Batman: Arkham Knight - Part 4

[spiderman2]

Maybe because his fear is his own worst enemy, and he is the true Arkham Knight, because he's partially responsible for the madness that befell Gotham.

I personally would like if the Arkham Knight is a figment of his imagination. It would make sense with Scarecrow as the villain of the game. But I think there might have already been spoilers that that's not the case. But I'm not sure.

I would hate hate if it was just his imagination that would be so so stupid.

 

[Nathan]

No worse than some of the other stuff that already happened in the series.

 

[TX85]

I much rather Ra's or someone having made a clone of Bruce and his own assassin batman(which is what I believe will happen)than Bruce going crazy like that.

 

[spiderman2]

No worse than some of the other stuff that already happened in the series.

Like what? This would be way way worse then any thing yet.

 

[spiderman2]

I much rather Ra's or someone having made a clone of Bruce and his own assassin batman(which is what I believe will happen)than Bruce going crazy like that.

I just hope it really is someone who knows batman not just a clone or imagination. Both of those ideas are just bad and would really dissapont me.

 

[Nathan]

Like what? This would be way way worse then any thing yet.

I rate a giant super Joker and Batman being a heartbroken little Princess after Joker's death as worse offenses, than him fighting a nightmare mirror of himself, because he might be poisoned by Scarecrow's fear toxin.

 

[Benstamania]

I rate a giant super Joker and Batman being a heartbroken little Princess after Joker's death as worse offenses, than him fighting a nightmare mirror of himself, because he might be poisoned by Scarecrow's fear toxin.

Agreed 100%

 

[The Joker]

I rate a giant super Joker and Batman being a heartbroken little Princess after Joker's death as worse offenses, than him fighting a nightmare mirror of himself, because he might be poisoned by Scarecrow's fear toxin.

I would also add Hugo Strange being nothing but a Ra's puppet, and Bane being a tool who gets defeated by an elevator gate worse, too.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I would also add Hugo Strange being nothing but a Ra's puppet, and Bane being a tool who gets defeated by an elevator gate worse, too.

Ra's man behind the man twist was probably the single worst example of that twist I think I have ever seen or experienced, and that is a twist that is used a lot.

It's basic storytelling rules that you don't have massive twist last all of 30 seconds before tossing it into irrelevancy, all for it to have no impact whatsoever on the text. Nothing really changes if you take out the reveal. Strange is simply incapacitated or killed some other way. That's it. No real change at all. It's basically "I'm the real villain of the piec-oh I'm dead nvm'. The purpose of the man behind the man twist is to extend the narrative, shock the audience/reader, and allow for greater personal or dramatic stakes. Ra's reveal does none of these things. It was not particularly shocking, it served no purpose other than to neuter a villain who had already been treated poorly by the narrative, it did not raise the stakes or make them more personal, and in the end just comes across as unintentionally hilarious. Ra's steps out the shadows to reveal himself only to die seconds after. That is...very unimpressive Ra's.

It still boggles my mind looking back on it. I have no idea how any self-respecting writer or editor didn't look at that piece in the game script and ask "Hey, don't you think this serves no purpose whatsoever except to take two awesome villains and turn them into jokes?"

 

[TX85]

I don't see how Batman was a heartbroken princess after Joker died,Sad and respectful towards Joker yet but not that extreme.

 

[Nathan]

He's such a wreck that his allies are wondering if he's ok, and gets taken down by fricking Harley. And he carried Joker out of Arkham City, like he just lost a dear friend. One of the worst psychopaths on the face of the planet just died, and Batman is sad and respectful towards him? What the ****?

 

[The Joker]

Ra's man behind the man twist was probably the single worst example of that twist I think I have ever seen or experienced, and that is a twist that is used a lot.

It's basic storytelling rules that you don't have massive twist last all of 30 seconds before tossing it into irrelevancy, all for it to have no impact whatsoever on the text. Nothing really changes if you take out the reveal. Strange is simply incapacitated or killed some other way. That's it. No real change at all. It's basically "I'm the real villain of the piec-oh I'm dead nvm'. The purpose of the man behind the man twist is to extend the narrative, shock the audience/reader, and allow for greater personal or dramatic stakes. Ra's reveal does none of these things. It was not particularly shocking, it served no purpose other than to neuter a villain who had already been treated poorly by the narrative, it did not raise the stakes or make them more personal, and in the end just comes across as unintentionally hilarious. Ra's steps out the shadows to reveal himself only to die seconds after. That is...very unimpressive Ra's.

