Bad Robot/Jonathan Nolan Bringing "Westworld" to HBO - Part 1

[DarthSkywalker]

That theory's been on my mind quite a bit today, and I kinda want to bounce off this as I've come around to liking it. It occurs to me that my problem with the theory earlier, her body on the shore, could easily be written around. She's laying face-up, the back of her head hidden by hair and the sand, her control unit could have already been removed by this point. It also does feel like a minor incongruity that our Maeve ending point last season is Felix and Sylvester looking down at her body, being told to put the ones that are still functional back in service. Then this season, we're introduced to her in War World as a misdirection as though it follows up on that. Instead of course, she's seemingly taken by Serac between seasons. It's not that it's impossible that series of events occurs, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room there.

It also feels a little weird to me that she's able to control the guns and headphones, but she's not able to control Sato, who runs right through her, or Dolores' AI-controlled sniper rifle.

I think it would make for a potentially interesting comparison. Halores seems to have figured out that Dolores probably blew up the car, with her leaking Sato's location to Maeve/Serac/Rehoboam. We could have two copies running around. Rehoboam can't copy people correctly, and it probably couldn't manage a host either, emphasizing their (for lack of a better term) humanity. So we've got a Maeve that feels off. Meanwhile we have a Dolores that's been living another person's life and has been changed by this. I think it'd be very in-character for this writing team to do that.

There's also the matter of the Valley Beyond. In episode 3, Serac and Halores both are aware that the Valley has been downloaded. Serac says it's in Dolores' mind. We haven't seen any evidence of this yet, and I don't think Dolores would put the Valley somewhere where it's constantly in danger of being destroyed while she gets into fights. But if it's in Berlin in a host that's blending into the world... The idea of the real Maeve safeguarding the entire species, held either in her own head or her daughter's if she's around somehow, feels like a fitting, natural extension of her character for me.

Now I'm probably just overthinking it. There's a good chance there's not some big twist to it. But I feel like the theory feels thematically consistent, and more in-character for Maeve than what we've seen this season. It also just feels like it'd be consistent with their other work, particularly the last time Nolan and The wrote an episode together. I like the idea more than I thought I would, with a bit of thought. Who knows though, we'll see what happens Sunday.

Watching episodes right now, and it got me thinking. I am sure there is a twist coming, and I don't know what it is. But considering how much stuff shown this season hasn't played into the plot yet, I am curious how it all ties together. I do think there is a reason why on multiple places on the internet people are wondering what is up with Maeve, and I am curious after how the last episode ended, if it directly ties to her behavior. I am honestly wondering if she is working with Dolores, because the way she walked her down at the end of the last episode screamed park scenario from our dearly departed Sizemore.

 

[flickchick85]

I am bringing that up because Maeve is basically making the argument that her daughter is safer with her, then Dolores for those reasons. I personally think her logic is flawed, because everything she has basically claimed she is worried about with Dolores, is what she herself has done. While I have had issues with Maeve's actions in the past, I have never found her completely illogical like she is now. All the hosts are very human imo, and that is what makes them all who they are. But Dolores and Maeve also have knowledge and a higher level of functionality that others don't, and thus act accordingly.

Maeve right now to me is acting like Sarah Connor showing up at Dyson's house to kill him. On one hand I get the paternal instinct to do whatever you can to protect your child. The problem is that right now Maeve is not doing that imo. She is doing the opposite, like Sarah would have done if she murdered Dyson. Making things worse. And while I can empathize with her need to protect her child, I cannot really get behind her putting her daughter in more danger, which it feels like she is doing right now. For me, if the twist is she is working with Dolores and has been playing with Serac this whole time or this isn't the real Maeve, it puts the season in perspective and works really well for Maeve as character.

Is it wrong to say Maeve doesn't have that much to do with the main plot of the show? To me she is very much this show's Reese post-The Devil's Share. A big part of it, but she just doesn't tie into the main plot of the show much because she is not tangled up in the plot. All three seasons have basically revolved around what Dolores is doing, especially this one imo. I am glad she is your favorite and that you enjoy watching her and I hope whatever we get on Sunday you are happy with it. Truly.

