Batman: Arkham Knight - Part 4

[The Joker]

You know, there were so many instances where the Joker supposedly died, and Batman didn't know he actually survived. You never saw him sitting in a cave afterwards and contemplating life. His greatest enemy died, and life went on.

Exactly. I have yet to see any version of Batman show the kind of compassion for Joker, either dying or dead (or assumed dead), that we saw in AC. I mean we're talking about The Joker, the most unsympathetic evil villain in Batman's rogues gallery, and all of comic bookdom.

 

[Bruce Malone]

So at this point are we gonna end up looking at a fall 2015 release date?

I believe the previous Rocksteady arkham releases were in the fall and with this game missing fall 2014, I guess they're just gonna wait it out?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Say who? Where is your proof he forgot about it? He mentioned Protocol 10 like 30 seconds later. "So that's Protocol 10. Poison Gotham. I expected more".



This is not true. Batman was ok with dying in spite of there still being a need for him there in Arkham City. Strange and Protocol 10 was the reason he was in there in the first place.

Your he forgot about protocol 10 for a few minutes excuse is nothing but unfounded theory.

But he had no idea what protocol 10 was, until Joker said otherwise, he thought it was to poison Gotham.
And what was he to say to Joker?

Put up a hard man act in front of his mortal enemy, not given into his demands or say
"Please Joker, I've got to stop Strange and his protocol 10 plan!"?

Is that the best you've got? Batman suddenly cared more about carrying out Joker's dead carcass over a woman he supposedly loves because death can change people?

Well, until we get some clarification to the reason, I'll stick by that theory, rather than saying
"He cared about Joker more than Talia and was sad".
There HAS to be a reason for this, other than "bad writing". Maybe there's a very good reason? Not a one people like, but still.

It tells me Batman saves criminals he hates. He does it all the time in the comics. It's hardly the first time he's saved Joker's ass, or Penguin's, or Two Face's, or Riddler's, or Zsasz's etc.

So why couldn't he have saved Ra's in BB?

But that doesn't mean he'd be ceremoniously carrying their dead bodies like a mournful man carrying a dead friend if they did die. Especially over the dead body of someone he really did love.

Like I said, they may explain the reason to that in AK.
You may not like it, but they might explain it...they better had.

Yeah so? Is that supposed to validate this bastardization?

I was hoping

We know why Batman would have saved him. That's what he does. He saves people, even criminals of the worst kind. If you're at all familiar with the comics then you know this.

That's what I said! But he still left Ra's to die for no good reason. You can justify to me again, but it still doesn't make it any easier that he saves villians...and let's them die when he feels like it

That's the bastardization. Batman would never do that. Any time Joker has died (TDKR) or been at death's door (Batman and Son), he has treated him with nothing but contempt. So where does this idea that he would have any kind of sadness, respect, or affinity for this murderous psycho just because he's dead?

I don't count Miller's Batman as canon.
Second, like I said, Rocksteady's Batman did what he did, for some reason, that has yet to be explained, over his fallen enemy. The comic book Batman behaves in a different manner...Throwing his dying enemy into a dumpster.
We can't compare those really.
But the Batman in Arkham felt hatred towards Joker when he was alive and then felt something, that has yet to be explained to us, when he died.

Then we're in for more of the same horrendous character writing, and if it's true it just validates that it is sadness he feels for Joker. Otherwise why would it still be affecting him?

We have to wait and see...and it has to be something good.

I'm glad for you

Man, it's hardly anyone's fault if what you like is out of character and can be proven as such with comic book proof.

Same applies to everyone I guess

You've lost me. How does Batman throwing Joker's critically injured body into a dumpster tie in with giving him a chance at redemption like in TKJ?

Because feelings of hatred isn't always on Batman's mind when it comes to the Joker.

That is such a cop out excuse for bad writing. If Batman helped Joker kill 20 people, would that be ok just because the writer wanted to write him that way?

Absolutely not.

It's not a case of what I want, it's a case of what is fact. Batman does hate the Joker. Batman does want him dead. When has Batman shown Joker that level of compassion?