It still boggles my mind looking back on it. I have no idea how any self-respecting writer or editor didn't look at that piece in the game script and ask "Hey, don't you think this serves no purpose whatsoever except to take two awesome villains and turn them into jokes?"

I don't see how Batman was a heartbroken princess after Joker died,Sad and respectful towards Joker yet but not that extreme.

On what planet would Batman have any sadness or respect for the Joker? I've read comics where Batman wishes he was dead. That he wants nothing more.

Didn't you think that was ridiculously out of character in AC the way he carried Joker out, but left Talia's body behind? They were so blatantly trying to recreate this scene:

Except they left out the most important part:

Batman wasn't leaving the body of someone he cares about behind in favor of carrying the Joker's out, and he didn't tenderly place Joker on the hood of a car. He threw him in a dumpster.

 

[Nathan]

Now that's more like it.

 

[hafizbat]

Ra's man behind the man twist was probably the single worst example of that twist I think I have ever seen or experienced, and that is a twist that is used a lot.

It's basic storytelling rules that you don't have massive twist last all of 30 seconds before tossing it into irrelevancy, all for it to have no impact whatsoever on the text. Nothing really changes if you take out the reveal. Strange is simply incapacitated or killed some other way. That's it. No real change at all. It's basically "I'm the real villain of the piec-oh I'm dead nvm'. The purpose of the man behind the man twist is to extend the narrative, shock the audience/reader, and allow for greater personal or dramatic stakes. Ra's reveal does none of these things. It was not particularly shocking, it served no purpose other than to neuter a villain who had already been treated poorly by the narrative, it did not raise the stakes or make them more personal, and in the end just comes across as unintentionally hilarious. Ra's steps out the shadows to reveal himself only to die seconds after. That is...very unimpressive Ra's.

It still boggles my mind looking back on it. I have no idea how any self-respecting writer or editor didn't look at that piece in the game script and ask "Hey, don't you think this serves no purpose whatsoever except to take two awesome villains and turn them into jokes?"

I expected more from Paul Dini, to be honest. I didn't mind the terminal illness sideplot, and the Clayface twist was good, but the Hugo/Ra's stuff was just terrible.

On what planet would Batman have any sadness or respect for the Joker? I've read comics where Batman wishes he was dead. That he wants nothing more.

Didn't you think that was ridiculously out of character in AC the way he carried Joker out, but left Talia's body behind? They were so blatantly trying to recreate this scene:

Spoiler

Except they left out the most important part:

Spoiler

Batman wasn't leaving the body of someone he cares about behind in favor of carrying the Joker's out, and he didn't tenderly place Joker on the hood of a car. He threw him in a dumpster.

Great post. A response like this would be more appropriate.

[YT]gbxwnbbzO3o[/YT]

I get it, he should at least respect the enemy he has been fighting for years and who has given him a great many battles. But feeling sad? No way. Not after all the Joker's done.

 

[TX85]

Alright,fair enough and that's very true but I guess I just didn't see Batman in AC being a "heartbroken princess". I know what you all mean but that sentence just bugged me before thinking back at the ending

 

[Rodrigo90]

Sadness or hatred have nothing to do with the ending of AC.

That ending demonstrated, as its pointed out in Harley Quinn's Revenge and is supposedly a plot point in AK, is that Batman is feeling 'something' over the Joker's death.
They had a weird connection, that Batman only recognised after Joker died, and that was what Joker said himself throughout.

Batman didn't feel sad, but Joker's death affected him in a deep way. This was a man he's hated for so long, pushing him to his limits, by hurting people close him [Batman] and killing innocents...only for Batman to admit that he still would have saved him...
Batman was in total conflict in that scene...he didn't want to save Joker, but would've anyway, because that's the sort of man that he is.
He was in a mixture of emotions...To see his greatest sworn enemy perish and not gaining any satisfaction from it...

It was his desire to save this evil, that's what I think affected him. Batman was affected and carried this evil man's corpse through a parade of people watching him...He didn't know what to think, he didn't know what to feel or know what to do. So, is this a hark back to Alan Mooore's TKJ? That Batman never wanted Joker to die and was hopeful that he would see the error of his ways one day and would change for good?
Even though Joker said that it was too late for him, and in most criminal minds that's the case...they can't forgive themselves and can't bring themselves to live normal, happy lives again for what they've done.