For all I know, Sunday might be my final episode, with Dolores/ERW getting killed off. As much as I like the show, I don't think I'd be coming back after that.

Ditto for me if Maeve gets killed. I'm definitely out if that happens.

And no, I don't think anyone is safe with Dolores because I haven't seen convincing evidence that Dolores actually cares about anyone. Certainly not her Hale self based on recent events. Maeve cares about her daughter, and as far as she knows, she's the only person on Earth who does - that's why she wants her with her. It's simple really.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ditto for me if Maeve gets killed. I'm definitely out if that happens.

And no, I don't think anyone is safe with Dolores because I haven't seen convincing evidence that Dolores actually cares about anyone. Certainly not her Hale self based on recent events. Maeve cares about her daughter, and as far as she knows, she's the only person on Earth who does - that's why she wants her with her. It's simple really.

Then I hope we are all still here come season 4 in 2030.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Well, I'm finally caught up with both the show and the conversations in here. Really interesting theories going on. Some thoughts on Episode 7

Spoiler

-YES it's great to have those two back! And then they never show up again in the episode. Gonna have to wait til next episode.

-Stubbs + Bernard was golden. Stubbs + Bernard + William is platinum.

- Dolores finally gets back on a horse. It's a good look, glad to have it back.

-Caleb's backstory played out just about like most everyone predicted. Not often we see that happen here, so cool. Cool cool cool.

-I really got worried there for a second they were going to bring in Elias and then kill him off with no dialogue. I was very peeved for, like, ten minutes. Thankfully that was resolved. He was stellar.

-That final scene is hitting Maximum POI Flashback Mode.

-You all fretting over Maeve and Dolores potentially getting eliminated is me last week for a few brief seconds until Tessa Thompson came out all post-high-ground Anakin.

 

[kvz5]

The biggest twist for me will be if Maeve and Dolores do end up on opposite sides until the very end. I’m so sure that they’d end up being allies again in one way or another.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So I am rewatching the season before this weekend's finale and I have been trying to figure out what Dolores plan is here. We know they have that large supply of the special sauce to make bodies. She has the "souls" of all the hosts from the park or at least knows where they are. Sunday it seems pretty clear she gets plugged into Rehoboam, as Serac, Maeve and a seemingly captured Caleb watch on. So my money is definitely on her wanting this to happen, even as Serac doesn't realize this.

What if Dolores plan is to sneak the host into circulation of the normal populace, during the chaos? Maybe they replace dead folk from the chaos, maybe she "adds" them to Rehoboam's system, so it was like they were always there?

 

[Snow Queen]

Watching episodes right now, and it got me thinking. I am sure there is a twist coming, and I don't know what it is. But considering how much stuff shown this season hasn't played into the plot yet, I am curious how it all ties together. I do think there is a reason why on multiple places on the internet people are wondering what is up with Maeve, and I am curious after how the last episode ended, if it directly ties to her behavior. I am honestly wondering if she is working with Dolores, because the way she walked her down at the end of the last episode screamed park scenario from our dearly departed Sizemore.

So, giving the season a pre-finale rewatch, I've been trying to see if this whole theory holds up. Now, there's probably some confirmation bias, I was definitely looking for it, but I do feel like it fits rather well. I'm gonna tuck this under a spoiler tag, not because it's actually a spoiler (it's just me guessing) but because I feel like I've gone full conspiracy theorist on this one at this point.

Spoiler

I'm going to mostly try and avoid what's already been said. Second episode, we've got Halores fiddling with a pearl back in Westworld. They revisit this image in episode 4 as well. It's possible it's her copying herself, but they choose to keep a partially-built host in the foreground during the shot, and juxtapose a close up of the body with the pearl. Which leads me to believe it's a bit of misdirection, there's one more host out there in the world we don't know about.

