Bat Peeves: What's the WORST thing about movie Batmen ?

[Cain]

There was a lot of post-production audio meddling with his voice in TDK (not sure about Rises). In that film at least it wasn't entirely his fault, regardless if his choice worked for you overall.

I could see how they had audio issues in post. For the longest time I did not realize he said HOCKEY PADS and not HOCKEY PANTS.

 

[Brother Jack]

The way they handled Affleck's voice in BvS/JL should be the way they handle his voice moving forward as Batman ie a voice changer/microphone.

I liked the idea behind it, but Affleck sounded way too robotic for me. The best way to do that is how the Telltale Batman game did it; have the modulator just lower his voice. It gives him this authoritative vibe, and makes it sound closer to Kevin Conroy's natural speaking voice.

 

[Patchwork Man]

Everyone knows Schumacher and Clooney are the worst things to ever happen to Batman. Don't pretend otherwise.

"Affleck's body count"? "West's weird delivery"? Puhleez.

 

[Cain]

*remembers Clooney's uncontrollable head bobs in and out of the cowl*

*shudders*

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'd have to say the entire concept of West's Batman. It was so far off the Kane & Finger concept that I couldn't (and still can't) enjoy anything about it. Outside of his intellect, there's nothing about that version that says Batman or Bruce Wayne.

I've always viewed Clooney's version as an extension of the '66 Batman concept. Batman can have a few dry wit remarks, but he should never be goofy. Save the dancing, ice skating, and other screwball antics for characters with personalities that lend themselves to those kinds of moments.

 

[Dark Raven]

West's Batman was still the most intelligent Batman. I think there was even a poll for this somewhere.

 

[The Guard]

I'd have to say the entire concept of West's Batman. It was so far off the Kane & Finger concept that I couldn't (and still can't) enjoy anything about it. Outside of his intellect, there's nothing about that version that says Batman or Bruce Wayne.

I've always viewed Clooney's version as an extension of the '66 Batman concept. Batman can have a few dry wit remarks, but he should never be goofy. Save the dancing, ice skating, and other screwball antics for characters with personalities that lend themselves to those kinds of moments.

It's really not that far off.

It's actually, in many respects, a spot on adaption of the mid forties comics, other than tonally. It even adapts some of those storylines.

The truth is that the Batman show was almost too slavish an adaption for comfort. It was definitely poking fun at the superhero concept, and at some of the absurdities of Batman and his mythology, but in many respects, that show mirrored the comics of a few decades prior almost perfectly.

For some reason that makes fans uncomfortable, but it's part of the character's history, and not without it's good qualities.

 

[Awest66]

-Bale was great in BB, and he was an all around great Bruce Wayne in the trilogy, but his Batman in TDK and TDKR are just bad. I mean, downright terrible. His voice, his slow ass fighting, his whining about Rachel, his moaning about life, him needing CONSTANT guidance by Alfred, Rachel, Lucius, or his nonstop virtue signaling about his "code", even though he keeps killing people. Ugh. If you're gonna be killing people, shut up about your goddamn code

Can't for the life of me remember any actual instance of him actually "whining" or "moaning" about anything really and honestly and he received basically the same amount of guidance that every version of Batman received (That's basically what Alfred's there for in every version). I also don't remember him talking about his code or even intentionally killing anyone.

 

[Travesty]

I would recommend actually watching the movies next time.

 

[Awest66]

I would recommend actually watching the movies next time.

You clearly have not. Helps to name some actual instances of what you've put down (Bruce whining/moaning)

 

[Batmannerism]

Can't for the life of me remember any actual instance of him actually "whining" or "moaning" about anything really and honestly and he received basically the same amount of guidance that every version of Batman received (That's basically what Alfred's there for in every version). I also don't remember him talking about his code or even intentionally killing anyone.

As far as Batman's so-called "no killing code" goes I think people see it as a very black and white line....but if you look at how Batman actually behaves it's much more a "shades of grey" code.

I recall him saying " I'm no executioner." in BB. Interesting, because he then blows up the ninja school, which certainly killed some of the ninjas.

I guess if you take him literally, he didn't execute them - I.e. he doesn't kill people in cold blood or with direct intention - but his actions lead to their deaths, which he could probably foresee ( although he was under a bit of pressure at the time).