I don't know what it was, bit it demonstrated that Batman wanted to save his foe's life, he couldn't and it impacted him.

I thought it was a pretty adult approach
Strangely moving...

 

[spiderman2]

Sadness or hatred have nothing to do with the ending of AC.

That ending demonstrated, as its pointed out in Harley Quinn's Revenge and is supposedly a plot point in AK, is that Batman is feeling 'something' over the Joker's death.
They had a weird connection, that Batman only recognised after Joker died, and that was what Joker said himself throughout.

Batman didn't feel sad, but Joker's death affected him in a deep way. This was a man he's hated for so long, pushing him to his limits, by hurting people close him [Batman] and killing innocents...only for Batman to admit that he still would have saved him...
Batman was in total conflict in that scene...he didn't want to save Joker, but would've anyway, because that's the sort of man that he is.
He was in a mixture of emotions...To see his greatest sworn enemy perish and not gaining any satisfaction from it...

It was his desire to save this evil, that's what I think affected him. Batman was affected and carried this evil man's corpse through a parade of people watching him...He didn't know what to think, he didn't know what to feel or know what to do. So, is this a hark back to Alan Mooore's TKJ? That Batman never wanted Joker to die and was hopeful that he would see the error of his ways one day and would change for good?
Even though Joker said that it was too late for him, and in most criminal minds that's the case...they can't forgive themselves and can't bring themselves to live normal, happy lives again for what they've done.

I don't know what it was, bit it demonstrated that Batman wanted to save his foe's life, he couldn't and it impacted him.

I thought it was a pretty adult approach
Strangely moving...

I could not agree more with this. Saying he acted like a princess is one of the stupid things I have ever heard any one say. I could not put in to better worlds for this then what you said. The other things on hear I don't have a problem with. The only thing I really have a problem with is the joker being black mask in orgins and that is about it. If arkham knight is a clone or batman imagination the story in this game is going to be the worst of the 4 games and a big big dissapotment to me.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Sadness or hatred have nothing to do with the ending of AC.

That ending demonstrated, as its pointed out in Harley Quinn's Revenge and is supposedly a plot point in AK, is that Batman is feeling 'something' over the Joker's death.
They had a weird connection, that Batman only recognised after Joker died, and that was what Joker said himself throughout.

Batman didn't feel sad, but Joker's death affected him in a deep way. This was a man he's hated for so long, pushing him to his limits, by hurting people close him [Batman] and killing innocents...only for Batman to admit that he still would have saved him...
Batman was in total conflict in that scene...he didn't want to save Joker, but would've anyway, because that's the sort of man that he is.
He was in a mixture of emotions...To see his greatest sworn enemy perish and not gaining any satisfaction from it...

It was his desire to save this evil, that's what I think affected him. Batman was affected and carried this evil man's corpse through a parade of people watching him...He didn't know what to think, he didn't know what to feel or know what to do. So, is this a hark back to Alan Mooore's TKJ? That Batman never wanted Joker to die and was hopeful that he would see the error of his ways one day and would change for good?
Even though Joker said that it was too late for him, and in most criminal minds that's the case...they can't forgive themselves and can't bring themselves to live normal, happy lives again for what they've done.

I don't know what it was, bit it demonstrated that Batman wanted to save his foe's life, he couldn't and it impacted him.

I thought it was a pretty adult approach
Strangely moving...

Quoted for truth. Nice analysis.

 

[The Joker]

Now that's more like it.

I concur.

Great post. A response like this would be more appropriate.

[YT]gbxwnbbzO3o[/YT]

There you go. Another famous example of the contempt Batman would have over the Joker's demise.

Now onto this hilarious misinformed post;

Sadness or hatred have nothing to do with the ending of AC.

That ending demonstrated, as its pointed out in Harley Quinn's Revenge and is supposedly a plot point in AK, is that Batman is feeling 'something' over the Joker's death.
They had a weird connection, that Batman only recognised after Joker died, and that was what Joker said himself throughout.

Batman didn't feel sad, but Joker's death affected him in a deep way. This was a man he's hated for so long, pushing him to his limits, by hurting people close him [Batman] and killing innocents...only for Batman to admit that he still would have saved him...
Batman was in total conflict in that scene...he didn't want to save Joker, but would've anyway, because that's the sort of man that he is.
He was in a mixture of emotions...To see his greatest sworn enemy perish and not gaining any satisfaction from it...