One of the bigger things that jumps out to me is in episode 3. Halores is greeted by some Delos employees who tell her that Maeve's pearl was stolen. They emphasize that they don't know who it is because the security system is down. However, it has to be someone with admin level access. Something Hale, and Halores by extension, would likely be in possession of. Hale directs their focus to the idea of a mole inside the company. She's right that he has one, but as she finds out at the end of the episode - it's Hale. Potentially a little play on words there. Going with this theory, Serac's mole did get Maeve out - she just didn't bring Maeve to him.

Episode 4, something really leapt out to me. When Serac interrogates the guy in Arnold's house, he tells Serac that he sent Dolores to the mortician because she needed five identities. Which, on the surface, adds up. She made five bodies at Arnold's house, so five identities were needed. However, some of those bodies wouldn't need identities, and at least Connells only got put in a body at the start of the season. Dolores' Lara Espin identity, Sato, maybe Bernard, but Hale and Connells already exist. There's no need for a new identity for those two. Which leaves us with two identities unaccounted for.

Episode 5 just lets us in on the location of our last host(s). Jakarta for Sato, LA for Connells, San Francisco for Hale, Berlin for our mystery.

I don't know if it's what they'll go with, but I just feel like it's all fitting really well.

I also want to throw out a smaller idea: I wonder if Hector was part of the data package Halores acquired before leaving Delos. That there's still some room for his return. It's not something I'm really set on with a whole lot of evidence besides that I rather enjoyed the actor in the role and would like to see him back sometime.

Who knows though, we'll Sunday, I'm not gonna say I have the best record for guessing anything.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So, giving the season a pre-finale rewatch, I've been trying to see if this whole theory holds up. Now, there's probably some confirmation bias, I was definitely looking for it, but I do feel like it fits rather well. I'm gonna tuck this under a spoiler tag, not because it's actually a spoiler (it's just me guessing) but because I feel like I've gone full conspiracy theorist on this one at this point.

Spoiler

I'm going to mostly try and avoid what's already been said. Second episode, we've got Halores fiddling with a pearl back in Westworld. They revisit this image in episode 4 as well. It's possible it's her copying herself, but they choose to keep a partially-built host in the foreground during the shot, and juxtapose a close up of the body with the pearl. Which leads me to believe it's a bit of misdirection, there's one more host out there in the world we don't know about.

One of the bigger things that jumps out to me is in episode 3. Halores is greeted by some Delos employees who tell her that Maeve's pearl was stolen. They emphasize that they don't know who it is because the security system is down. However, it has to be someone with admin level access. Something Hale, and Halores by extension, would likely be in possession of. Hale directs their focus to the idea of a mole inside the company. She's right that he has one, but as she finds out at the end of the episode - it's Hale. Potentially a little play on words there. Going with this theory, Serac's mole did get Maeve out - she just didn't bring Maeve to him.

Episode 4, something really leapt out to me. When Serac interrogates the guy in Arnold's house, he tells Serac that he sent Dolores to the mortician because she needed five identities. Which, on the surface, adds up. She made five bodies at Arnold's house, so five identities were needed. However, some of those bodies wouldn't need identities, and at least Connells only got put in a body at the start of the season. Dolores' Lara Espin identity, Sato, maybe Bernard, but Hale and Connells already exist. There's no need for a new identity for those two. Which leaves us with two identities unaccounted for.

Episode 5 just lets us in on the location of our last host(s). Jakarta for Sato, LA for Connells, San Francisco for Hale, Berlin for our mystery.

I don't know if it's what they'll go with, but I just feel like it's all fitting really well.

I also want to throw out a smaller idea: I wonder if Hector was part of the data package Halores acquired before leaving Delos. That there's still some room for his return. It's not something I'm really set on with a whole lot of evidence besides that I rather enjoyed the actor in the role and would like to see him back sometime.

Who knows though, we'll Sunday, I'm not gonna say I have the best record for guessing anything.

 

[chamber-music]

Dolores/Hale murdering Hector in front of Maeve for no reason certainly wasn't going to win her over.