The one person he does absolutely kill in TDK is Harvey Dent - even though his real intention is to save Gordon's boy, he almost certainly knows Dent won't survive the fall. So that's indirect intention, which is sufficient for a murder charge - but self defence ( as defence of another) would almost certainly apply.

In TDK he also talks about his "one rule" which we assume is the " no killing rule" - which is what makes the Joker's reply "killing is making a choice" so brilliant.

Now here's a long time Bat Peeve of mine
which relates to the asinine "No more dead cops comment". It goes like this:

The Joker wants Batman to accept responsibility for Rachel's death, but of course this is the false logic upon which a big part of Batman and the Joker's relationship is based - that Batman is responsible for the people Joker kills - in this case Rachel.
Before we all wring our hands and look disappointingly at Batman, let's just take a second to think about that premise - because it is completely wrong. The person responsible for the deaths the Joker causes is....the Joker. It's not even that Batman fails to prevent them, it's that he's put in the position of having to try to save them by the Joker - who's crazy.
If the ferries had actually exploded, that would have been on the Joker. Sure, Batman would have been haunted by the failure, but he's like that - it's still not his fault.
The "No more dead cops!" comment, IMO is Nolan taking a poke at how reactionary and stupid the public sometimes are in their response to crime and terrorism. It sounds stupid in the film because it's meant to.

Anyway, back to my original point Nolan Batman's code isn't really "no killing" it's more like:

"I won't intentionally take a life, unless I have to in order to immediately save another life ( including my own), and
I will allow my enemies to die if they are facing potentially lethal circumstances ( even if I creates those circumstances)and I can't save them or don't want to."

Well something like that.

In comparison Keaton's Batman blows up Axis chemicals with Joker's goons inside - presumably killing all of them, and he's in no personal danger. Later he strafes the parade and guns down a bunch of goons - although they are firing guns over the crowd.

Food for thought eh !

 

[Luigi]

Don't have any major issues with Keaton, West and Bale. Clooney's take was goofy as hell but the constant look of quiet desperation on his face was comedy gold.

Kilmer was bland but at least he wasn't sleepwalking through the entire film like Affleck in JL.

 

[Awest66]

Food for thought eh !

I don't have a problem with Batman causing deaths unintentionally in the heat of the moment while trying to rescue innocent people. It's when he's flat-out murdering people I don't care for.

 

[Batmannerism]

l

I don't have a problem with Batman causing deaths unintewntionally in the heat of the moment while trying to rescue innocent people. It's when he's flat-out murdering people I don't care for.

Same. I remember seeing Batman 1989 back in the day and thinking ( when Batman opens fire on the goons at the parade)...."Hmmmm, Batman doesn't usually kill people like that!"

When I saw B v S I couldn't help think how they got the look of Miller's Batman ( from DKR) right but got everything else about him wrong - because he's not a killer, yes he'll cripple and maim criminals but he won't kill them unless absolutely necessary.

Right now I'm watching TDK. Man, Ledgers acting in that interrogation scene was just amazing - as good as Phoenix is, he'll have to do something special to top it. The only thing I liked about Leto's Joker was that he tried to do something different from Ledger rather than imitate his performance.

Man, Aaron Eckhart doesn't get enough love for his portrayal of Harvey Dent - that final showdown is still great ( Zimmer's music really sets the mood too).


On a related note TDK Batman's fight moves are very stiff and slow. The big swinging hammer fists, backhands and haymaker punches arent too impressive - BB had better choreography, don't know what went wrong there.

While I'm not a fan of Batfleck Snyder did capture Batman's brutal fighting style. I know Nolan wanted to strip back the choreography to a minimum, but he stripped it back a little too much in TDK and goes even further down to mere brawling for TDKR.

Good use of gadgets in the Pruitt building rescue though - what makes that sequence so awesome is that Batman saves the day by using his brains and his toys with no loss of life and with Nolan's use of practical effects it's believable. despite the mediocre fist fighting it's still the quintessential Batman action sequence and captures everything that Batman is about. Nolan truly understood the character.


I felt sorry for the Chechen 's dogs though, not their fault their owners were a criminal scumbag and a psychopath.