It was his desire to save this evil, that's what I think affected him. Batman was affected and carried this evil man's corpse through a parade of people watching him...He didn't know what to think, he didn't know what to feel or know what to do. So, is this a hark back to Alan Mooore's TKJ? That Batman never wanted Joker to die and was hopeful that he would see the error of his ways one day and would change for good?
Even though Joker said that it was too late for him, and in most criminal minds that's the case...they can't forgive themselves and can't bring themselves to live normal, happy lives again for what they've done.

I don't know what it was, bit it demonstrated that Batman wanted to save his foe's life, he couldn't and it impacted him.

I thought it was a pretty adult approach
Strangely moving...

No offense but that is utter tripe. Batman said himself in this very game earlier that he was happy to die along with the Joker when the Joker poisoned him (first piece of out of character writing related to this plot. Batman would never go down without a fight, especially when there's an imminent threat. Was Hugo Strange and his protocol 10 scheme suddenly unimportant that Batman was willing to die?).

Then we're asked to believe that Batman favors carrying the body of most evil person he's ever encountered over a person he is supposed to have genuine feelings for just because he wanted to save this psychotic evil piece of filth whom he hates with a passion?

There is no throwback to The Killing Joke here either. In fact it couldn't have been more opposite of it. Right before Joker dies Batman says that every decision Joker makes ends with death and misery, and no matter how many times he stops him he'll just keep doing it again and again. This is not the speech of a man who sees hope that Joker might change his ways. Unlike in The Killing Joke where he offers to help rehabilitate Joker before it's too late.

It had absolutely nothing to do with Batman wanting to save Joker and not being able to. He was absolutely able to save Joker. Joker screwed himself by stabbing Batman with a knife and making him drop the cure vial. That was no failing on Batman's part. There was no conflict there. There's no implication of a conflict. You also contradict yourself. In one paragraph you say Batman has no desire to save Joker, but he would anyway because that's who he is. Then you say he is feeling conflicted because he wanted to save Joker.

Furthermore Harley Quinn's Revenge does not support this silly theory of yours. In that DLC Barbara says Bruce has not been the same since Joker and Talia died, implying that Joker's death affected him as much as Talia's did. Which makes sense in the context of the mournful way he carried Joker's body out at the end, clearly a strong visual implication that he was saddened by this death.

That ending was one of the worst pieces of character writing ever done for Batman and Joker, and totally misses the point of their relationship. Batman would save Joker sure, as he specified in the game, but to carry his dead body out and tenderly lay it down, all the while Talia's is left behind, is the antithesis of what Batman would do in a situation like that.

Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't know Batman. The likes of those scans I posted above, or Dark Knight Returns etc prove it.

But why should this surprise anyone? It's hardly the the first bit of bad character writing these games have done. AC is by far the worst written game of the trio of Arkham games. It's a brilliant game, but the story and characterizations are heavily flawed.

 

[Rodrigo90]

No offense but that is utter tripe. Batman said himself in this very game earlier that he was happy to die along with the Joker when the Joker poisoned him (first piece of out of character writing related to this plot. Batman would never go down without a fight, especially when there's an imminent threat. Was Hugo Strange and his protocol 10 scheme suddenly unimportant that Batman was willing to die?).

Ah, but remember...Batman forgot about Protocol 10 for a few minutes. He only found out that Joker threatened to poison people after he said that he was fine with the two of them dying.
Then thought protocol 10 was just that plot, it wasn't separate and Joker then says he doesn't know what Batman means by P10. So Batman was left with the plot of saving Joker and discovering what protocol 10 was about.

Then we're asked to believe that Batman favors carrying the body of most evil person he's ever encountered over a person he is supposed to have genuine feelings for just because he wanted to save this psychotic evil piece of filth whom he hates with a passion?

Death can change a man in many ways and Batman's response clinched it

There is no throwback to The Killing Joker here either. In fact it couldn't have been more opposite of it. Right before Joker dies Batman says that every decision Joker makes ends with death and misery, and no matter how many times he stops him he'll just keep doing it again and again. This is not the speech of a man who sees hope that Joker might change his ways. Unlike in The Killing Joke where he offers to help rehabilitate Joker before it's too late.