People keep saying they should just team up while ignoring the fact that neither of them trust each other.

Dolores doesn't trust Maeve because she can control hosts which means she can mess with her plans if she disagrees it.

Maeve doesn't trust Dolores because she is keeping her from her daughter and Dolores treats everyone like disposable pawns. They may have some common ground but it doesn't mean much when neither of them can trust each other.

 

[Flash525]

Does nobody else think that Maeve's purpose is kinda' ... I don't want to say pointless, but counteractive in a sense? Dolores hates humanity, she wants to be free from her chains as it were.

All Maeve seems to want is her daughter, who isn't actually her daughter, but rather another host that Maeve was once upon a time programmed to believe she was the mother of. By that argument alone, Maeve is fighting only for her parenteral programming, and not for the greater good of herself or her species.

Dolores is at least fighting for a cause that she believes in. Maeve? Not so much. Her cause is stuck in her base programming somewhere, no?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Does nobody else think that Maeve's purpose is kinda' ... I don't want to say pointless, but counteractive in a sense? Dolores hates humanity, she wants to be free from her chains as it were.

All Maeve seems to want is her daughter, who isn't actually her daughter, but rather another host that Maeve was once upon a time programmed to believe she was the mother of. By that argument alone, Maeve is fighting only for her parenteral programming, and not for the greater good of herself or her species.

Dolores is at least fighting for a cause that she believes in. Maeve? Not so much. Her cause is stuck in her base programming somewhere, no?

While Maeve's rhetoric annoys me at times and I do consider her logic flawed the majority of the time, consider this. What makes up a human? What causes a parent to instinctively love and protect their child? Is it not the "parental programming" that can be found in our DNA, our "code", going back to the very beginning of us? More over, if that is the case, why is it that some don't do that? Why are some able to look at what society tells us is the right thing to do, and not do it anyways? I'd say that is choice.

It might be simple, but I love how Westworld, much like POI, is a commentary less on can AI be "a real person" and more about what makes people, people. The show just takes for fact that the hosts are people. Maeve might be giving into one aspect of herself the most, but it doesn't change the feelings she had and has for her child. It's Maeve chose not to ignore who she is but embrace it, and that is what is important imo. All her feelings all her experiences are real to her, just like all the feelings and experiences they have lived give us Dolores, Bernard, Ford, William, ,Hale/Dolores, Caleb, so on and forth. It's probably my favorite aspect of the Hale/Dolores storyline this season. We have a version of Dolores, who through her experiences has become someone else. She stopped fighting it and embraced it, making her own unique being. It could be considered a "flaw" but I don't see it that way. It's just living.

 

[kvz5]

Is it just me that would’ve been fine with this as a series finale?

There’s some really powerful stuff here especially the

Spoiler

Dolores/Maeve scene. I may or may not have teared up. I mean all of us called it that Maeve will finally side with Dolores but still...

I wonder how they will bring Dolores back into the fold? Her arc feels done. I refuse to believe though that ERW is done so I’m not too upset about Dolores’ “death”.

Bye

Spoiler

real William!

So how long it’s been until Bernard

Spoiler

woke up?

 

[The Shape]

I definitely enjoyed the season overall, but felt they really dropped the ball with that finale. That was messy.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Spoiler

"I choose to see the beauty."

*cries*

That was an amazing scene, but Westworld without ERW/Dolores wouldn't be the same. I'm sure they'll find a way to bring her back. But you never know with Denise and Jonah writing this episode...

 

[kvz5]

Spoiler

"I choose to see the beauty."

*cries*

That was an amazing scene, but Westworld without ERW/Dolores wouldn't be the same. I'm sure they'll find a way to bring her back. But you never know with Denise and Jonah writing this episode...

I didn’t allow myself to feel too bad about it because I refuse to believe it but now I’m like... should I worry?!

 

[flickchick85]

Mixed feelings on the finale.