The only bit of that which bugs me is the bit where Bats throws Joker off the building and then snags him and hauls him back up. Nolan spends an entire film creating a realistic feel ( with a couple of exceptions like the fall from Bruce's penthouse ) and then totally abandons the laws of physics - it's a bit jarring really. There had to be a better way of doing that.

Still, best ending montage and monologue EVER in TDK!

I watched BR the other night. I struggle with the amount of love that Keaton gets as Batman. He was good and did a decent Bat voice, but it really struck me how physically unimposing he is. He's great in the close ups but when you see him side by side with other actors.....

 

[Babillygunn]

It's really not that far off.

It's actually, in many respects, a spot on adaption of the mid forties comics, other than tonally. It even adapts some of those storylines.

The truth is that the Batman show was almost too slavish an adaption for comfort. It was definitely poking fun at the superhero concept, and at some of the absurdities of Batman and his mythology, but in many respects, that show mirrored the comics of a few decades prior almost perfectly.

For some reason that makes fans uncomfortable, but it's part of the character's history, and not without it's good qualities.

Great comments all around. I agree with other posters that West’s Batman may be the best detective version we have seen on film. His Bruce is also very 1960s suave, which is why West was offered the James Bond role for OHMSS, but turned it down.

 

[Awest66]

While I'm not a fan of Batfleck Snyder did capture Batman's brutal fighting style. I know Nolan wanted to strip back the choreography to a minimum, but he stripped it back a little too much in TDK and goes even further down to mere brawling for TDKR.

I honestly prefer the Finale of TDK to the warehouse fight scene. It might not have the flashy, Arkham Games-esque choreography but it's a much better showcase of how the Batman I know and love would act in a situation.

Honestly, Batman's always been kind of a brawler, even in BVS so it didn't see much of adiiference between fighting styles in TDK or TDKR.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It's really not that far off.

It's actually, in many respects, a spot on adaption of the mid forties comics, other than tonally. It even adapts some of those storylines.

The truth is that the Batman show was almost too slavish an adaption for comfort. It was definitely poking fun at the superhero concept, and at some of the absurdities of Batman and his mythology, but in many respects, that show mirrored the comics of a few decades prior almost perfectly.

For some reason that makes fans uncomfortable, but it's part of the character's history, and not without it's good qualities.

That's why I mentioned the original concept, which was a crime drama with supernatural elements. Unfortunately, Finger & Kane's ideas weren't in step with the attitudes of the general public at the time. That's why we got a gradual softening in tone with characters like Robin and a complete infantilization of comics with the Comics Code. Yes, there have been plenty of light Batman comic stories, but I can't remember a singe one that did him justice. He's a character born of outrage and aggression. When's he's moved too far from that, he becomes a flat, lifeless character.

I'm also part of the camp that believes that visuals can be just as important to storytelling as dialogue and narrative. Batman is supposed to be a man who honed his body into a living weapon, but West hardly looked like an elite athlete in his cheap Halloween gear, nor did he move like one. For that matter, none of the Batmen prior to Bale looked like or moved like fighters. That makes doing anything believable or memorable nearly impossible.

 

[Steyin]

The worst part of any Batman film is the love interest. Get rid of that and just focus on Batman.

 

[Awest66]

The worst part of any Batman film is the love interest. Get rid of that and just focus on Batman.

There's a better chance of Obi-Wan Kenobi joining the Sith than a Batman movie (or a superhero movie in general really) not featuring a love interest.

 

[2kt09]

There's a better chance of Obi-Wan Kenobi joining the Sith than a Batman movie (or a superhero movie in general really) not featuring a love interest.

Batfleck has no love interest

 

[Awest66]

Batfleck has no love interest

I have every confidence he'd get one once he"d get his own solo movie and Justice League was really leaning into Batman and Wonder Woman as a couple.

 

[Babillygunn]

The worst part of any Batman film is the love interest. Get rid of that and just focus on Batman.