Like you said, when he saves him...The Killing Joke.
Might be more occasions that we're unaware of.

Well lets see, we've seen Batman's reaction when Joker was shot in the face and dying; he threw him into a dumpster. In TDKR, he spat on his body.

Definitive enough to paint a clear picture.



What difference does that make? He was dying. He just got shot in the face. Why didn't he lay him down tenderly for the ambulance people to have a chance to save him instead of throwing him in a dumpster? And Joker didn't even just kill anyone Batman really cared about in that scenario, unlike in AC.

He nearly got Gordon killed in that comic.

I can't explain away why Batman carried Joker's body, but we might just get an explanation later in AK.

What new profound feelings for his death? Where are you getting this from? All AC shows is Batman favored carrying out the worst most evil man he's ever faced over a woman he loved. That's why it's tripe.

But ask WHY? Why did he do that? What was he feeling? There's more to it than just Batman being a dick and carrying Joker instead of Talia. And he wasn't himself was he? So from that, his feelings of hate, weren't present...Something affected him after Joker died, it's as simple as that.

It's nothing to do with hating each other (Batman hates nearly all his enemies), it's about killing each other. Batman is convinced that if they continue the way they are tone or both of them will end up dead, and he wants to avoid that, so he offers Joker a chance at redemption. Nothing at all like AC's plotline.

But like I said, his feelings of hate and lack of care towards either of their deaths, was not with him then. He let other feelings get in the way, letting go of his hate for one story. He wanted to help him, even after everything he did to Barbara and Gordon...and this borders on the lines of AC
"In spite of everything...I still would've saved you"

Thank you

You're welcome

 

[Rodrigo90]

You know, there were so many instances where the Joker supposedly died, and Batman didn't know he actually survived. You never saw him sitting in a cave afterwards and contemplating life. His greatest enemy died, and life went on.

That's true.

But we don't know what was going on in Batman's head in AC.

Might be a huge departure from the comicbook Batman, but I'm glad. Because it's different.

 

[Rodrigo90]

So at this point are we gonna end up looking at a fall 2015 release date?

I believe the previous Rocksteady arkham releases were in the fall and with this game missing fall 2014, I guess they're just gonna wait it out?

June 2015

 

[The Joker]

But he had no idea what protocol 10 was, until Joker said otherwise, he thought it was to poison Gotham.
And what was he to say to Joker?

That's not the point. Batman was in AC to stop Strange and what ever Protocol 10 was. There is nothing to suggest he forgot about it like you suggest. Just because he wrongly assumed the poison Gotham plot that Joker revealed was Protocol 10 doesn't mean he had forgotten about it before this.

Put up a hard man act in front of his mortal enemy, not given into his demands or say
"Please Joker, I've got to stop Strange and his protocol 10 plan!"?

What are you talking about? Joker had him tied to a chair and he was poisoned. Batman didn't ask him if there was a cure or anything. He just said he was fine with them both dying. There was no hard man act. He only became concerned with finding a cure when he learned Gotham was in danger from being poisoned and he needed that cure to save them.

Well, until we get some clarification to the reason, I'll stick by that theory, rather than saying
"He cared about Joker more than Talia and was sad".
There HAS to be a reason for this, other than "bad writing". Maybe there's a very good reason? Not a one people like, but still.

This game was littered with bad writing. From Strange being a Ra's puppet, to Bane being a moron trapped behind an elevator gate, to Two Face being Catwoman's punching bag twice, to Batman leaving Talia's body so he could carry Joker's out.

I hope you're right and they do reveal a better reason why Batman is more cut up by the death of the most evil man he has ever fought over the death of a woman he loves. But I'm not holding my breath given the track record of character writing with Rocksteady.

So why couldn't he have saved Ra's in BB?

He could have. He chose not to. Just like in those examples I showed you from the comics. It was a choice, not that he was incapable of doing it. It's not applicable to AC's situation. He could have saved Joker, and was going to until Joker screwed it up by stabbing him with a knife while he was holding the cure vial.

Like I said, they may explain the reason to that in AK.
You may not like it, but they might explain it...they better had.