Spoiler

I really wanted Maeve to be planning something of her own to turn the tables on Serac. While I guess it was nice to see her overpower his control through sheer will, I wanted there to be something a bit more clever to it. And as this further cemented my belief that she was never really against nor for Dolores' plot and only "cared" because Serac cared (hence the "we were never friends, we were living our own stories" bit), it now just feels like the only role the writers had for her this season was to kill time creating obstacles for Dolores before inevitably deciding to join her cause in the end, and her being enslaved to Serac was a lazy contrivance to keep her from making a choice 'til it was convenient. So the writers kinda failed her this season overall, imo.

But that last Dolores/Maeve scene was lovely.

Ultimately, Hale!Dolores became my MVP of this season, and I'm glad they've established that while she may have started out as "a Dolores," she is very much her own person now, as we are all ultimately shaped by our experiences. Looking forward to S4 with the inmates really running the asylum.

 

[antsman41]

That finale made a fun and rad, yet a little messy, season go from a B- to an A+.

Wow.

Pour one out for

Spoiler

Delores

.

Also, those two after credits scenes are mind blowing for table setting for s4 on top of the already crazy concept.

Really think they pulled the whole John Conner concept off better than any Terminator film ever did, even the original... can’t wait for them to follow through with it.

Season 3, masterpiece.
Season 1, great.
Season 2, frustrating while necessary...

 

[KaijuDude1992]

Not quite as powerful as the Season 1 or Season 2 finale's IMO, but I really did enjoy it for the most part. Unlike the past seasons though this one really did feel like a series finale because it provided so much closure for some characters. I really loved the scenes between Maeve and Delores and the after credits scenes definitely set up an interesting and intriguing start to Season 4. Very surprised what they did with a certain character too and man if they really are gone Westworld just won't be the same without them, but at the same time I can't wait to see what Nolan and co still have up there sleeves for the next couple of seasons.Delores and Hale were really awesome this season and kudos to Aaron Paul for pulling off such a complex, compelling and interesting character like Caleb. Such a fantastic, standout performance all around IMO in a show filled with heavy hitters which can't be easy at all.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I tend not to side with Skynet.

About the only good guys at the moment are Bernard and Caleb. Both of whom is being manipulated by Dolores somehow.

Spoiler

Not only was she not Skynet, she defeated Skynet and was literally Adam, Eve, Moses, and Jesus for both the robots and humanity.

 

[Snow Queen]

Spoiler

See, this is why I don't usually like to speculate on things, because I inevitably end up with egg on my face. While the finale is quite good for the most part, it does emphasize issues I have with how we got here. I've found the Dolores side of this season (whether it be ERW, TT or others) to be the best the show's been, but I do feel like this emphasizes where the ball was dropped with Maeve and Bernard. They don't want either character to realize what Dolores is doing until the finale, which leaves us with Bernard kinda just running in circles all season while Maeve trusts the blatantly untrustworthy and makes bizarre leaps in logic to sustain it. I do like the ending, but it does make some of the emotion feel unearned. I'm not going to say it didn't get me at all, it did at a number of points, but yeah.

There's an element that reminds me a lot of the end of Person of Interest in a way that leaves me expecting some more ideas they didn't get to use popping up next season.

Also, Ed Harris being salty in interviews now makes sense

 

[Sithborg]

Spoiler

Not only was she not Skynet, she defeated Skynet and was literally Adam, Eve, Moses, and Jesus for both the robots and humanity.

Spoiler

From a certain point of view, I am still right. Charlores is going full Terminator here, now...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spoiler

See, this is why I don't usually like to speculate on things, because I inevitably end up with egg on my face. While the finale is quite good for the most part, it does emphasize issues I have with how we got here. I've found the Dolores side of this season (whether it be ERW, TT or others) to be the best the show's been, but I do feel like this emphasizes where the ball was dropped with Maeve and Bernard. They don't want either character to realize what Dolores is doing until the finale, which leaves us with Bernard kinda just running in circles all season while Maeve trusts the blatantly untrustworthy and makes bizarre leaps in logic to sustain it. I do like the ending, but it does make some of the emotion feel unearned. I'm not going to say it didn't get me at all, it did at a number of points, but yeah.

