Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 3

[childeroland]

I like the idea of Spinoza's God, if only He/it weren't so deterministic. 'There is no god and we are his prophets' to quote Cormac McCarthy.

 

[enterthemadness]

I'm somewhat along the lines of Joseph Campbell on my outlook.....




...in that I kinda' like the idea of God, but not the idea of religion.


Or...vice versa......

This post got me thinking while watching tv...think I have asked this before or made a post like this one...but

Okay, the God in the Old Testament wasn't exactly nice it seems from the info I've gathered online. So, Jesus is sent down to change all that? But Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are the same and one God? Ok. Wait? So Jesus dies and a new Testament comes out? Wait, the old testament came out before Jesus?

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'm sure that this has been asked before but I'll ask again anyway.

In light of all of the scientific advances that humanity has made, why do believers still believe so strongly in a deity? So much of what we have learned seems to disprove or at least contradict what religious texts say.

 

[KalMart]

I'm sure that this has been asked before but I'll ask again anyway.

In light of all of the scientific advances that humanity has made, why do believers still believe so strongly in a deity? So much of what we have learned seems to disprove or at least contradict what religious texts say.

Probably because God and religion means more to their lives than what science can address....and that science has yet to immutably disprove God's existence or the importance of a belief in God for those who do believe.

I think the fact that there are other religions raises more questions as to who's actually got the 'real' story right.

 

[DBryan]

A lot of the conversations I've had with theists in real life when atheism is brought up usually revolve around a couple of main points. There 'has' to be an afterlife. There just has to be. Life is depressing without the idea of an afterlife. What's the point of living? Your life has a purpose.

It's usually emotional arguments like that. What I found very recently when I was talking to a theist girl in real life was that, while our conversation was very civil and even fun, I kinda felt like what I was saying to her was going in one ear and out the other.

She brought up the point that life must be depressing without the idea of an afterlife.

To which I responded - we both have the SAME evidence. That evidence being that as far as we are both currently aware, this life is all we have.

This life is all the more important and every moment all the more precious because its all there is. Its all the more important to enjoy the limited time you have.

She pretty much said, 'isn't it depressing there won't be an afterlife?' not 5 seconds after I said all of that.

 

[enterthemadness]

Probably because God and religion means more to their lives than what science can address....and that science has yet to immutably disprove God's existence or the importance of a belief in God for those who do believe.

I think the fact that there are other religions raises more questions as to who's actually got the 'real' story right.

I just want to say I'm tooting my own horn here, and say certain types of Paganism. But honestly, who knows. Some people say Christian God and Islamic God are the same. Both came from same area. I may be wrong, but didn't Greek Gods and Roman Gods and Goddesses share the same deity, but had different names? I know the Moon has a few Goddesses names.

 

[Thundercrack85]

There is absolutely no evidence for an afterlife. And we actually know what happens when we die. Our bodies decompose.

The very idea of an afterlife is ridiculous and childish. Whether or not it is depressing, is irrelevant. Most realities are depressing.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'm curious to get an opinion from a theist.

I agree that the emotional aspect of death being depressing is irrelevant, no matter how true it is.

 

[enterthemadness]

A lot of the conversations I've had with theists in real life when atheism is brought up usually revolve around a couple of main points. There 'has' to be an afterlife. There just has to be. Life is depressing without the idea of an afterlife. What's the point of living? Your life has a purpose.

It's usually emotional arguments like that. What I found very recently when I was talking to a theist girl in real life was that, while our conversation was very civil and even fun, I kinda felt like what I was saying to her was going in one ear and out the other.

She brought up the point that life must be depressing without the idea of an afterlife.

To which I responded - we both have the SAME evidence. That evidence being that as far as we are both currently aware, this life is all we have.

This life is all the more important and every moment all the more precious because its all there is. Its all the more important to enjoy the limited time you have.

She pretty much said, 'isn't it depressing there won't be an afterlife?' not 5 seconds after I said all of that.

Someone said in this thread or in another thread on this board, that purpose of life is to reproduce...raise your offspring to a certain age, repeat.

As for an afterlife...like some others have said, probably more likely of a 'Our soul or spirit or energy becomes one with the universe' than a actual Heaven, Hell, Purgatory type of deal. I don't what to say it, but like the classic and sadly canceled ABC Soap, there's only One Life to Live.

 

[DBryan]

Which leads me to something else that is on my mind from time to time.

I really do think that religion emotionally and intellectually limits people. It stunts them to an extent.

