Batman Forever

[SHADOWBAT69]

In comparison to B&R, Batman Forever was that bad. Yeah, there were alot of corny bits - but it still retained some of its darker themes. I think th major let-down was the completely unrealistic plot involving the creation of some ridiculous television device that supposedly steals the knowledge from the people of Gotham.

I thought that's what watching too much television did.

 

[Mr. Socko]

He went from being black to half white and half purple! That was some hella strong acid!

 

[Nightwing1977]

He went from being black to half white and half purple! That was some hella strong acid!

I wonder if he has acid reflux too. He is too purple to have it just from acid.

 

[Lando]

I :heart: Batman Forever + Huckabees.

 

[I Am The Knight]

The Red Book subplot explains why Bruce really became Batman. It also explains why his psychological condition worsened after he got his revenge on Jack Napier.

We learn in the script and the original cut of Batman Forever that the reason Bruce became Batman is because he believed that he was responsible for his parents' death. At their wake, young Bruce read the last entry in his father's journal which said, Bruce insists on seeing a movie tonight. Young Bruce was horrifed by what he read and that's why he ran out into the storm. This led to his encounter with the bat in the cave.

Bruce associated that moment of terror with the image of the bat. So he became Batman as an act of penance. A way to show sorrow for "killing" his dear parents. That's why he could never find closure after getting revenge on the gunman. That's why he could never let go of Batman. Being Batman appeared to be a curse. Not a choice. He was putting on the cowl because he had to. As a punishment for his sin. Not because he wanted to.

But after rediscovering the journal later in the story, Bruce learns that their death was not his fault at all. He didn’t read the rest of the entry when he was a boy. The last sentence says, But Martha and I have our hearts set on Zorro, so Bruce's cartoon will have to wait until next week.

This revelation leads to Bruce’s redemption. Now no longer tormented by his past, Bruce realizes that being Batman is a choice. Not a curse. So he chooses to be Batman forever rather than retire. He has finally made peace with his past but is still driven by the need to fight injustice.

This is a great post. The red book subplot was actually interesting, and I wish we had seen the whole thing on the theatrical cut.

Batman Forever is actually watchable for me, I even have a special kind of...Love for it...But it has more to do with nostalgia and that whole era, rather than the movie's quality. I don't even own it. But I think I will eventually.

 

[Bat Attack]

I love watching Batman Forever. I think it's mindless entertainment.

 

[Nighthawk_Fan]

I can sit and watch Forever, but not Batman & Robin. Well, Batman & Robin is pretty funny though.

 

[Punishment]

Same here i dont perticulary like Batman Forever but i can still watch it but with Batman And Robin i wouldnt even try to watch it.
by the end of it i would be ripping out my own eye balls just to throw something at the screen

 

[The Empire Ape]

Same here i dont perticulary like Batman Forever but i can still watch it but with Batman And Robin i wouldnt even try to watch it.
by the end of it i would be ripping out my own eye balls just to throw something at the screen

Funny. People always say how bad B&R is, but I prefer it to Batman Forever. I appreciate Val Kilmer's Batman portrayal - you know, more heroic and human ("Harvey, you need help!" and so on) but I simply cannot stand Two-Face and Gayddler. And watching B&R makes me cringe sometimes, but I am never bored. It's entertaining and insane.

 

[chamber-music]

 

[Mr.E.Nygma]

This is a great post. The red book subplot was actually interesting, and I wish we had seen the whole thing on the theatrical cut.

Batman Forever is actually watchable for me, I even have a special kind of...Love for it...But it has more to do with nostalgia and that whole era, rather than the movie's quality.

As I said above, the Red Book fan edition of BF restore this subplot, thus making the movie stronger. he cuts crap a some parts. Desaturate the neon headache Gotham. I suggest it to you, I only watch this version now, it's a dream-like good Batman Forever!

I kinda like the original cut like you, you nailed the reason right! Plus Jim Carrey is one of my favorite actors, so yeah, BF is enjoyable

 

[Kevin Roegele]

"My advice, man? Only do one comicbook flick. The suit they made me wear was hell."
"I think mine will probably be worse."
"Your's got nipples?"
"No, but if it did, I could tune them in to radio stations."

 

[悪魔天]

Watching it now after so many years of not seeing it...Last time I saw it was in theaters. Wow...is all I have to say.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Watching it now after so many years of not seeing it...Last time I saw it was in theaters. Wow...is all I have to say.

Do you like it or not?

 

[Noir]

"My advice, man? Only do one comicbook flick. The suit they made me wear was hell."
"I think mine will probably be worse."
"Your's got nipples?"
"No, but if it did, I could tune them in to radio stations."

I loled.

 

[StylishHokie21]

He went from being black to half white and half purple! That was some hella strong acid!

This made me laugh.

 

[StylishHokie21]

Haha! What the hell happened to Val? He wouldn't be able to fit in his nipple suit now.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Haha! What the hell happened to Val? He wouldn't be able to fit in his nipple suit now.

Ha! Well, that's good!

 

[Noir]

No way! I just watched Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and he looked ten times younger and fitter.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I loved that movie, Kilmer was great. But in now way did he look 10x fitter.

 

[Noir]

I loved that movie, Kilmer was great. But in now way did he look 10x fitter.

