Batman Begins Batman Begins .VS. Mask of the Phantasm

[Superwoman Prime]

+ Ra's Al Ghul in name only?

Being more of a solid gray area, rather than an actual complaint, I will remind everyone here yet again that I liked Batman Begins. A unique take on a villain just made the movie weaker. That is my theory. This is one of those plot devices that makes me seiously wonder ... 'why'?

Why was Ra's Al Ghul the one who trained Bruce Wayne? People who say that Batman Begins is very close to the comics, seem to forget the radical changes it brings to the canon. Changes are good, yes. However if an entire character is remolded, I want to know why. That question was never really answered. Nolan never made clear to me why it was Ra's Al Ghul who taught Batman his skills.

Ole Demon's Head in the comics seemed to be the villain that Batman met later in his career, when all villains seemed to be nailed down. Batman knew their style, how they worked, and had matched wits with every single one of them. Ra's coming along was a way of letting Batman know: Hey! There are still villains hidden in the shadows. Villains that can still give you a run for your money! On a personal basis, in my vision of Batman, Ra's needs to be saved for later. To throw Batman off course. Right when Batman thinks he has mastered the psyche of the criminal mind... POW!

Wasn't that the purpose of Ra's in the comics?

In Batman Begins, Ra's was at the very beginning. He was there even before Batman existed. This really isn't a bad thing, so much as a strange thing. Ra's Al Ghul should have been saved for the last movie in the trilogy; that is my opinion.

+ Extreme Close-Ups of Batman righteously kicking arse.

Nolan did this on purpose; he did this with the intent of stressing how fast and blurry Batman was while fighting. I'm trusting enough to believe it was on purpose, yes; I'm not shallow enough to go around claiming that he was just a sucky director, and that he made up an excuse later on.

My nitpick is that this technique was used to the point of being excessive. For a few minutes, I really wanted to see Batman, clearly, dishing out ninjistu (sp?) moves. The fact it was a blur almost in every instance, only left me feeling nauseated, rather than amazed at Batman's agile quickness.

Who is Batman when we can't see what he is doing? A realistic Batman, yes. A believable Batman, yes. A Batman that actually can and does move with such a know-how and expertise that we are left far behind in the dust. However, for the sake of the MOVIE, it needed to be stepped down a few notches.

+ In which Batman Begins gets due praise. (amongst more complaining)

Christian Bale was a fantastic choice; there is no going against that fact. The flaws in this movie don't stem from him, so much as they stem from flawed writing in the script. For the sequel, The Dark Knight, I truly want Bale to say something to Nolan about the tone/inflection. Instead of thinking Batman has onsetting tuberculosis, I just want his voice to be dark instead.

The suit in this movie, although a true improvement from the Burton days, still needs working on. More flexibility, a bat logo that is smaller and more visible... and have the cape slide into the collar of the torso armor, instead of being clasped out in the open.

The Tumbler is an automobile any true male wants to have. The performance in Batman Begins with the driving, zooming from rooftops, and destroying thousands of property dollars, was actually entertaining, and I have no place to complain about that. One request I have of Nolan is to make it more resemble the classic Batmobile. Even if only a LITTLE resemblance... and then I shall be very happy indeed.


+ Room for improvement means... an utterly amazing Dark Knight.

Bale himself says the sequal will be an improvement over an already great movie. Batman Begins was the live-action movie we were all looking for. It was the live-action movie I was looking for, my friends. Did it fail me completely? No.


All this room for improvement, means that Dark Knight is hopefully going to be THE best Batman movie. My wish is that it actually surpasses Mask of the Phantasm. Is that going to be difficult, though? You better believe it will be.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

+ Ra's Al Ghul in name only?

Being more of a solid gray area, rather than an actual complaint, I will remind everyone here yet again that I liked Batman Begins. A unique take on a villain just made the movie weaker. That is my theory. This is one of those plot devices that makes me seiously wonder ... 'why'?

Why was Ra's Al Ghul the one who trained Bruce Wayne? People who say that Batman Begins is very close to the comics, seem to forget the radical changes it brings to the canon. Changes are good, yes. However if an entire enough to go around claiming that he was just a sucky director, and that he made up an excuse later on.

Ras worked very well within the context of the movie. He is a departure from the comic version. My thoughts at first were, "Why don't you just make Bin Laden the villain, as that's who Ras represents?"

+ Extreme Close-Ups of Batman righteously kicking arse.

My nitpick is that this technique was used to the point of being excessive. For a few minutes, I really wanted to see Batman, clearly, dishing out ninjistu (sp?) moves. The fact it was a blur almost in every instance, only left me feeling nauseated, rather than amazed at Batman's agile quickness.

Who is Batman when we can't see what he is doing? A realistic Batman, yes. A believable Batman, yes. A Batman that actually can and does move with such a know-how and expertise that we are left far behind in the dust. However, for the sake of the MOVIE, it needed to be stepped down a few notches.