It had absolutely nothing to do with Batman wanting to save Joker and not being able to. He was absolutely able to save Joker. Joker screwed himself by stabbing Batman with a knife and making him drop the cure vial. That was no failing on Batman's part. There was no conflict there. There's no implication of a conflict. You also contradict yourself. In one paragraph you say Batman has no desire to save Joker, but he would anyway because that's who he is. Then you say he is feeling conflicted because he wanted to save Joker.

But you're ignoring what comes after that speech
"I still would have saved you..."
So what does this tell you? You can chalk it up to bad writing that doesn't match the comics, but I chalk it up to something powerful and unique.
This was Rocksteady's Batman. Bale was Nolan's. Keaton was Burton's. They're all different.

And I said, I don't know why Batman wanted to save him. Maybe it was just because of his moral code and he had no desire, or maybe he did want to and felt conflicted and disturbed over it. Who knows? Either way he was torn about what do for those few seconds...then told Joker, he would have saved him.

Furthermore Harley Quinn's Revenge does not support this silly theory of yours. In that DLC Barbara says Bruce has not been the same since Joker and Talia died, implying that Joker's death affected him as much as Talia's did. Which makes sense in the context of the mournful way he carried Joker's body out at the end, clearly a strong visual implication that he was saddened by this death

.
But wouldn't he have carried out Talia's body? A woman who he loved over a man he hated? Supposedly hated? And I say that, because his actions at the end, suggest to me that there was a strange affinity he felt towards the Joker. I read in a synopsis for Arkham Knight, that Joker's death, not Talia's, is what still affects him.

That ending was one of the worst pieces of character writing ever done for Batman and Joker, and totally misses the point of their relationship. Batman would save Joker sure, as he specified in the game, but to carry his dead body out and tenderly lay it down, all the while Talia's is left behind, is the antithesis of what Batman would do in a situation like that.

Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't know Batman. The likes of those scans I posted above, or Dark Knight Returns etc prove it.

But why should this surprise anyone? It's hardly the the first bit of bad character writing these games have done. AC is by far the worst written game of the trio of Arkham games. It's a brilliant game, but the story and characterizations are heavily flawed.

Well, I liked it

It's funny. When I point out what I like and don't like from the comics or the films and whatnot, I have to be wrong. I have to be reminded that it happens in the comics, and Batman has done both things I like and don't like. But when there are occasions of Batman doing something, that others don't like, they have be right by their own favourite form of writing.
Batman throwing Joker in the dumpster - does that tie in with him giving him a chance for life and redemption in TKJ? And that was considered main canon after it became popular enough, it wasn't just Alan Moore's one shot Batman and his own personal behaviour.
So nobody is right and nobody is wrong

Batman behaves in whichever way the writer wants for him...just because you WANT him to hate the Joker, because you think that's the case because you see it often in the comics, even though there are rare occasions of Batman showing Joker compassion, doesn't mean it has to be so, right?

Sure, Batman hasn't done what he did at the end of AC, but the way in which he CAN be wrote and often is, it can make it a possibility.

 

[Rodrigo90]

On what planet would Batman have any sadness or respect for the Joker? I've read comics where Batman wishes he was dead. That he wants nothing more.

Which makes sense. Batman is mad at Joker and hates him for what he does. But when push comes to shove, would he still feel that way? There's no definitive answer.

Didn't you think that was ridiculously out of character in AC the way he carried Joker out, but left Talia's body behind? They were so blatantly trying to recreate this scene:

Except they left out the most important part:

Batman wasn't leaving the body of someone he cares about behind in favor of carrying the Joker's out, and he didn't tenderly place Joker on the hood of a car. He threw him in a dumpster.

But Joker wasn't dead. He was still alive. Maybe that's why Batman threw him in the dumpster? Not because he thought he was dead?

And in AC, it wasn't about Batman "caring" for Joker. It was him coming to this strange realiazation and new profound feelings from Joker's death. What's caring about him got to do with it?

Even in TJK, he doesn't care about Joker...he just doesn't want either of them to hate eachother anymore and wants to put a peaceful truce between him. Which was very adult. Futile perhaps, but noble of Batman to at least try.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I could accept Batman's approach to Joker's death a bit more if he hadn't left the love of his life's body back in the theatre. That's what makes it tripe. He cares enough to carry out the Joker, but the woman he loves doesn't even get a mention?