I constantly see examples of religious people shutting down when presented with views that contrast with their own. They don't like to think outside of their own preconceived world view, so in a sense when they're presented with a conflicting view it really does go in one ear and out the other. They kind of only hear what they want to hear.

I'm bothered when theists, and even some atheists, say that without religion the world would still have wars and would still have problems. Of course it would. But religion definitely makes it so much easier for people to accept and stubbornly hold onto irrational, uninformed view points, and those view points do NOT exist in a vacuum. Those view points affect the world. From contraception and the arguable damage done by the Catholic church in parts of Africa, to the denial of evolution and funding of creationism in the USA, to the support of Israel and zionism, to the anti-Iran propaganda pushing us into war from some very powerful people who are essentially eager to fulfill end times prophecy.

We have an obligation to help others move into the future.

 

[lordofthenerds]

There is absolutely no evidence for an afterlife. And we actually know what happens when we die. Our bodies decompose.

The very idea of an afterlife is ridiculous and childish. Whether or not it is depressing, is irrelevant. Most realities are depressing.

The believers of the afterlife that I know often make it sound as if the thought of no longer existing in mind is unfathomable. I don't see why not existing is so unbelievable. What were you before you were born?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Which leads me to something else that is on my mind from time to time.

I really do think that religion emotionally and intellectually limits people. It stunts them to an extent.

I constantly see examples of religious people shutting down when presented with views that contrast with their own. They don't like to think outside of their own preconceived world view, so in a sense when they're presented with a conflicting view it really does go in one ear and out the other. They kind of only hear what they want to hear.

I'm bothered when theists, and even some atheists, say that without religion the world would still have wars and would still have problems. Of course it would. But religion definitely makes it so much easier for people to accept and stubbornly hold onto irrational, uninformed view points, and those view points do NOT exist in a vacuum. Those view points affect the world. From contraception and the arguable damage done by the Catholic church in parts of Africa, to the denial of evolution and funding of creationism in the USA, to the support of Israel and zionism, to the anti-Iran propaganda pushing us into war from some very powerful people who are essentially eager to fulfill end times prophecy.

We have an obligation to help others move into the future.

But isnt one man's "help others move into the future" another man's indoctrination? Let's say we somehow even manage to make America into a fully secular society? Would we be able to do the same for the Middle East and Asia? Wont many people fight to the bitter end to preserve their religion? Think of what a cost that would be to humanity. Countless numbers killed, untold monetary damage, etc.

Maybe the nonreligious are better off just leaving earth and starting over somewhere else. But even then, they would still be dependent on earth for supplies, at least for a while.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It is a useful tool in keeping social order. To a point. But it does assume that you are content with living in the past.

Depressingly enough, some people truly do need religion. Some people would act (more) amorally without religion. It's rather scary that someone needs to be terrified of something to be good.

The people who say we need "God" to be good, are usually right. Right about themselves.

 

[enterthemadness]

Which leads me to something else that is on my mind from time to time.

I really do think that religion emotionally and intellectually limits people. It stunts them to an extent.

I constantly see examples of religious people shutting down when presented with views that contrast with their own. They don't like to think outside of their own preconceived world view, so in a sense when they're presented with a conflicting view it really does go in one ear and out the other. They kind of only hear what they want to hear.

I'm bothered when theists, and even some atheists, say that without religion the world would still have wars and would still have problems. Of course it would. But religion definitely makes it so much easier for people to accept and stubbornly hold onto irrational, uninformed view points, and those view points do NOT exist in a vacuum. Those view points affect the world. From contraception and the arguable damage done by the Catholic church in parts of Africa, to the denial of evolution and funding of creationism in the USA, to the support of Israel and zionism, to the anti-Iran propaganda pushing us into war from some very powerful people who are essentially eager to fulfill end times prophecy.

We have an obligation to help others move into the future.

Dude, did you see the video where Rick Santorum years ago was at a meeting? Like a...basically Christians who are eager to see the Rapture happen? Yeah, don't need a President like that.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But isnt one man's "help others move into the future" another man's indoctrination? Let's say we somehow even manage to make America into a fully secular society? Would we be able to do the same for the Middle East and Asia? Wont many people fight to the bitter end to preserve their religion? Think of what a cost that would be to humanity. Countless numbers killed, untold monetary damage, etc.

Maybe the nonreligious are better off just leaving earth and starting over somewhere else. But even then, they would still be dependent on earth for supplies, at least for a while.

It's true. Humans may never outgrow religion. Humans are fickle. They'll believe just about anything if you teach it to them at a young enough age, and repeat it enough.