I believe he looked 10x fitter than that picture.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Oh God you win

 

[The Joker]

Forever had some good qualities. Kilmer was quite good as both Batman and Bruce Wayne. Alfred was great, especially in his scenes with Dick Grayson. Chase Meridian was a good love interest who served a purpose to the story. Bruce coming to terms with some of his inner demons was also good.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Forever had some good qualities. Kilmer was quite good as both Batman and Bruce Wayne. Alfred was great, especially in his scenes with Dick Grayson. Chase Meridian was a good love interest who served a purpose to the story. Bruce coming to terms with some of his inner demons was also good.

I love many elements of Forever. The way Dick Grayson's story arc is handled is far better and more serious than probably anybody expected. Robin himself is a perfect combination of the three (main) comicbook versions of the character. The background and tragedy of Grayson, the anger and rebellion of Jason Todd, and the streetwise attitude and costume of Tim Drake.

To eleborate, much of the movie is taken from comics, more than many people realise I feel. In the comics, Two-Face does kill Todd's father. Todd later has Two-Face at his mercy, and we think he may kill him, but decides to let him live - in prison.

And if you read the TPB A Lonely Place of Dying, you'll find a huge source of where Forever came from. Tim Drake is so determined to help Batman that he dresses in the original Robin costume and rescues Batman from a cave-in that Two-Face trapped him in! Batman refuses Drake's help, but eventually gives in.

Just as intresting is that Schumacher and co did develop Robin into the Nightwing persona in B&R. He takes the costume, he even goes solo for a while.

In fact, the two Schumacher movies go through most of Robin's mythology. Unfortunetly the same can't be said for Batman. Forever 'cures' Bruce Wayne, and B&R teaches Bruce to care about his living family rather than his dead one. Not a bad idea per se, but it's hardly the kind of epic character issues that should be in a movie (such as becoming a hero, giving up being a hero to live with the girl you love, or turning into a bad guy).

 

[Webhead38]

A great thread and some interesting thoughts about both BF and BR. I just recently watched both movies with director comments playing and I found some interesting insights, if not down right contradictions from Schumacher's own reflections. I truly feel inclined to make more references to B&R because besides the film being impossibly bad, I thought the director completely copped out on his reasoning for the film's direction. If ever there is a textbook example of passing the blame for a franchise killing sequel, this is the one everyone should listen to.

By Schumacher's accounts, Batman and Robin was essentially a vehicle to manufacture toys since the studio directed him to give the film a more "toy-etic" look. Wow. What a revelation...A superhero film inspired to sell toys? Never heard of that (give me a break). He goes on to indicate that toy companies were brought in to more or less be part of the design team for the overall look of the film. Now, after saying all of this, he wants everyone to know he is NOT blaming the studio or anyone else for these decisions (RIGHT). He quickly takes the blame and says he understood the film he was making but felt he was still recognizing key storylines and paying proper respect to the character and supporting cast. A fair explanation from his perspective... or is it?

With this overview firmly in place the film is only twenty minutes old and that's when the truth of how he really feels begins to show itself. Virtually every scene that he describes is all but mocked and joked about. "Ew! Robin is walking into Ivy's lair. Aren't you scared?" or "These movies are not really about the actors, but more about the costumes." After about an hour of condescending comments like this you begin to realize that Schumacher truly has little respect for the source material or the fans that follow it. He says he takes responsibility for the movie and even apologizes at one point, yet repeatedly references the decisions of others that influenced the look, thereby reducing the blame from himself. He then takes a personal shot at anyone who didn't like the film by saying, "For those of you who believe our careers were destroyed by this picture, I can assure you we all went on to bigger and better things, inspite of this." It's truly the last nail in the coffin regarding his feeling about the character and fans.

Those remarks truly anchor themselves back to Batman Forever, because with that film, director and cast were having to pay a degree of respect to the Keaton films, plus the studio and vendors were less enthusiastic about the possible fortunes of that installment, so his overall expression was not on display. With B&R he had complete say with it's direction and I think that really says it all for both films. His treatment, those comments, and this underlying disregard for the source material are all on display in both pictures. It clearly explains the dumbed down dialog like "I want a car! Chicks dig the car!" or "I'm tired of living under your shadow. I want my own signal! I want a Robin signal!" It doesn't take alot of insight to hear lines like that, let alone read them on paper to understand neither the director or writer were concerned with the IQ of their audience. Comments by both director and writer clearly reveal their only concern was provocative outfits, big overlit sets, and a uncommon reliance on neon paint to cover cheap sets. Big, dumb, and loud was their scheme. History has shown they got away with it once, but paid dearly and permanently the second time around.

In closing I truly think Burton had made a much better film than audiences gave him credit when he delivered Batman Returns. Audiences may not have been ready for the dark, disturbed vision that he gave to the villians, but in retrospect it fits them very well by today's standards. From many accounts Batman Returns has found a sizable audience over time and is now considered a favorite in the series. The success of 'Batman Forever' was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction from the unexpected dark themes found in Returns. Audiences went to an opposite extreme to balance the taste left from the previous installment...and they got it. But as time has passed, it's substance that survives and that's why Forever and B&R are seen as the same film, even though one enjoyed some box office success while the other delivered a lesson this franchise and many others have paid close attention to - RESPECT THE MATERIAL. Is it any accident that the next film in this series was entitled, "Batman Begins" to reassure audiences, it has no affiliation with it's predecessor?