Mask of the Phantasm says otherwise

 

[Herofan]

Now here's a long time Bat Peeve of mine
which relates to the asinine "No more dead cops comment". It goes like this:

The Joker wants Batman to accept responsibility for Rachel's death, but of course this is the false logic upon which a big part of Batman and the Joker's relationship is based - that Batman is responsible for the people Joker kills - in this case Rachel.
Before we all wring our hands and look disappointingly at Batman, let's just take a second to think about that premise - because it is completely wrong. The person responsible for the deaths the Joker causes is....the Joker. It's not even that Batman fails to prevent them, it's that he's put in the position of having to try to save them by the Joker - who's crazy.
If the ferries had actually exploded, that would have been on the Joker. Sure, Batman would have been haunted by the failure, but he's like that - it's still not his fault.
The "No more dead cops!" comment, IMO is Nolan taking a poke at how reactionary and stupid the public sometimes are in their response to crime and terrorism. It sounds stupid in the film because it's meant to.

A lot of people can, to different degrees, contribute to a single event and thus have some responsibility for it even if one person has the primary responsibility for it. If a different decision can/could have led another person to act differently the person who directly acts is most responsible but the other was also involved to albeit to a different and less direct extent (at least, yes, the public will tend to feel that way).

While the cops did seem to be petty the film also seemed to maybe side with them, that preventing killings and disorder was the highest goal and Batman should retire to get the Joker to stop or at least it was really good that Harvey claimed the mantle to try to get him to do so.

 

[Batmannerism]

A lot of people can, to different degrees, contribute to a single event and thus have some responsibility for it even if one person has the primary responsibility for it. If a different decision can/could have led another person to act differently the person who directly acts is most responsible but the other was also involved to albeit to a different and less direct extent (at least, yes, the public will tend to feel that way).

While the cops did seem to be petty the film also seemed to maybe side with them, that preventing killings and disorder was the highest goal and Batman should retire to get the Joker to stop or at least it was really good that Harvey claimed the mantle to try to get him to do so.

Ooooooh if you want to get into a discussion of causation in fact and proximate vs distal causation in a Batman film that's fine, I'll have a go, but ultimately where will it end ?

Nolan deliberately explored the theme of escalation and asked the question whether Batman actually makes things worse in TDK, but he lets us know very clearly what he thinks in Gordon's final monologue.

I put to you that arguments about Batman being the distal cause of the Joker's crimes are moot - particularly in the context of TDK.

In the comics this question has been explored several times e.g. the Going Sane story.

With regards to the point that many people contribute to an event besides the person who is the immediate actor.....that's really saying that Batman's existence motivates the Joker to commit atrocities.

I put to you that this is a bit like saying the existence of African Americans motivates the KKK to commit hate crimes. Are African Americans then responsible for those crimes, even a little bit.......It's so obvious I don't even have to say "Of course not, that's insane!" ( but I will anyway).

The Joker's reasoning works for him.....because he is psychotic, not because it is valid reasoning in any way shape or form.

This is where we end up when we go down this path....couldnt we just be happy with complaining about bat suits with nipples ?

 

[metaphysician]

Ooooooh if you want to get into a discussion of causation in fact and proximate vs distal causation in a Batman film that's fine, I'll have a go, but ultimately where will it end ?

Nolan deliberately explored the theme of escalation and asked the question whether Batman actually makes things worse in TDK, but he lets us know very clearly what he thinks in Gordon's final monologue.

I put to you that arguments about Batman being the distal cause of the Joker's crimes are moot - particularly in the context of TDK.

In the comics this question has been explored several times e.g. the Going Sane story.

With regards to the point that many people contribute to an event besides the person who is the immediate actor.....that's really saying that Batman's existence motivates the Joker to commit atrocities.

I put to you that this is a bit like saying the existence of African Americans motivates the KKK to commit hate crimes. Are African Americans then responsible for those crimes, even a little bit.......It's so obvious I don't even have to say "Of course not, that's insane!" ( but I will anyway).

The Joker's reasoning works for him.....because he is psychotic, not because it is valid reasoning in any way shape or form.

This is where we end up when we go down this path....couldnt we just be happy with complaining about bat suits with nipples ?

Amusingly, this entire flawed line of thinking ties in with the Joker's own ideological thesis: that "people" are fine with terrible things happening, as long as its all part of "the plan". Why blame Batman for crime? Because blaming the hero gives the illusion of control, and people would rather have the illusion of control than actual safety. A sheepdog may keep the wolves away, but it requires admitting there are wolves in the first place.

Hence the uncomfortable stoic moral of TDK: that a hero's most important task is to endure. Even if other people do terrible things to try and coerce you. Even if everyone hates you for doing the right thing.