Batman Forever gets unfairly paired with Batman and Robin

[Chris Wallace]

Its Burton doing one quintessentially burtonesque movie, filled with monsters, nightmare fuel, grimdark, and some crazy plot, but with batman characters running around.

I agree fully.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Burton made a movie and called it Batman Returns... so sue him!

He was no more unfaithful to the character than anyone else could and has been.

Batman returns is just a Tim Burton movie.

The Dark Knight is just a Christopher Nolan movie.

Simple.

 

[Brother Jack]

Yeah, that's not true. Nolan was able to balance his own vision with the established mythos of the comics, Burton, especially with Returns, was only really able to do the former. But still, I quite like Batman Returns for precisely that reason. It's a good Burton movie, not a good Batman movie (at least going by the comics).

 

[The Joker]

Returns is leaps and bounds better than Forever. Both Burton movies are, IMO.

Forever only has the scenes with Bruce and Chase, Bruce and Dick, and Dick and Alfred going for it. Apart from that, it's a pretty bad movie.

Jim Carey was just being Jim Carey in a green question mark costume. He was waaaaaaaay too OTT. And the less said about Tommy Lee Jones' Two Face, the better.

The two of them spend the movie trying to out ham eachother. Adam West's Batman villains in the 60's spin off movie were more menacing than these two.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea but Forever is NO WHERE NEAR the level of Batman and Robin. And anyone who thinks so needs a slap with a big wet fish!

The characterization of Bruce Wayne in Forever is probably the best in ANY Batman movie. Apart from Begins maybe.

 

[James222]

Ya know forever is a bit campy but it's no where near as horrible as B&R. In fact i find forever more enjoyable then TDK(call me crazy) But tdk i felt was a bit of a let down, it was pretty coasty threw the entire movie and quite full of itself, honestly the trailers were better then the movie and also a bit mis leading, BB was deffinatly better. But anyway forever is quite good, a few flaws yes but quite enjoyable haha.

 

[El Payaso]

Bat-butts, neon, lame villiains and bad jokes put BF somewhere near B&R. I agree, not the same though.

 

[Mr. Earle]

So how did you guys like the sonar suit? Back in the day i loved it. Now... not so much. 1000 times better than the TDK one, that's for sure.

 

[Travesty]

So how did you guys like the sonar suit? Back in the day i loved it. Now... not so much. 1000 times better than the TDK one, that's for sure.

Yeah, when I was younger, I thought it was alright, but I still liked the original panther-suit better. And yes, the sonar-suit looks much better then TDK-suit.

 

[El Payaso]

So how did you guys like the sonar suit? Back in the day i loved it. Now... not so much. 1000 times better than the TDK one, that's for sure.

What scares me is that the sonar suit looks very much like the BB-TDK (first apparition) suit.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

The panther suit is still the best suit IMO. Minus the Bat-nipples obviously

 

[Brother Jack]

The panther suit is still the best suit IMO. Minus the Bat-nipples obviously

Absolutely not.

Sure Batman Forever isn't as bad as Batman & Robin, but that's sort of like saying getting shot in the stomach is better than getting shot in the face. Either way, it's going to hurt.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea well like I said, the characterization of Bruce in Forever is better than any other Batman movie, apart from Begins but that's to be expected considering it's a bonafide origin movie.

I mean in Forever he actually displayed some raw intelligence and detective skills rather than relying on Fox, Alfred or some computer.

Plus the scene where he is arguing with Dick about revenge and what it does to a man is one of the best scenes in any Batman movie ever. It was PURE 100% Bruce Wayne/Batman.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yea well like I said, the characterization of Bruce in Forever is better than any other Batman movie, apart from Begins but that's to be expected considering it's a bonafide origin movie.

I mean in Forever he actually displayed some raw intelligence and detective skills rather than relying on Fox, Alfred or some computer.

Plus the scene where he is arguing with Dick about revenge and what it does to a man is one of the best scenes in any Batman movie ever. It was PURE 100% Bruce Wayne/Batman.

I dont know if i could call it the best characterization, but its certainly better than Burton's 2D Batman. Yeah i went there!

And yeah the panther suit is pretty sweat. The masculature is a bit like a greek statue and it has nipples, but overall it was pretty good. I specifically liked how cape and cowl would bond in this fashion (instead of Burton's bat scallops):

(its the back view)

I do like the Nolan cape, but i'd rather if cape and cowl are one, either by erasing the seam with CGI or attaching them with Schumi's solution. Also, since batman is wearing rubber, sometimes the cloth cape felt like a blanket around him. Maybe a rubber cape isnt so bad after all.

 

[Brother Jack]

Yea well like I said, the characterization of Bruce in Forever is better than any other Batman movie, apart from Begins but that's to be expected considering it's a bonafide origin movie.

Kilmer came off mostly as flat and uninteresting to me. He wasn't able to brood properly. Most of Wayne's character development was actually cut from the movie, and what is left for the most part doesn't go anywhere.

I mean in Forever he actually displayed some raw intelligence and detective skills rather than relying on Fox, Alfred or some computer.

He solved some riddles. That was about it.

Plus the scene where he is arguing with Dick about revenge and what it does to a man is one of the best scenes in any Batman movie ever. It was PURE 100% Bruce Wayne/Batman.