And like I said I'm not holding my breath.

I was hoping

But why would you hope that? Does any out of character writing be validated just because they someone's version of a character?

That's what I said! But he still left Ra's to die for no good reason. You can justify to me again, but it still doesn't make it any easier that he saves villians...and let's them die when he feels like it

Easier for who? You? That's your problem if you don't like it. It's something he has done in the comics, ergo it's valid. You may not like it, but it's valid. Treating Joker with such compassion, especially over someone he loves, that is so out of character and not valid.

I don't count Miller's Batman as canon.

You don't accept one of the most famous and popular Batman stories of all time as a valid take of the character.

Ok.

Second, like I said, Rocksteady's Batman did what he did, for some reason, that has yet to be explained, over his fallen enemy. The comic book Batman behaves in a different manner...Throwing his dying enemy into a dumpster.
We can't compare those really.
But the Batman in Arkham felt hatred towards Joker when he was alive and then felt something, that has yet to be explained to us, when he died.

I don't know why you think there's going to be some deep explanation about why Batman carried Joker out at the end of AC. The answer is obvious. It was just a case of bad writing. The game is full of it.

Of course you can compare Batman throwing a dying enemy into a dumpster. It shows the level of contempt Batman has for Joker's life

We have to wait and see...and it has to be something good.

Take some advice from a friend here; don't get your hopes up.

Same applies to everyone I guess

Everyone who feels the same way as you over stuff like this yes. If you like this then that's fine, but it's nobody's fault that it's not supported by the comics.

Because feelings of hatred isn't always on Batman's mind when it comes to the Joker.

Since when? When has Batman ever not been hating the Joker? Even in TKJ he still hated him, he just offered him a chance at rehabilitation in order to avoid what Batman saw as an inevitable outcome where one of them or both of them would die.

Absolutely not.

Good. So saying Rocksteady wrote him this way doesn't make it right.

Like you said, when he saves him...The Killing Joke.
Might be more occasions that we're unaware of.

When did he save him in TKJ? And he didn't show him compassion. He offered him an alternative route to save them both from death because he believed they were both headed for a collision course where one of them or both of them would die.

He nearly got Gordon killed in that comic.

Not nearly the same as actually killing someone. Joker routinely threatens lives all the time. Including Robin's, Batgirl's etc.

But ask WHY? Why did he do that? What was he feeling? There's more to it than just Batman being a dick and carrying Joker instead of Talia. And he wasn't himself was he? So from that, his feelings of hate, weren't present...Something affected him after Joker died, it's as simple as that.

The reason is bad writing. It was just done for cheap dramatic effect for the ending of the game. Joker dies and Batman ceremoniously carries him out, showing all the reactions from various characters in the process; Joker's men, Harley, Catwoman, Gordon etc.

That's all.

But like I said, his feelings of hate and lack of care towards either of their deaths, was not with him then. He let other feelings get in the way, letting go of his hate for one story. He wanted to help him, even after everything he did to Barbara and Gordon...and this borders on the lines of AC
"In spite of everything...I still would've saved you"

He does that all the time. That's what Batman does. He's saved Joker many times before, and many other villains, too. Why you are putting so much stock in him intending to save him here I don't know. You'd swear he's never saved an enemy before the way you're putting so much stock into it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

That's not the point. Batman was in AC to stop Strange and what ever Protocol 10 was. There is nothing to suggest he forgot about it like you suggest. Just because he wrongly assumed the poison Gotham plot that Joker revealed was Protocol 10 doesn't mean he had forgotten about it before this.

What are you talking about? Joker had him tied to a chair and he was poisoned. Batman didn't ask him if there was a cure or anything. He just said he was fine with them both dying. There was no hard man act. He only became concerned with finding a cure when he learned Gotham was in danger from being poisoned and he needed that cure to save them.

But you're saying that Batman shouldn't have said what he did to Joker, because it shows he perhaps didn't care enough about his life and stopping Protocol 10.

I thought it was just about him being defiant towards Joker's threats of death, acting aloof.