I agree here. Nolan's technique works when he's showing Batman taking down loads of Falcone's thugs in that one shot, intercut with Falcone in the car. That's all we needed of that approach, it told us everything. When Batman fights at the climax, however, the audience needs to be able to see what is happening to be excited. If Batman is in danger, we need to see that. That's a pretty simple rule of action movies.

+ In which Batman Begins gets due praise. (amongst more complaining)

Christian Bale was a fantastic choice; there is no going against that fact. The flaws in this movie don't stem from him, so much as they stem from flawed writing in the script. For the sequel, The Dark Knight, I truly want Bale to say something to Nolan about the tone/inflection. Instead of thinking Batman has onsetting tuberculosis, I just want his voice to be dark instead.

The suit in this movie, although a true improvement from the Burton days, still needs working on. More flexibility, a bat logo that is smaller and more visible... and have the cape slide into the collar of the torso armor, instead of being clasped out in the open.

That's just personal preference, not something that would add or detract from the movie itself.

The Tumbler is an automobile any true male wants to have. The performance in Batman Begins with the driving, zooming from rooftops, and destroying thousands of property dollars, was actually entertaining, and I have no place to complain about that. One request I have of Nolan is to make it more resemble the classic Batmobile. Even if only a LITTLE resemblance... and then I shall be very happy indeed.

Which (or what) is the classic Batmobile? The Tumber is big, black, powerful and is a weird shape. I don't think sticking bat shaped fins on the back would really add anything. In the context of the story, it would be illogical.

Come on, this is all minor stuff. I want to hear your major arguments.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

It is only assumed that Batman eventually can/did clear his name, though nothing in the actual movie makes it so.

I dunno, though.....I suppose it's how you take it. If you see the film as a stand alone....then it messed up by leaving that unfinished. But, if you see it as canon with the rest of Timmverse.....then I guess it's okay b/c we do see things in the aftermath of sorts....even though the Phantasm thing is only tackled once in the rest of Timmverse.

That is something that helps make the last part even more powerful:

* He lost Andrea, again, this time permanently.

Yes. It was powerful. Especially when he was at the cave, and Alfred comforts him.

* A few of Gotham's largest crime bosses are dead and gone. (The Joker is up for debate about death. Personally, to me, the Joker did die at the hand of the Phantasm.) There was a deleted scene in the movie where the Joker is shown escaping; but it didn't make it into the final cut, therefore isn't really canon to the movie. So Batman isn't taking the break he know he deserves.

Well, in a way....the film is canon. So, I guess I'm of the side that knows Joker survived.

* Most Gotham PD hates him. Many citizens of Gotham believe he is a sadistic criminal.

Yet, what does Batman do?


He stands up tall and proud, and swoops away into the night that he is one with.

I dunno, kinda irks me. It does somewhat remind me of BR, where I cannot remember Batman cleaning his name.

That's why at an angle, this has to be approached as a stand-alone movie. If we take BTAS into account then yes, the Joker did escape. If we take MOTP as a singular movie about Batman, then there is a strong hint the Joker did die.

My view of things, anyway.

Well, that's the thing. Really, you can take it anyway you want.

But, I believe MOTP was brought back in continuity last year with JLU.

 

[Fenrir]

Let me admit ahead of time, MOTP has superior dialogue to BB. And the best part? MOTP is devoid of slap-in-the-face cliches.

"Your angel of death awaits" - yeah, like we haven't heard the likes of this from a million other villains before already. And we get to hear it four times more in this film.

"I want you Chuckie-boy" - what is the Phantasm supposed to be, a grade-schooler with such slapstick one-liners?

"It's the stinking bat!" - if you want me to tell you what the hell is wrong with this line, then you're a lost cause and arguing with you is only a pointless exercise in futility.

"Better have your insurance paid up, sucker" - more one-liners...

"This time tomorrow you'll have the money or I'll have your heart in my hand" - I didn't know mobsters were into voodoo rituals. Guess thanks are in order to MOTP for enlightening me with it's inappropriate dialogue.

"You still love each other?" "It's true...I love her" - I'm sure there are at least 50 different ways that line could have been phrased better".


Speaking of cliches, revenge being the primary motivator behind a series of killings is one of the most predictable and over-used tools in storytelling. Which is why the revelation of the Phantasm was...underwhelming, to say the least.

If we're being fair here, let's also consider the fact that MOTP is progressively worse in the one area Begins gets a lot of flak for around here - action. I always cringe whenever I see that scene in which Batman jumps off a building while the police are pursuing him, only to fall flat on the concrete like some amateur instead of using his grappe hook or landing gracefully using his cape.

And while we're on the subject, purists whine and cry about the changes that were made to Ra's (and even Bruce's) character but I have yet to see anyone complain that Bruce being compelled to break his vow even before he starts his quest for justice simply because he fell in love in MOTP as being "out-of-character".