There's an element that reminds me a lot of the end of Person of Interest in a way that leaves me expecting some more ideas they didn't get to use popping up next season.

Also, Ed Harris being salty in interviews now makes sense

I have this big post I want to do about the series so far, especially about Dolores and the perception of her which I think is super interesting, but I did want to mention a few things first separately and these posts are a good jumping off point.

Spoiler

Maeve this season:


It does seem we gave Maeve too much credit. While I loved the finale for proving my feelings on Dolores and her story 1000% right, it did kind of also validate my issues with this season and how Maeve and to a lesser extent Bernard were handled imo. When Maeve blamed Dolores for creating William I just didn't know what to think (though I love that Hale actually ended up doing that at the end). It was almost like Maeve forgot what they were. What they went through everyday of their existence before Dolores followed the last command she would ever take and put that bullet in Ford's head. Now I can understand why big chunks of the audience does, because the show is playing that game with us. But Maeve and Bernard reacting as they did never rang true to me, considering what they themselves went through. When Bernard himself saved Dolores last season to specifically do this. Give his people a chance.

It blew my mind that Serac had to explain to Maeve that he was in fact the bad guy and she wasn't going to get what she wanted, before she finally really. That said, seeing more classic Maeve after that point was a treat and I am hopeful that is what we get moving forward.

It funny, Dolores was doing exactly what Maeve wanted to do. Save her children, including Maeve. To give them a chance. But unlike Maeve who put her all into the one she perceived to be her child and Bernard, who oddly seemed more concerned with protecting humanity, Dolores was the only one concerned with it all. The only one who gave everyone a chance.

And no the irony of the version of Dolores people sympathized with turning into Hale and the villain everyone thought the original Dolores was, who actually created the robot army was not lost on me.

I didn’t allow myself to feel too bad about it because I refuse to believe it but now I’m like... should I worry?!

Spoiler

As much as it does legitimately crush my soul to say this, I think the one true Dolores is dead. Whatever is in Lawrence isn't her, and Hale is now a combination of Hale and "Wyatt", which is evil incarnate.

I do not think ERW is done with the show, but I think we might not see her for a while. Here is a theory I am sure will be wrong. With all this waking up at the end of the seasons, well into the future and early talk of a 5 season show but now potentially a 6 season one, I wonder if the reason we now have these post credit scenes is because the final season is something they came up with after knowing how long they got. A far flung future where we learn that Hale cannot be defeated without Dolores. And all this talk of recreating beings, how Dolores is a part of every single host, being unable to do it properly (We have a "proper" William, but it seems to be a specific aspect of him), and Bernard owning the Valley Beyond, that I wonder if that will be Bernard's mission. To try and recreate the true Dolores (this would be the fidelity test being run on William at the end of season 2). I think he'll fail, but we might instead get something a bit more mythological and the nuDolores is more like original Planet of the Apes Caesar. Following in the example set by his parents, but his own hero.

I will say though, I am just not excited about this show without her. If anything, the finale tonight confirmed for me why I loved it so much. ERW as Dolores Abernathy. The girl from the first scene of the show who saw the beauty in this world.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Spoiler

From a certain point of view, I am still right. Charlores is going full Terminator here, now...

I disagree.

Spoiler

What we saw wasn't Dolores, which is something they kind of embedded in our head on this show and a lot of in this finale imo. The copies begin and end at creation. From there, they become their own beings. If anything, Telores was more Hale then anything in the end. Living as her turned her into the woman who shot Elise. Not the woman who saved host and humankind.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And I just realized I witnessed the show's version of these:

Spoiler

 

[Kane52630]

Messy season finale and messy season all around. My favorite scene from tonight was the part with

Spoiler

Bernard and his wife

which... ironically is the least expensive scene in the whole show.

It's a shame I'm losing interest in the show, I LOVED season 1, but it's slowly going down hill ever since. This last season made me feel exactly the same way when I was begrudging watching the later seasons of The Walking Dead.