This game was littered with bad writing. From Strange being a Ra's puppet, to Bane being a moron trapped behind an elevator gate, to Two Face being Catwoman's punching bag twice, to Batman leaving Talia's body so he could carry Joker's out.

I hope you're right and they do reveal a better reason why Batman is more cut up by the death of the most evil man he has ever fought over the death of a woman he loves. But I'm not holding my breath given the track record of character writing with Rocksteady.

Bane and Two-Face's roles were pretty weak. But I liked Strange and Ra's joining up. That could've been a movie plot actually. It was better than Scarecrow being a money hungry puppet for Ra's in BB.

And yes, they better follow up with a good explanation, because I'm looking forward to it! Will we get one? Probably not

He could have. He chose not to. Just like in those examples I showed you from the comics. It was a choice, not that he was incapable of doing it. It's not applicable to AC's situation. He could have saved Joker, and was going to until Joker screwed it up by stabbing him with a knife while he was holding the cure vial.

Well, if they're going to dig their own graves, let them jump in!

And like I said I'm not holding my breath.

Me neither.

But why would you hope that? Does any out of character writing be validated just because they someone's version of a character?

If there's a line of connection and consistency with the source material, that's fine.

Easier for who? You? That's your problem if you don't like it. It's something he has done in the comics, ergo it's valid. You may not like it, but it's valid. Treating Joker with such compassion, especially over someone he loves, that is so out of character and not valid.

But it may not be out character if we understood what the reason was.
If an explanation does appear in AK, and it works with Batman's character, would you accept it?

You don't accept one of the most famous and popular Batman stories of all time as a valid take of the character.

Ok.

Miller's Batman...I don’t know where I stand with that guy...if you look at it as Miller intended, are we meant to accept that Bruce beat Dick Grayson? And couldn't give a monkeys when he was the Joker in the sequel and killed him without a seconds thought? That was out of character.

I don't know why you think there's going to be some deep explanation about why Batman carried Joker out at the end of AC. The answer is obvious. It was just a case of bad writing. The game is full of it.

I don't believe that. That ending designed for a purpose and if the Arkham Knight synopsis is true, Batman is still affected by that ending.

Of course you can compare Batman throwing a dying enemy into a dumpster. It shows the level of contempt Batman has for Joker's life

But that's not the case in AC.

Take some advice from a friend here; don't get your hopes up.

This past week, I've learned that

Everyone who feels the same way as you over stuff like this yes. If you like this then that's fine, but it's nobody's fault that it's not supported by the comics.

That's fine.

Since when? When has Batman ever not been hating the Joker? Even in TKJ he still hated him, he just offered him a chance at rehabilitation in order to avoid what Batman saw as an inevitable outcome where one of them or both of them would die.

Batman's levels of hatred towards Joker definitely softened. That was shown when he was pondering to Alfred in the Batcave. And in the end, for a few brief moments, the two enemies put aside their hatred...One offered the other help, the other sadly refused...then both shared a laugh with one another.
My God it was strange

Good. So saying Rocksteady wrote him this way doesn't make it right.

I have to wait til AK to confirm that, because they may just pull an ace out their sleeve and satisfy us...Let's wait and give them the benefit of the doubt
THEN we can rip on them for ****ing up a potentially interesting concept.

When did he save him in TKJ? And he didn't show him compassion. He offered him an alternative route to save them both from death because he believed they were both headed for a collision course where one of them or both of them would die.

The offer and the way he said it was compassionate.
Come on, even the Joker was moved in a way we've never seen...He actually expressed some form of guilt and regret. Why? Because Batman showed a side to himself that even Joker hadn't seen from him. It may have been a solution to save both their lives, but more came out of it...and it softened the two men which allowed them to have a laugh over a joke. It was strange, but it was moving at the same time. Then Joker goes and spoils things yet again and Batman washes his hands.

Not nearly the same as actually killing someone. Joker routinely threatens lives all the time. Including Robin's, Batgirl's etc.

Oh definitely.