Actually, that's the second time a big twist comes to naught. Not the actual Clayface reveal, that was good, but the bit where Talia dies proceeds to have no purpose whatsoever. The stakes are not raised because we see very little evidence that Batman cares, she's never mentioned again, and we don't see Batman afterwards display any emotion.


Oh, and we still don't find out what happens to the infected people out in Gotham. That plotline is completely dropped and forgotten about. And that is no small thing, that was the main stakes driving Batman with the cure plot along. It's like the Millenium Falcon leaving the Death Star and delivering the plans to the Rebel Alliance, only for the Death Star to never appear or be mentioned again. Instead the Empire invades Yavin IV and Luke and Vader have a short lightsabre fight.


Really, Arkham City is fun, no doubt. But it is a travesty of storytelling. the actual idea of Arkham City is dropped immediately until the finale, then dropped again. The entirety of the plot is searching for the cure filler. There are several twists that serve no purpose whatsoever and actually worsen the narrative. It has a terribly written portrayal of Two-Face as just another mobster, whose good side is the one suggesting a show trial. Catwoman is so badly written (really? Just cat puns and sexual posturing? What happened to Dini's magnificent Selina in Heart of Hush? Or Brubaker's wonderful run?) that it nears Halle Berry levels of irritation.

Oh, and the Zsasz subplot is a slog.

 

[Jick]

I loved that scene of Batman throwing Joker in the dumpster. Since they decided to forget Talia in the game, I wish we had something similar to that.

 

[The Joker]

Ah, but remember...Batman forgot about Protocol 10 for a few minutes.

Say who? Where is your proof he forgot about it? He mentioned Protocol 10 like 30 seconds later. "So that's Protocol 10. Poison Gotham. I expected more".

He only found out that Joker threatened to poison people after he said that he was fine with the two of them dying.
Then thought protocol 10 was just that plot, it wasn't separate and Joker then says he doesn't know what Batman means by P10. So Batman was left with the plot of saving Joker and discovering what protocol 10 was about.

This is not true. Batman was ok with dying in spite of there still being a need for him there in Arkham City. Strange and Protocol 10 was the reason he was in there in the first place.

Your he forgot about protocol 10 for a few minutes excuse is nothing but unfounded theory.

Death can change a man in many ways and Batman's response clinched it

Is that the best you've got? Batman suddenly cared more about carrying out Joker's dead carcass over a woman he supposedly loves because death can change people?

But you're ignoring what comes after that speech
"I still would have saved you..."
So what does this tell you? You can chalk it up to bad writing that doesn't match the comics, but I chalk it up to something powerful and unique.

It tells me Batman saves criminals he hates. He does it all the time in the comics. It's hardly the first time he's saved Joker's ass, or Penguin's, or Two Face's, or Riddler's, or Zsasz's etc.

But that doesn't mean he'd be ceremoniously carrying their dead bodies like a mournful man carrying a dead friend if they did die. Especially over the dead body of someone he really did love.

This was Rocksteady's Batman. Bale was Nolan's. Keaton was Burton's. They're all different.

Yeah so? Is that supposed to validate this bastardization?

And I said, I don't know why Batman wanted to save him. Maybe it was just because of his moral code and he had no desire, or maybe he did want to and felt conflicted and disturbed over it. Who knows? Either way he was torn about what do for those few seconds...then told Joker, he would have saved him.

We know why Batman would have saved him. That's what he does. He saves people, even criminals of the worst kind. If you're at all familiar with the comics then you know this.

But wouldn't he have carried out Talia's body? A woman who he loved over a man he hated? Supposedly hated? And I say that, because his actions at the end, suggest to me that there was a strange affinity he felt towards the Joker.

That's the bastardization. Batman would never do that. Any time Joker has died (TDKR) or been at death's door (Batman and Son), he has treated him with nothing but contempt. So where does this idea that he would have any kind of sadness, respect, or affinity for this murderous psycho just because he's dead?

I read in a synopsis for Arkham Knight, that Joker's death, not Talia's, is what still affects him.

Then we're in for more of the same horrendous character writing, and if it's true it just validates that it is sadness he feels for Joker. Otherwise why would it still be affecting him?

Well, I liked it

I'm glad for you.