Mask of the Phantasm is an excellent depiction of the Dark Knight, but it has it's own fair share of problems (other than what I have listed already) which go overlooked by fanboys simply because of it's "cult-classic" status whereas at the same time, Begins, being the more popular cousin, recieves a comparitively harsher treatment. Ultimately, I don't believe MOTP is significantly superior to BB in any way, for both films have their respective strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

"Your angel of death awaits" - yeah, like we haven't heard the likes of this from a million other villains before already. And we get to hear it four times more in this film.

I love that line.

"It's the stinking bat!" - if you want me to tell you what the hell is wrong with this line, then you're a lost cause and arguing with you is only a pointless exercise in futility.

Agreed, that's such a saturday morning cartoon line! They can't use anything even approaching a swear word, so they fall back on words like 'stinki''. Lame.

If we're being fair here, let's also consider the fact that MOTP is progressively worse in the one area Begins gets a lot of flak for around here - action. I always cringe whenever I see that scene in which Batman jumps off a building while the police are pursuing him, only to fall flat on the concrete like some amateur instead of using his grappe hook or landing gracefully using his cape.

It's very hard to create exciting action scenes in animation. You just cannot convince yourself that real lives are in danger, whereas with live-action it's usually easy enough to suspend disbelief.

And while we're on the subject, purists whine and cry about the changes that were made to Ra's (and even Bruce's) character but I have yet to see anyone complain that Bruce being compelled to break his vow even before he starts his quest for justice simply because he fell in love in MOTP as being "out-of-character".

Good point, well made. But surely it ultimately illustrates Bruce's dedication to the cause that he never gives it up, no matter what? What could be a greater obstacle for him to overcome but love (now there's a cliche for you)?

Mask of the Phantasm is an excellent depiction of the Dark Knight, but it has it's own fair share of problems (other than what I have listed already) which go overlooked by fanboys simply because of it's "cult-classic" status whereas at the same time, Begins, being the more popular cousin, recieves a comparitively harsher treatment. Ultimately, I don't believe MOTP is significantly superior to BB in any way, for both films have their respective strengths and weaknesses that balance each other out.

Agreed. Plus, Mask of the Phantasm is unbalanced by the Joker being forced into a narrative which doesn't require him. The Phantasm as the only villain would have worked better. Bruce fighting a woman he loves would be the perfect illustration of his 'love vs commitment to justice' internal struggle. He loves her, but he's fighting her because of his obsession with fighting all forms of crime. Then ending with Bruce at his parent's grave, telling them he put Andrea in prison for them, would be completely heartbreaking and, to me, would make Phantasm stand out in the way you say it does.

 

[dude stannis]

The line had extra relevence because it was literally true; it was fear itself, caused by the fear gas, that was causing all the chaos.

Technically it was the Toxin, so the line should've been...

"There's nothing to fear but, my gas."

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Technically it was the Toxin, so the line should've been...

"There's nothing to fear but, my gas."

Classy.

 

[Dark Guardian]

I'm sorry but Mask of the Phantasm will always be better than any movie anybody can make. Its just so very true to the comics, almost perfect in fact. Oh wait...IT IS PERFECT.
And beside from that, its storyline is just one of the best in history. The creative genius of Paul Dini and Bruce Timm was just at its peak for this film, and its REALLY, REALLY hard to make something as good afterwards.
Batman Begins was great. And if we were rating only Live Action movies, it would be the best, but Mask of The Phantasm just has that extra bit that makes it priceless.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Mask of the Phantasm is many times greater than BB, much more stylistic, better story, better villain's scheme, all round, better.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno about that. I'd say Batman Begins and Mask of the Phantasm are about even when it comes to "true to the comics". Batman Begins might be more true to the comics b/c of it's homages.

I kinda felt that the Joker was underused really. He could have done more. I do think Batman Begins had a better story and better pacing. I think the placement of the flashbacks did kinda take me out of the story itself as it seemed to progress.

I think it's simple though. Batman Mask of the Phantasm can get away with more stuff b/c there's less people paying attention to it. Less people judging every single little detail and aspect. And, in that way....people are less harsh with it.

Some of the "corny" lines in Batman Begins were actually taken from BTAS.....which is probably the singles greatest animated series to ever be made. The line, "Taste of your own medicine, doctor?" was taken DIRECTLY from the Scarecrow's debut episode. Even the Bat-Demon, and Crane being affected by the Fear Toxin. Those things NEVER....NEVER.....ever, got crap for being in the cartoon. Infact, it added to it's portrayal of the comic book character being shown. But, the movie does it.....all of a sudden, it's like the writers came with it out of no where. Atleast, that's what some idiots would have you believe...and so they critcize it without knowing a thing.

Sigh....kinda funny when you think about it.

Btw, JLU did show The Phantasm.....and Andrea at that, as a much older lady doing Hitman work. Thought that was kinda cool, and it does bring MOTP in continuity.

 

[El Payaso]

Batman Begina

Mother of God, I cringed before the sound of it.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hey, it's spanish. For Batman Begins. Okay?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

And beside from that, its storyline is just one of the best in history.

Seriously?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah.....It's storyline? What's that mean exactly....? Like the premise itself or the timeline it follows (like present-flashback-present-flashback-present)?