Discussion in 'The Avengers Sequels' started by Artistsean, May 15, 2009.
Bigger Avenger roster, bigger and badder villains.
What about working in Henry Gyrich and the idea of him controlling the team and kicking members out and stuff? That whole thing where he puts restrictions on the team and forces them to cut members?
^ Fox owns the rights to Gyrich, at least I think so. He was in the first X-men movie as an aid to senator Kelly.
I was originally OK with the idea of including Spider-Man in the sequel. The more star power the better. But they would have to take a top guy out of there for it not to be overcrowded. Maybe if Downey doesn't want to do a sequel and they have to replace him with a huge Marvel character. Then they'll bring Garfield in as Spidey? But the balance wouldn't be the same imo.
That's why i dont like it anymore when it's suggested. A skinny teenage boy, even if he's almost 20, it would just be weird having Peter Parker in a meeting with all these 30 something year old adults who are in battle? Nah.
I'm usually not a marvel guy or Avengers guy so i don't know as much as you all do. I guess there's tons of new characters & villains that are more suitable for the sequel. Names that would be obscure to the general audience.
His first comic appearance was in Avengers though, so maybe they have dibs?
I was thinking of possible routes Marvel could go and continue to push the envelope, and I came up with the following fantasy scenario:
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
(Possibly revamped as a cosmic team lead by Captain Marvel, they try to stop Thanos and fail more or less, but Miss Marvel is created)
Possibly a Black Panther or Dr. Strange Movie
Avengers 2- Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet
Heroes for Hire
Black Panther/Doc Strange Intro Duction
Avengers 3 - Team deals with Super powered Tech Baddies ala Secret War, perhaps from an over thrown Wakanda rather than Latveria
Secret Avengers- Same summer as Avengers 3, this covers the invasion/war team created by Fury, toppling the Wakanda Government, Fury goes into hiding, Many Avengers 3 scenes from new perspectives.
After Avengers 3/Secret Avengers opinion is split and we have two Avengers teams. The damage caused leads to registration calls, and Fury is in hiding, Stark/Hill run Shield. Setting up -
Avengers: Civil War- A scaled down version of the comic, between the two Avengers Teams.
I know I'm dreaming, since the actors would all be too old, but I can dream, and I think covering Secret War and Civil War would be Amazing.
I don't think there's 'dibs.' If Fox has the rights, then they have the rights. Black Panther's first appearance was in FF, but he's not a part of the FF story, y'know?
I'd like to change my previous sequel ideas, btw.
Pre TA2: IM3, Thor2, Cap2, BlackPanther, Edgar Wright's Ant-Man
TA2: Ultron gets set up in all these films as a product of all of the heroes, so he's personal to all of them (ie, Designed by Pym, Vibranium body, built self at Stark facility, Cosmic Cube Power Source lost by Thor, made self aware by discussion with Cap), at which point he turns the whole world upside down via some uberhacking and then brings it to the Avengers personally, threatening family members bringing back villains (ie, letting Abomination loose, finding Red Skull, remotely controlling the Iron Monger) putting them at each other's throats. BP joins at the beginning, Vision at the end. Carol Danvers is supporting cast in SHIELD, but no powers. One Avenger tragically dies in the climactic battle.
Pre TA3: Dr. Strange, Thor 3, Cap 3, Guardians of the Galaxy
TA 3: Ms. Marvel now has powers and Thanos intel from GotG. One Ant-Man or another has joined the squad in a relatively minor Hawkeye-sized role. Thanos, now built up and explored in the GotG movie, wages war on everything, Asgard falls, the world in almost complete shambles, nothing left but to fight with everything they have. Very much a war movie, with a combat-lighter background quest, like Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, that pays off and wraps up every single storyline.
Pre TA4: BP2, IM4, Iron Fist, SHIELD
TA 4: Establishes the Avengers as a SHIELD-sanctioned team that Fury keeps on call, can call on selected operatives to deal with world-class threats as needed. Perhaps they'll fight Kang in this one.
Post TA4:BP3, GotG 2, IM5, Heroes for Hire, who knows, y'know?
