the more 'gentle' denominations.

Sorry, but it's not true. I'll copy what I put in another thread:

"I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, had a religion class in each year, and you know what, my education was not as bigotted and backwards as the media would make you believe. I had nuns as a teacher for two years, and I would count them as the best two teachers I ever had. There was no aversion to sexuality, in fact we were taught it in seventh grade and freshman year of high school. They didn't say "oh, you're going to hell for having sex, or going to hell for being gay." They knew we were teenagers, and what happens when you're a teenager, and to be safe."

A lot of the students at the school weren't catholic, and there was no persecution against them. They were taught the same things as everyone else. There was an option to opt out of the religion classes, and no one really cared if you did.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

You also say that your experience and stance on this issue is not indicative that others should want to send their children to schools that allow religious influence in the class rooms. But if you acknowledge that they should have the right to be free from religious influences being pushed to their children, you must also acknowledge that it is best that the government make sure all schools remain secular in the case of those who don't have much choice on which school to send their children due to finance issues or location. Thus, wouldn't it be best for everyone if we kept the class rooms secular?

In the case of areas where there is only one CHOICE of course the school should be secular. No one should be FORCED to go to a church school.

But that's clearly not what I said

I am talking being in a situation where your choosing between schools. All i'm saying is, I wouldn't rule out the church school because I personally don't think it'd do my child any harm, because it never did me any harm.

You say one reason you have no problem exposing your child to superstition is faith that he or she, whether they become influenced or not, will one day break out of the belief in pursuit of truth. But whether your child becomes converted to a set of beliefs you personally don't hold is only one potential outcome you may have to deal with. A worse problem is if, in a particular religious setting, your child does not take to that particular religion, and feels, or in fact, becomes ostricized because of the prejudicial setting such as in the cases of this girl in Hardesky Public School who was ostricized by her peers and teachers after not participating in a prayer circle, or Jessica Alquist a Jewish girl who felt excluded in her school for a the endorsement of another religion over her own by the school's banner.

If you say, it wasn't a big deal and that these students should just try to fit in, you contradict yourself. For if it wasn't a big deal, asking for a banner to be taken down or not going along with group prayer should not have gained these two the animosity they recieved for not conforming with the herd; in the case of Jessica, she has been harrassed by her peers on facebook and in school. The other girl appears to have faced ridicule according to her youtube page (unfortunately I can't find the old news clip that went with it.) Thus, again, your view seemed self centered to me because you naturally assumed your child would just play along until he broke out of that way of thinking like you did, but you never considered that he may make a target out of himself like the previous two students did.

But then again, maybe this is more a problem in America rather than the U.K. since we do have a Seperation of Church and State claus in our Constitution, and thus it's a bigger issue here. That's not to say I don't think this is ideal for every country to have, in fact, I think in any multicultural population the schools should remain secular as well as the government in general, but if it is the case that most parents and students in the U.K. just kind of go along with whatever traditions any school may have, I guess I'll simply stay mum on the matter as far as I can say to your situation. I really don't know too much about the modern laws or any (if any) cultural tensions in the U.K. So it seems I'm being too self centered in my thoughts as well.

It is very very different in the UK and certainly very different here.

Even back when I was in primary school, there was a girl in our class who never came to assemblies or took party in the nativity play because of her families beliefs. She was never bullied for it. It was absolutely fine. No one batted an eyelid.

But granted, the area I live in is not very multi cultural. It's a rural area and it's not very diverse. There was not one child of a different race/colour in my entire class. So maybe that's why I don't think it's neccesary to make the school secular, particularly in my area, because there is simply no demand for it.

Perhaps in areas where there IS a lot of diversity in religious belief schools should all remain secular, so that a Muslim family doesn't have to miss out on sending their child to what is the best school just because it is a church school. I don't know. My statement, my opinion had nothing to do with that.

It was simply an opinion on whether or not I would have a problem sending my child to a church school. Which I wouldn't.

Sorry, but it's not true. I'll copy what I put in another thread:

"I went to a Catholic school for 12 years, had a religion class in each year, and you know what, my education was not as bigotted and backwards as the media would make you believe. I had nuns as a teacher for two years, and I would count them as the best two teachers I ever had. There was no aversion to sexuality, in fact we were taught it in seventh grade and freshman year of high school. They didn't say "oh, you're going to hell for having sex, or going to hell for being gay." They knew we were teenagers, and what happens when you're a teenager, and to be safe."

A lot of the students at the school weren't catholic, and there was no persecution against them. They were taught the same things as everyone else. There was an option to opt out of the religion classes, and no one really cared if you did.

That's fair enough. I kind of thought my slight hesitations were based more on the stereotypes than the actual facts anyway.

 

[8wid]

Here goes the idea that Hitler was an atheist...

Our Hitler is our Lord

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hitler's religion will probably always be debated.

But there is little evidence that he was an atheist.

 

[DBryan]

There's NO evidence that he was an atheist, and plenty of evidence he was a Christian.

 

[Pauline135]

everything that is wrong with his particular brand of religion.

 

[Kurosawa]

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-dismisses-charges-against-muslim-man-attacked-atheist-204051912.html

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Elvis must be better than Mary, he appears on better food.

 

[WildcatNC]

FYI to everyone. I've been kidding. I don't have any children and I'm an atheist....although worshiping the Nordic Gods would be sooooo much fun

I sometimes play at worshiping ancient pantheons (I tell them I pray to whomever is the appropriate Deity for what I desire to come to fruition, regardless of pantheon). I tell them stories and legends from ancient mythology (I love anthropology and mythology and know a lot about it) and wait for them to get incredulous and ask if I "really believe that nonsense". I then parallel it with biblical myths and stories that sound equally ridiculous until they quit talking or give the the blank stare of mind wipe, that look people get when they just tune out stuff that doesn't fit what they like to believe.