Man this thread is a downer.

Having said that, I hear HD 85512 b is lovely this time of year.

 

[enterthemadness]

It's true. Humans may never outgrow religion. Humans are fickle. They'll believe just about anything if you teach it to them at a young enough age, and repeat it enough.

Man this thread is a downer.

Having said that, I hear HD 85512 b is lovely this time of year.

Looks kinda like Earth...a thought just occurred to me. Let's say we find a planet in our lifetime. That we know is 100% liveable. And like we had Terra Nova type tech...like a Stargate if I may say so...I honestly don't know if you can have 'religion' on another planet. Why? Because I think most people would agree that the 'Earth is Special'. If that makes sense.

I sometimes think if 'friendly Aliens' arrived on Earth they would be Atheists. Like they would say 'Primitive Race, still has religion. They go to war with each other. Even got NWO theories, that's cute' I believe in the NWO theories, but I can see how a person or say an Alien Race would say ' seriously, a NWO would have risen by now lolz if true'

 

[Thundercrack85]

The real problem would be that most religions are extremely Earth-centric. Since for most of our existence, we assumed Earth was the center of the universe. To someone born and raised on a world trillions of miles away, Earth is little more than a distant memory. I would not at all be surprised that if we did colonize another world, that the people there would develop their own religion or spirituality.

I don't think you can build a functioning interstellar civilization and still have the kind of religiosity we have today. That's not to say aliens can't be religious. But it will be more spiritual than fundamentalist.

I have little doubt that the aliens' gods will look very much like aliens that worship them.

 

[DBryan]

Dude, did you see the video where Rick Santorum years ago was at a meeting? Like a...basically Christians who are eager to see the Rapture happen? Yeah, don't need a President like that.

Wow. I've not seen that video. But Santorum being at a meeting like that? Does not surprise me.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It actually should. Catholics don't believe in the rapture.

 

[enterthemadness]

I don't know the name of the YouTube video, but it was a documentary filmed by a Jewish guy I think.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't know the name of the YouTube video, but it was a documentary filmed by a Jewish guy I think.

Oh, I don't disbelieve you. But Santorum claims to be a Catholic at least.

The guy seems to forget he's not Protestant whenever it suits him.

 

[DBryan]

I think as technology develops, religion and its place in society will shrink more and more. I think the information age can take a lot of credit for the rise of atheism over the last decade.

If USA and UK become entirely secular, we won't need to go to war with fundamentalist countries, those fundamentalist countries will also slowly but surely become more secular all by themselves. The rise in the ease of access in information would ensure it.

If we could discover other life on other planets, or move some humans to a planet that can support life, that really would take away the Earth-centric POV of the main religions... it would make god's place in society shrink massively. But it is a big if. I very much doubt we'd discover life on other planets or be able to colonize other planets in our lifetimes.

I think one technology that would practically put the nail in the coffin of religion would be the successful transference of consciousness into a computer. That's another big if. Is such a thing possible, and possible within our lifetime? But if it did happen, it basically eliminates the number 1 reason why people latch onto religion - the desire for an afterlife. If we could transfer consciousness into a computer, we'd have essentially created our own afterlife. Imagine the possibilities. Your physical body will one day die, but you can live on in an idealistic virtual reality world. Kinda scary, in a way. I guarantee that if that technology were ever invented, almost overnight people would abandon their religions in droves.

Personally, I don't need something so science fiction as that, to be comfortable being an atheist. But it would certainly make it easier for some in our current society to have that comfort of being able to 'live on'.

 

[enterthemadness]

Kinda scary, in a way. I guarantee that if that technology were ever invented, almost overnight people would abandon their religions in droves.

I wouldn't abandon mine. I can see Pagans, Wiccans, Hindu's, Buddhists being around still. Correct me if wrong, but Hindu's...aren't they kinda athiest in a way? And Buddhists are like...one with the Earth...monks...Imma wiki those two.

 

[DBryan]

I think you're pretty much correct.

Anyway, I discovered this on twitter today.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11837410-why-evolution-is-still-a-theory

Possibly the dumbest attempt to refute evolution I have ever seen. I registered there for the sole purpose of leaving a comment on that article.

It's really so stupid that I am bamboozled as to how someone can be that dumb.

 

[enterthemadness]

All of her or his reasons were stupid. I think my IQ dropped by 10 points after I read the first reason.

"If evolution was true, then people wouldn't need to sleep."

Reading it a second time has put me in a pissy mood.