TA5,6,7: Continue this cycle, perhaps as a trilogy dealing with the Kree/Skrull("Chitauri?") War, with Ronan and others, Disassembled, and maybe even Korvac.
TA8,9,X: If it gets that far, call me.
Iron man 3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, Doctor strange and Ant Man with maybe a cameo for vision or black panther leading up to avengers
Kang comes back from a future where he is the ruler of earth. He comes back because thanos destroys the earth in the present making his reality messed up so he goes back in time to conquer the earth and ready the military for thanos arrival.
What if they redid the whole introducing characters in their own movies thing?
Let Cap do Cap Amer. 2, Iron Man do Iron Man 3, do a Thor 2, do an Ant Man film, and then bring them back together in Avengers 2 after those solo film. With the new introduction of Ant Man from his own solo film you repeat the idea.
I see Thanos returning a lot sooner than some of you are expecting.
Like, next year.
I see Thor 2, in particular, picking up almost exactly where Avengers left off. We open in Asgard, with Loki put on trial before Odin and the other Asgardians for his treachery. While the trial is going on, Thor re-connects with old friends --- Heimdall, Sif, the Warriors Three. The trial concludes with Loki being sentenced to an unbelievably harsh banishment sentence --- in the comics/myths, he undergoes a Promethean-type penance, with the Midgard Serpent eternally dripping acid into his propped-open eyeballs.
Meantime, Odin takes a quiet moment in the Treasury to tell Thor how proud he is of the god he has become, and believes he is responsible enough to take the throne soon. Suddenly, the Cosmic Cube starts acting up, and, just like in Avengers, someone is opening a portal on the other side. Loki? Thor wonders. No, Odin replies....worse.
Thanos teleports into the Treasury Room in all his glory. Explains how he manipulated Loki like a pawn to maneuver the Cube into this room, where Thanos can now claim the prize he was actually after all along --- his "stolen" Infinity Gauntlet. Thor, Odin, Heimdall, the Warriors Three, Sif....all fall before Thanos' might. Thanos takes the Gauntlet and escapes back into the Cosmos, leaving Asgard in ruins (and maybe Odin dead, or on death's door).
Thor needs to find Thanos, and find *some* way to defeat him. The only way he can track him is through someone who knows how to open wormholes in space. Odin is too weak (or, again, maybe even dead) to transport Thor away, so his only chance is to summon what little resources he has left to combine with Heimdall to reestablish a temporary bridge back to Midgard, where he can find Dr. Selvig and Jane Foster at the observatory in Norway.
But after a long-delayed reunion, Jane and Selvig inform Thor that it's not going to be that simple to just "home in" on Thanos and the Gauntlet. They'll need to have some kind of concept of where Thanos actually lives in the universe. And Thor knows of only one being who has seen the Throne of Thanos....his banished half-brother....
I don't think it'll be a good idea to have more than one character added to the Avengers, two at the most if they arrive in a pair like the Pyms.
It's not like with the X-men where you just have to show their personality quirks and powers. With the Avengers you also have to show how they got their powers and how they relate to the story. If you have Vision, Ms Marvel and Black Panther for example that's pretty complicated to explain without having everyone else fade into the background.
I agree. Vision, BP and Ms Marvel are all great characters but I wouldn't want any of them for the sake of it. BP frankly needs his own movie first like Hulk, IM etc, so that you don't end up wasting Avenger-movie-time on 'origins' stuff (which takes time and skill to get right anyway).
The Pyms are a different matter for me. Regardless of the Ant-Man movie or how it fits in with Avengers, Hank's a pretty easy character to incorporate into Avengers 2 - he's a super-scientist like some of the others, SHIELD can head hunt him or whatever. He's also the only Avenger (as much as I love Wasp, Witch, Vision and co) that I personally NEED to see in an Avengers movie.
Only problem for me is diversity - he's yet another white male on the team. I'd like him to replace Hulk, who was awesome in first movie but doesn't actually need to be there any more (based on comics). In Avengers movie Banner was there for his brain, so if he left Hank would be a logical replacement. Include Jan and there's at least another chick on the team.