The reason is bad writing. It was just done for cheap dramatic effect for the ending of the game. Joker dies and Batman ceremoniously carries him out, showing all the reactions from various characters in the process; Joker's men, Harley, Catwoman, Gordon etc.

That's all.

If they wanted proper dramatics, it would've been Talia he carried out. The fact that it wasn't, and what we have to wait for, as it's hinted, is that Joker's death impacted Batman in a strange way. It may be bad writing or it may be something else. We don't know for certain yet.

He does that all the time. That's what Batman does. He's saved Joker many times before, and many other villains, too. Why you are putting so much stock in him intending to save him here I don't know. You'd swear he's never saved an enemy before the way you're putting so much stock into it.

Yes, Batman saves a lot of criminals...but when have you ever seen him so conflicted about either saving a certain one, or letting him die, than Joker?
There is no bigger villain that has affected him and he has never put his code to the question than when dealing with anyone on than Joker...and the fact that he seriously pondered about what to do, before coming to the conclusion of saving him, this great evil, that has hurt and murdered so many - don't you think that decision would've affected him?

We don't know what feelings Batman was going through at the end of AC when he carried Joker. We don't know if it was his decision to let Joker live that affected him or Joker's death itself...Did he feel sadness? Or something more disturbing to him that we have yet to discover?

And if we don't get that explanation...I will seriously go berserk!

And we could go on about this until June, because neither of us are going to back down
But my brain feels like it's going to push its way out the the top of my skull, so I'll let you have the last word

 

[TX85]

I still don't think Batman got like a"heartbroken princess"and he wasn't in the bat cave mourning Joker,However..I agree it was very out of character and didn't make sense even in the game's universe! I think Bruce would have taken his body but not carry him like that and probably put him in a chamber in the bat cave or burry him or even turn cremate the body.

AC so far was the best game overall but I agree the story and characterization was by far the worse! If Joker's death's aftermath is a big plot point then I do have some worries about Bruce/Batman's characterization about it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

As much as I'm willing to defend it, I still can't make sense of it
I'll only understand in AK and that's IF they explain it!

But I do like it. It makes Batman and Joker's connection a lot more strange and complex than just hatred between the two. I feel that should be the case anyway.

 

[The Joker]

But you're saying that Batman shouldn't have said what he did to Joker, because it shows he perhaps didn't care enough about his life and stopping Protocol 10.

I thought it was just about him being defiant towards Joker's threats of death, acting aloof.

Why would you think that? If he cared about his own life then he would have been demanding to know where the cure was, or if one even existed, like he did when he found Mr. Freeze. What's acting macho going to achieve here when he's tied to a chair and dying?

Bane and Two-Face's roles were pretty weak. But I liked Strange and Ra's joining up. That could've been a movie plot actually. It was better than Scarecrow being a money hungry puppet for Ra's in BB.

How was Strange being reduced to a puppet good or even worthy of a movie plot? Strange is only seen in the beginning and the ending of the game, and the reveal of him being a puppet did nothing to enhance the plot, nor did Ra's being "killed" 2 minutes after the reveal. It just turned two good villains into jokes.

I'm not taking your bait to turn this into a Nolan movie discussion, but needless to say you're 100% wrong there. Any villain team up in the Batman movies was better than this. Even Bane and Poison Ivy in B&R because at least Schumacher never built Bane up to be something he wasn't in that movie. We knew from the get-go he was just Ivy's hench.

Well, if they're going to dig their own graves, let them jump in!

Not sure I follow your meaning here?

If there's a line of connection and consistency with the source material, that's fine.

And there isn't here.

But it may not be out character if we understood what the reason was.
If an explanation does appear in AK, and it works with Batman's character, would you accept it?

Only if it made sense. Right now I cannot think of a single reason why Batman would choose to haul Joker's evil dead carcass out over his beloved Talia's.

Miller's Batman...I don’t know where I stand with that guy...if you look at it as Miller intended, are we meant to accept that Bruce beat Dick Grayson? And couldn't give a monkeys when he was the Joker in the sequel and killed him without a seconds thought? That was out of character.

You're talking about The Dark Knight Strikes Again there. Not a huge fan favorite story like DKR.