It's funny. When I point out what I like and don't like from the comics or the films and whatnot, I have to be wrong. I have to be reminded that it happens in the comics, and Batman has done both things I like and don't like. But when there are occasions of Batman doing something, that others don't like, they have be right by their own favourite form of writing.

Man, it's hardly anyone's fault if what you like is out of character and can be proven as such with comic book proof.

Batman throwing Joker in the dumpster - does that tie in with him giving him a chance for life and redemption in TKJ? And that was considered main canon after it became popular enough, it wasn't just Alan Moore's one shot Batman and his own personal behaviour.
So nobody is right and nobody is wrong

You've lost me. How does Batman throwing Joker's critically injured body into a dumpster tie in with giving him a chance at redemption like in TKJ?

Batman behaves in whichever way the writer wants for him.

That is such a cop out excuse for bad writing. If Batman helped Joker kill 20 people, would that be ok just because the writer wanted to write him that way?

just because you WANT him to hate the Joker, because you think that's the case because you see it often in the comics, even though there are rare occasions of Batman showing Joker compassion, doesn't mean it has to be so, right?

It's not a case of what I want, it's a case of what is fact. Batman does hate the Joker. Batman does want him dead. When has Batman shown Joker that level of compassion?

Which makes sense. Batman is mad at Joker and hates him for what he does. But when push comes to shove, would he still feel that way? There's no definitive answer.

Well lets see, we've seen Batman's reaction when Joker was shot in the face and dying; he threw him into a dumpster. In TDKR, he spat on his body.

Definitive enough to paint a clear picture.

But Joker wasn't dead. He was still alive. Maybe that's why Batman threw him in the dumpster? Not because he thought he was dead?

What difference does that make? He was dying. He just got shot in the face. Why didn't he lay him down tenderly for the ambulance people to have a chance to save him instead of throwing him in a dumpster? And Joker didn't even just kill anyone Batman really cared about in that scenario, unlike in AC.

And in AC, it wasn't about Batman "caring" for Joker. It was him coming to this strange realiazation and new profound feelings from Joker's death. What's caring about him got to do with it?

What new profound feelings for his death? Where are you getting this from? All AC shows is Batman favored carrying out the worst most evil man he's ever faced over a woman he loved. That's why it's tripe.

Even in TJK, he doesn't care about Joker...he just doesn't want either of them to hate eachother anymore and wants to put a peaceful truce between him. Which was very adult. Futile perhaps, but noble of Batman to at least try.

It's nothing to do with hating each other (Batman hates nearly all his enemies), it's about killing each other. Batman is convinced that if they continue the way they are one or both of them will end up dead, and he wants to avoid that, so he offers Joker a chance at redemption. Nothing at all like AC's plotline.

I could accept Batman's approach to Joker's death a bit more if he hadn't left the love of his life's body back in the theatre. That's what makes it tripe. He cares enough to carry out the Joker, but the woman he loves doesn't even get a mention?


Actually, that's the second time a big twist comes to naught. Not the actual Clayface reveal, that was good, but the bit where Talia dies proceeds to have no purpose whatsoever. The stakes are not raised because we see very little evidence that Batman cares, she's never mentioned again, and we don't see Batman afterwards display any emotion.


Oh, and we still don't find out what happens to the infected people out in Gotham. That plotline is completely dropped and forgotten about. And that is no small thing, that was the main stakes driving Batman with the cure plot along. It's like the Millenium Falcon leaving the Death Star and delivering the plans to the Rebel Alliance, only for the Death Star to never appear or be mentioned again. Instead the Empire invades Yavin IV and Luke and Vader have a short lightsabre fight.


Really, Arkham City is fun, no doubt. But it is a travesty of storytelling. the actual idea of Arkham City is dropped immediately until the finale, then dropped again. The entirety of the plot is searching for the cure filler. There are several twists that serve no purpose whatsoever and actually worsen the narrative. It has a terribly written portrayal of Two-Face as just another mobster, whose good side is the one suggesting a show trial. Catwoman is so badly written (really? Just cat puns and sexual posturing? What happened to Dini's magnificent Selina in Heart of Hush? Or Brubaker's wonderful run?) that it nears Halle Berry levels of irritation.

Oh, and the Zsasz subplot is a slog.

Thank you

 

[Nathan]

You know, there were so many instances where the Joker supposedly died, and Batman didn't know he actually survived. You never saw him sitting in a cave afterwards and contemplating life. His greatest enemy died, and life went on.