Thanos will definitely make an appearance and have an effect, but... I don't think Thor 2 will revolve around him and his actions. I think Thor will revolve around Thor's personal development. He's already had the 'lost my father' storyline, for instance. Thanos will probably still be in the shadows, at a distance, somewhat mysterious to non-comics fans.
If they've had their own solo movies, or appeared in someone else's, then you don't have to explain *how* they got their powers, just what their powers are and their personality, and all that has to fit with the movie's storyline. That's why you can't do an origin with Avengers, cuz there's no time to spend on a separate storyline that doesn't tie into the main storyline. There's barely enough time to give six people great character moments and action moments and serve the story. There's simply not enough time to do the same for seven or eight people. At least, not unless we treat them like Hawkeye, in that they aren't really integrated into the team's social storyline, don't have their own character arc, and they don't really have much in terms of abilities, to show off, so we can show it all in just a few minutes. I don't think that works for Black Panther, Ms. Marvel or Vision.
I don't see Thanos being the main villain in Thor 2...I just see him as a first-act plot catalyst. I think he *does* infiltrate the Treasury Room as I described above, and Thor begins an epic chase across the Nine Realms after him....but really, Thor doesn't even get close to seeing him again for this film. Maybe a glimpse of him again at the very ending, but otherwise, I see the bulk of the film being about the side-quests and cosmic encounters Thor has while he tracks his vanished quarry. Encounters that may or may not include Enchantress and Skurge, Surtur, Fenris, Ymir, Malekith, Hela, Karnilla and the like.
That makes Thanos the main villain. You even say all the other villains are side quests. That means they're not the main villain. If he does infiltrate the Treasury room, that will be the side quest, a relatively minor plot point, like SHIELD in IM2, or in Thor, not the catalyst for the rest of the action in the movie. And doing so with a bad guy you're not going to get closure with... I don't see how that can be a good movie.
That gets a bit tricky though. Not every Avenger will have their own movie and I know a fair few people will complain if some random person appears in somebody else's movie and has such a major moment as the time they get their powers. I know the Widow got a bit of flak for this in Iron Man 2.
I agree with what you said about giving the others enough time to develop. I think you can make it to seven though. Any more and it's too much.
Take for example if Ms Marvel is the new character. She brings a new dynamic (and more diversity) but most of all, if the storyline has a cosmic essense in it, then you can write in that Special Agent Carol Danvers was investigating first contact with an alien race when she got her powers. The Avengers are called in to interview her and investigate the object. So that works for the story.
Seven is the max though. After that, you'll need to start dropping Avengers.
Hmmm... they might could possibly do seven. It's possible, but a lot of little stuff would have to give.
I'd like to see Ultron and the Vision like many have said, but I think going in a less predictable direction is more exciting to discuss. I think introducing Dr. Henry Pym and Janet Pym as the two new scientists on board the SHIELD carrier who were responsible behind the "Phase II" weaponry. They're now studying the possibilities of cybernetics and Life Model Decoys with Stark and Banner. Eventually, Michael Korvac comes into the picture from an alternative universe and has absorbed some of the power from the Cosmic Cube, which is now in the possession of Thanos if he takes it at the end of Thor 2--which I hope he does. He comes to Earth to make it a utopia, unlike Loki he actually wants to rebuild by destroying and reshaping. They could also introduce Dr. Strange as someone who is more of a cross between Thor's godly power and Stark's science. And in the end, Korvac is defeated and killed by Thanos when he tries to retreat because Thanos is upset he tried to claim the galaxy for himself. This ends directly where The Avengers 3 can pick-up, Earth is in shambles, perfect time for Thanos to strike.
Just an idea.
Eh, I know it's risky to set up a main villain and not get a payoff in that same movie, but you can look at it the same way as Sauron (or even the Nazgul) in LOTR. The Nine don't take on Sauron until film three, but in the meantime, you've got plenty of action against the Balrog, Saruman and Gollum.