I don't believe that. That ending designed for a purpose and if the Arkham Knight synopsis is true, Batman is still affected by that ending.

First of all where is this synopsis? Have you got a link to it please? Second if Batman is still affected by Joker's death then it solidifies what myself and the others have been saying. He was mournful for Joker.

I don't know how it could be interpreted in any other way. There was no need for him to carry his body out and very gently lay it on the hood of a Cop car. Only someone who cares for the deceased would do that. Otherwise he'd have left Joker where he died and let the Cops scoop up his corpse.

But that's not the case in AC.

I know. That's why it doesn't sit right with so many people. It's out of character and frankly stupid.

Batman's levels of hatred towards Joker definitely softened. That was shown when he was pondering to Alfred in the Batcave. And in the end, for a few brief moments, the two enemies put aside their hatred...One offered the other help, the other sadly refused...then both shared a laugh with one another.
My God it was strange

His hatred levels did not soften. He just said to Alfred that he wonders how the two of them hate each other so much when either one knows so little about the other. It was just a pondering question.

The offer of help at the end, as I already explained was because he wanted to avoid killing the Joker, or vice versa, or them both ending up dead. Joker, not being a total moron, refused because even he realizes he's too far gone for that. The laugh they share at the end is one of ironic humor.

Also what I find really funny is some people interpret that ending as Batman killing the Joker.

I have to wait til AK to confirm that, because they may just pull an ace out their sleeve and satisfy us...Let's wait and give them the benefit of the doubt
THEN we can rip on them for ****ing up a potentially interesting concept.

Like I said given their track record, it just seems like wishful thinking that any aces will be pulled out of the sleeves over that. But I hope to be proven wrong. I just don't think I will be.

The offer and the way he said it was compassionate.
Come on, even the Joker was moved in a way we've never seen...He actually expressed some form of guilt and regret. Why? Because Batman showed a side to himself that even Joker hadn't seen from him. It may have been a solution to save both their lives, but more came out of it...and it softened the two men which allowed them to have a laugh over a joke. It was strange, but it was moving at the same time. Then Joker goes and spoils things yet again and Batman washes his hands.

Well of course the offer was made in a compassionate way. He had to try and convince the Joker to take his offer of help, and seem like he really meant it.

As for Batman showing a compassionate side, we've seen that hundreds of times. Joker hasn't because Batman has no compassion for him. Even here he was offering to help him only because he believed they were headed for death if they kept going the way they were.

If they wanted proper dramatics, it would've been Talia he carried out. The fact that it wasn't, and what we have to wait for, as it's hinted, is that Joker's death impacted Batman in a strange way. It may be bad writing or it may be something else. We don't know for certain yet.

No it wouldn't because Talia is not as popular as the Joker, her relationship with Batman is not as interesting or heated as Joker's, and she was not as big of a character in the game as him either. Batman spent the whole game playing chase the cure because of Joker. So when it all ends with Joker dying and never getting that cure, they use the cheap dramatics of Batman carrying his body out and showing all the shocked character reactions.

Yes, Batman saves a lot of criminals...but when have you ever seen him so conflicted about either saving a certain one, or letting him die, than Joker?

I've never seen him conflicted about saving Joker or anyone before. Have you, and if so where?

There is no bigger villain that has affected him and he has never put his code to the question than when dealing with anyone on than Joker...and the fact that he seriously pondered about what to do, before coming to the conclusion of saving him, this great evil, that has hurt and murdered so many - don't you think that decision would've affected him?

No not at all. Because he saves killers all the time. Yes Joker is by far the worst one, but it's not the first time he's saved him. So why would it be such a big deal now?

We don't know what feelings Batman was going through at the end of AC when he carried Joker. We don't know if it was his decision to let Joker live that affected him or Joker's death itself...Did he feel sadness? Or something more disturbing to him that we have yet to discover?

I can't see a rational reason for any of those. Why would he be affected by deciding to let Joker live, when that was not even the reason Joker died? Nor was Joker's death his fault. There's nothing here for Batman to feel guilty or conflicted about. The only strong emotion he should have been feeling here is for Talia. And she was forgotten about.