I'm never really mean about it but act engaging and interested in comparing the exploits of our gods and heroes. I have no problem with people believing anything they like, just don't pretend that your brand of nonsense is superior to someone else's nonsense. You may THINK that and that's fine too, just don't mistake your opinion for objective reality.

I actually have a back story of how the gods are real (involving the collective unconscious and beings there that are created by our will and worship and can influence us through the subconscious also.)

Its a fun diversion and a good way to mirror others nonsense so that they effectively confront themselves with it by being flabbergasted at how ridiculous you sound to them.

 

[DBryan]

So apparently atheist kids have been getting kidnapped and sent to re-education camps. Right in the USA.

http://boingboing.net/2012/02/26/teen-survivors-of-american-rel.html

Some horrific stories of torture and deprivation associated with these places.

 

[lordofthenerds]

Hitler's religion will probably always be debated.

But there is little evidence that he was an atheist.

It doesn't really matter what religion he was. It was his strong belief in eugenics and anti-semitism that made him commit the evil acts he's known for.

 

[DBryan]

He also thought Jesus was on his side. He wrote it in the Mein Kampf.

 

[lordofthenerds]

He also thought Jesus was on his side. He wrote it in the Mein Kampf.

I never read Mein Kampf, but did he ever say what he planned to do would be in the name of God/Jesus?

I think it's possible that Christianity added to his anti-semitism (with the belief that the Jews killed Jesus), but I don't think religion really fueled his actions. His anti-semitism was already there regardless of his belief in Jesus.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yes he did. Though evoking God in politics isn't exactly new. It's still fashionable in some circles.

Though by the end, Hitler certainly wasn't a conventional Christian, if he was Christian at all.

 

[enterthemadness]

Yes he did. Though evoking God in politics isn't exactly new. It's still fashionable in some circles.

Yep. Gingrich said in a debate that making decisions as a President is like beyond the comprehision of mere mortals. Something like that...

 

[lordofthenerds]

Thinking about it, it would make sense especially in Hitler's case to use religion. He was trying to change the world, create a "master race". When the majority of the people he's speaking to believe that a god controls the world and makes the decisions, he would obviously need to address this and get them to believe that their god's on his side.

I'm not denying that Hitler was a Christian. I'm just saying that even if he wasn't, in order to gain the support and power he did he would have to say what he was doing good in the eyes of God.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I doubt Hitler did what he did because he was Christian, though some Nazis certainly did. He exploited Christian prejudices against religious minorities. Hitler and his cronies had very strange, esoteric beliefs based on junk science and pseudo-history.

His actions and beliefs eventually brought him into conflict with Germany's old Christian guard (the nobility and clergy), and he killed thousands of them near the end, for conspiring against him. They did try to kill him a dozen times, and nearly succeeded in the end.

So it's actually fairly complex.

 

[WildcatNC]

Hitler definitely had a spiritual/mystic outlook, so I might venture that he was a more gnostic/alternative when it comes to christianity. Hard to know for sure.

Either way his was more of a secular agenda anyway, even if he used religion to justify it. Most all leaders do that.

 

[DBryan]

Conversation I'm having elsewhere on the internets.

Some guy - God still loves you.

Me - I know you mean well by saying that, but it means nothing to me if you can't demonstrate that its true.

Some guy - I'm not gonna judge you from your beliefs because you have reason behind why you believe that but I truly do mean it when I say that God loves you because he does, I do not know you but I will pray for you and you can count on that. I wish that you would a REAL Christian around you and talk to him. They're are many people out there that claim to be Christians but a REAL one can speak to you as a person and not judge you. I love you and so does God. Not trying to change you but just trying to talk.


What part of 'it means nothing to me if you can't demonstrate that its true' does he not understand?

These fuzzy wuzzy emotional pleas make me want to puke. They make me feel embarrassed more than anything. I don't even know how to respond to this type of stuff.

 

[8wid]

Bill Maher reads from The Purpose Driven Life

Daniel Dennett deconstructs "Purpose Driven Life" (SEGMENT)

 

[Thundercrack85]

The number of copies that book has sold really tells you something about our species.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Conversation I'm having elsewhere on the internets.

Some guy - God still loves you.

Me - I know you mean well by saying that, but it means nothing to me if you can't demonstrate that its true.

Some guy - I'm not gonna judge you from your beliefs because you have reason behind why you believe that but I truly do mean it when I say that God loves you because he does, I do not know you but I will pray for you and you can count on that. I wish that you would a REAL Christian around you and talk to him. They're are many people out there that claim to be Christians but a REAL one can speak to you as a person and not judge you. I love you and so does God. Not trying to change you but just trying to talk.


What part of 'it means nothing to me if you can't demonstrate that its true' does he not understand?

These fuzzy wuzzy emotional pleas make me want to puke. They make me feel embarrassed more than anything. I don't even know how to respond to this type of stuff.

Yeah, that's really annoying.

It shows no respect for your beliefs, and it's incredibly patronising.

The religious equivalent of a pat on the head.

 

[WildcatNC]

Yeah, that's really annoying.

It shows no respect for your beliefs, and it's incredibly patronising.

The religious equivalent of a pat on the head.

I often piss them off and that fuzzy wuzzy stuff usually goes straight out the window. I don't feel bad about it because I agree its terribly patronizing.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

A simple "Pics or GTFO" would probably suffice there.