It's much more risky, because instead of setting the expectation of incomplete stories from the beginning and promising a payoff at a certain time, like LOTR did, you're disappointed the audience whose come to expect payoff from each of the Marvel Studios films, and indeed, from the Thor franchise. It'd be like the Matrix. The first one was self contained, the second one wasn't, and everyone was pissed.
It's important to note the difference between defeating a bad guy and defeating a bad guy's "scheme"
The Avengers don't have to kill Thanos in A2 to conclude the movie
I think a pretty logical progression of the movies would be something like
Cap and Iron Man are pretty grounded movies, no cosmic influence but maybe some subtleties like AIM in Cap who it turns out is a sleeper cell organization who is given tech from another dimension, or something involving the Universal Church of Truth
Thor 2 is kinda the IM2 of "Phase 2" which has a big hand in setting up the events of Avengers 2
Enchantress and Executioner stage a coup on Asgard to capture Loki and take him across the galaxy cause Thanos has put a huge bounty on his head. Thor begs her if there is any other way and she says if they go and get the Infinity Gem that controlls the dead. The gem is hidden deep inside the Nine Realms and they are going to have to use SWORD to help them find the location of it.
They go on the quest and find the stone, Enchantress uses the stone to raise an army of undead to take over the throne of Asgard, but Thor, Loki and co save the day etc.
Star-Lord or Adam Warlock come to Earth and their presence alerts SHIELD, they tell them that because of the events of Thor 2 the once thought of mythic Infinty Gems are now known to be a science instead of just a fable. The Mad-Titan Thanos is storming the galaxy, killing anything in his way to assemble the Gauntlet. The Avengers must go and find the rest of the infinity gems and guard them in Asgard, the best equipped place in the universe to battle a cosmic threat like Thanos, so the Avengers travel the galaxy and find the gems and guard them in Asgard to prepare for a huge war.
However Adam Warlock reveals himself to be a servant of the Lord Titan Thanos (clearly under mind control) and battles the avengers with sleeper cell members of the Universal church of truth. A lone spaceship lands in Asgard and Thanos walks out, revealed in full for the first time--Warlock hands him the Gauntlet, Thanos grins and blasts Warlock with a load of energy saying your services will no longer be needed.
The Avengers are noticabley terrified and they actually flee as Asgard crumbles around them with the flick of Thanos wrist. Odin tells them that he is going to use all the power he can summon and get the Avengers back to Earth....they are the universes last hope, he tells them with the Bifrost still broken it will keep Thanos in Asgard for the time being. He sends Adam Warlock too, then Odin implodes with a white light and all the Avengers appear on Earth, Odin is presumed dead so Thor is broken up. Loki says something like "The All-Father could have sent Thanos and Asgard into the Abyss...it could be years before he comes out." Fury "we'll have to be ready when he does."
there is some brief closer and then credits.
post-credits teaser: Thor goes to kill Warlock when Star-Lord appears and says Warlock is the only chance we have at stopping Thanos
Gaurdians of the Galaxy: kind of a prequel to the events that lead up to Avengers 2, shows the relationship between Thanos and Warlock a little bit....Thanos isn't overtly a bad guy in this, more like Loki in Thor 1
A3: Opening scene is Thanos meeting death as a woman. and then it's basically about the infinity gauntlet and avengers being the only ones who can stop them. Maybe some self sacrficie by Loki who knows
I would use female Ultron in the sequel (EDI from Mass Effect 3 inspired me). I don't think she needs to be a threat from solely a physical point of view but a psychological one as well. A female would be better equipped to get inside the heads of our male dominated superhero roster, providing a more sensual dynamic by being both a competent and seductive adversary for the Avengers. Example, Hank and Janet could be driven apart from one another with Hank's obsession with Ultron. Stark could try to replace Jarvis with the upgraded software because he thinks it has more sex appeal than Paul Bettany. Banner could use Ultron as a secondary psychologist to cope with his mental instability. Thor could explore man's relationship with technology as see how the two are connected, although regular Ultron would suffice for a lot of that.