And if we don't get that explanation...I will seriously go berserk!

And we could go on about this until June, because neither of us are going to back down
But my brain feels like it's going to push its way out the the top of my skull, so I'll let you have the last word

Well I would appreciate if you could make one last reply by giving me a link to that synopsis you mentioned.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

So at this point are we gonna end up looking at a fall 2015 release date?

I believe the previous Rocksteady arkham releases were in the fall and with this game missing fall 2014, I guess they're just gonna wait it out?

You do know its already been reset at an official june release right? I don't think they'll push it back once more.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Well I would appreciate if you could make one last reply by giving me a link to that synopsis you mentioned.

It's in here
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...sons-batman-arkham-knight-has-us-excited.aspx

The game's director said it. Batman is apparently disturbed by feelings he never thought he would experience after Joker's death - a feeling of bond.

 

[craigdbfan]

Not the biggest fan of that angle to be honest. I love AC but that whole thing didn't gel with me all that well.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

You know, there were so many instances where the Joker supposedly died, and Batman didn't know he actually survived. You never saw him sitting in a cave afterwards and contemplating life. His greatest enemy died, and life went on.

Exactly. I have yet to see any version of Batman show the kind of compassion for Joker, either dying or dead (or assumed dead), that we saw in AC. I mean we're talking about The Joker, the most unsympathetic evil villain in Batman's rogues gallery, and all of comic bookdom.

Batman does seem to mourn/reflect on The Joker's death in The Batman vs. Dracula (2005).

- ''Alfred, tonight Joker met his demise''.
- ''I lost Joker... I won't lose anyone else on my watch''.

 

[zenith16]

hmmm I just know that, we'll have to see how the story is for Arkham knight is. If it's the story you all are expecting (i that it's good or not ) cause I've said this before the writer always answers to the game designer which is different from the head/ over all director. That person let all that stuff you hate through when he/ she could have told M.r. Dini this won't do.

this was stated by the head writer of Rachet a clank which is on video that's who he answered to before release this was stated during the blow up with bioware with mass Effect 3 (which people won't stop going on about til this day ) the lead designer always does the final look around with the writer and tell's them all what stay's and goes story wise and over all.

I know some Don't like to hear that here , but the head designer which is different from the overall director of the game is the editor in that sense to the writer for games .

BTW in most medium where comic's are involved like batman there's a lot that conflict with how he feels /does.

It's why ant man Henry pym won't be used for the movies cause if marvel went around with that stupid mistake of hitting wasp the normal movie public/ audience won't accept that crap. it's why he's played by Michale Douglas ad elderly won't ever be avenger. some stuff won't be accepted and a more compassionate batman make him better to the public eye. one that respects life on tv animated series no matter how sick that person is.

Though there is a limit to how far one might let some one like joker continue to do what he does.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Not the biggest fan of that angle to be honest. I love AC but that whole thing didn't gel with me all that well.

I really like it.

It's odd, that's a given. But it's exploring a new dynamic of their relationship and I've always felt there should be more to it than just hatred.

 

[zenith16]

hmm

 

[The Joker]

It's in here
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...sons-batman-arkham-knight-has-us-excited.aspx

The game's director said it. Batman is apparently disturbed by feelings he never thought he would experience after Joker's death - a feeling of bond.

Thank you. That sounds awful. I cannot imagine what this 'bond' is that they're hinting at which could cause Batman to be affected so badly by Joker's death. Especially when it wasn't even his fault he died. That would be the only reason Batman would be affected by it, if he was to blame.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Arkham Knight is connected to the Joker in some way.

Not the biggest fan of that angle to be honest. I love AC but that whole thing didn't gel with me all that well.

Likewise.

Batman does seem to mourn/reflect on The Joker's death in The Batman vs. Dracula (2005).

- ''Alfred, tonight Joker met his demise''.
- ''I lost Joker... I won't lose anyone else on my watch''.

Doesn't sound mournful to me. He's just saying someone died on his watch, and he won't lose anyone else.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Thank you. That sounds awful. I cannot imagine what this 'bond' is that they're hinting at which could cause Batman to be affected so badly by Joker's death. Especially when it wasn't even his fault he died. That would be the only reason Batman would be affected by it, if he was to blame.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Arkham Knight is connected to the Joker in some way.

Joker's always said he was the ying to Batman's yang...maybe he only felt it at that point? I don't know

Maybe the Knight will force Batman to relive out those feelings? Could be the case.

Probably Talia back from the dead and she's pissed that he carried Joker out instead of her

 

[The Joker]

I really like it.

It's odd, that's a given. But it's exploring a new dynamic of their relationship and I've always felt there should be more to it than just hatred.

There is more to it than just hatred. Joker is obsessed with Batman. He loves the challenge he brings him, and often he doesn't want to kill him and keeps him around for fun because he thinks without Batman life would be boring;

As you well know The Dark Knight heavily touched on this as the basis of the Batman/Joker relationship;

"I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you, go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO!!! No you... you complete ME!"

"I had a vision of a world without Batman. The mob ground out a little profit and the Police tried to shut them down one block at a time, and it was so BORING!".

"You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun"

Even BTAS touched on this in the episode, The Man Who Killed Batman where Joker actually mourns for Batman's death, and says "There's a certain rhythm to these things. He shows up, we have some laughs, and the game starts all over again. But now he's really not coming. Without Batman crime has no punchline". Then he holds a funeral for Batman and even sheds a tear.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The line between love and hate is extremely thin
I can understand Joker feeling that way about him.

It's just Batman that people can't understand potentially feeling the same way? Would be weird if he did.

 

[zenith16]

The line between love and hate is extremely thin
I can understand Joker feeling that way about him.

It's just Batman that people can't understand potentially feeling the same way? Would be weird if he did.

most people feel that way cause its like most case's with serial killers or someone like the joker it's not a normal feeling. You want them stopped but anything more is weird well unless you know how they became the way they are and they are possibly victimes other wise ...


it just wrong on certain levels especially if that person has harmed you or someone you care about. Or your the protecting the city from him being your job as a cop , fed or Batman.

 

[craigdbfan]

There is more to it than just hatred. Joker is obsessed with Batman. He loves the challenge he brings him, and often he doesn't want to kill him and keeps him around for fun because he thinks without Batman life would be boring;

As you well know The Dark Knight heavily touched on this as the basis of the Batman/Joker relationship;

"I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you, go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, NO!!! No you... you complete ME!"

"I had a vision of a world without Batman. The mob ground out a little profit and the Police tried to shut them down one block at a time, and it was so BORING!".

"You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun"

Even BTAS touched on this in the episode, The Man Who Killed Batman where Joker actually mourns for Batman's death, and says "There's a certain rhythm to these things. He shows up, we have some laughs, and the game starts all over again. But now he's really not coming. Without Batman crime has no punchline". Then he holds a funeral for Batman and even sheds a tear.

Well said Joker.

Batman existing feeds into the Jokers delusion of grandeur. They give his crimes a sense of grandiosity that the police would never be able to fill in and in that he see's purpose.

Wayne however shouldn't feel this kindred feeling for the Joker who is by all means a very dangerous individual and someone that Batman should always in my view want to see incarcerated and away from the public. That's it.

Batman's goal in the purest sense is to preserve and maintain life at normal for the citizens at Gotham. He would rather not see Joker die but that doesn't mean he would mourn the guy if he were to die. The obsession like The Joker (the poster) clearly showed is very one sided.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Doesn't sound mournful to me. He's just saying someone died on his watch, and he won't lose anyone else.

Well, he does say it while staring in a dark abyss in the Bat-Cave. He didn't want The Joker to die... the same way the Arkham Batman didn't want The Joker to die.

I just feel that Batman has an almost pathological need to save people. Rocksteady may have have exaggerated the whole concept, but I dpn't think Batman bringing the Joker's body out of the theatre is so out of character.

 

[Drz]

It is considering he could have picked Talia instead.

Morrison at least had Batman throw Joker's body to the carbage.