The words themselves were good, but again, Kilmer didn't do a whole lot with them. Plus Chris O'Donell's "rebellious" Dick Grayson hurts every scene he's in.

All that being said, I will give credit where credit is due. The "because I choose to" scene when Batman approaches a defeated Riddler and Riddler sees a vision of the giant bat-creature, is great.

 

[baerrtt]

Kilmer doesn't come across as interesting whatsover in the role and given his talent as an actor I wish the script, well his part, had been written better even though Kilmer on the BF SE dvd claims he liked the screenplay.

It may have been far from the traditional idea of Bruce Wayne (hence why some still criticise Bruton's era till this day) but at least Keaton gave us something far more notable whilst being overshadowed in both his films.

 

[The Joker]

Kilmer doesn't come across as interesting whatsover in the role and given his talent as an actor I wish the script, well his part, had been written better even though Kilmer on the BF SE dvd claims he liked the screenplay.

I somewhat agree with this. He was rather bland in the role. He looked the part for sure, but he didn't light the screen on fire with his performance. Other characters brought out the best in the character's scenes, like Alfred, Dick, and Chase.

 

[El Payaso]

That's the thing. The script might have been accurate to Bruce Wayne but Kilmer, while enjoyable (at least to me) did not give a particularly brilliant performance.

 

[The Joker]

Nobody in Forever did. Michael Gough as Alfred was the best actor in the movie, IMO. He was consistently great in all four movies.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Nobody in Forever did. Michael Gough as Alfred was the best actor in the movie, IMO. He was consistently great in all four movies.

But he cancelled the pizzas!

 

[david icke]

But he cancelled the pizzas!

lol, I can imagine a pizza delivery guy halfway out the city making yet another delivery to Wayne Manor and being told for the umpteenth time just to cancel the order.

I can't compre B&R to BF at all really, I got plenty of replay value out of BF, god knows how many times i watched that movie, whereas with B&R, there are very few times I've actually watched the whole movie. I only watched it all the way through back after it had just been released on video, and was just desperate for more Batman movie material, so would sit there trying to no-prize all the crazy stupid decisions and enjoy the film somehow.
eg How did they know they would need bat-ice skate boots when they only found out it was a guy called MrFreeze they were facing on the way to the gig?
Maybe they had the boots in the boot of the batmobile, and stopped on the wya to change, and got so caught up in the battle they forgot to activate them straight away, absolute crap like that.

I knew BF was nowhere near what a Batman movie could be, but for me it felt closer to the characters of the comics than any of the 89-97 films, so I enjoyed it the most. Heck, even just seeing Two-Face in the flesh for the first time was a major kick. Before BTAS, and stories like 'Faces' etc in the 90s, he always was a bit of a mad cackler in the books, so his manner didn't bother me as much as it did for some people.
and Carrey was really enjoying himself, it's fun to watch someone really having a ball onscreen, and knowing it was a dream role of sorts for him.

Kilmer I really liked in the role, and he and O'Donnell matched up well with what they were trying to do, it was also a big kick to see a pretty good Grayson origin, the circus scene was brilliant.

 

[Cain]

lol, I can imagine a pizza delivery guy halfway out the city making yet another delivery to Wayne Manor and being told for the umpteenth time just to cancel the order.

I can't compre B&R to BF at all really, I got plenty of replay value out of BF, god knows how many times i watched that movie, whereas with B&R, there are very few times I've actually watched the whole movie. I only watched it all the way through back after it had just been released on video, and was just desperate for more Batman movie material, so would sit there trying to no-prize all the crazy stupid decisions and enjoy the film somehow.
eg How did they know they would need bat-ice skate boots when they only found out it was a guy called MrFreeze they were facing on the way to the gig?
Maybe they had the boots in the boot of the batmobile, and stopped on the wya to change, and got so caught up in the battle they forgot to activate them straight away, absolute crap like that.

I knew BF was nowhere near what a Batman movie could be, but for me it felt closer to the characters of the comics than any of the 89-97 films, so I enjoyed it the most. Heck, even just seeing Two-Face in the flesh for the first time was a major kick. Before BTAS, and stories like 'Faces' etc in the 90s, he always was a bit of a mad cackler in the books, so his manner didn't bother me as much as it did for some people.
and Carrey was really enjoying himself, it's fun to watch someone really having a ball onscreen, and knowing it was a dream role of sorts for him.

Kilmer I really liked in the role, and he and O'Donnell matched up well with what they were trying to do, it was also a big kick to see a pretty good Grayson origin, the circus scene was brilliant.

Wrong! perhaps maybe you just started to read comic books in the 90's I don't know you so obviously I don't know but he was more "serious" even way before faces hell as far back as when he was brought back in the 70's actually. In any case Harvey Kent from the golden and silver age was more of a cackler than Dent so was the other Two-Face Paul Sloane. That's beside the point though by the mid 90's Two-Face was already established as Batman's most psychologically interesting foe since it was an ally turned enemy.

There was no need for the crap in this movie Jones just did it because he wanted to keep up with Carrey's over the top overacting and did not want to be outshined, it was all ego and not a tribute to an earlier incarnation of the character.

The villains in this movie are horrendous and truly take away from it all. I could only watch this for Bruce Wayne/Batman really and even that isn't all THAT great but I've enjoyed that incarnation of those characters better than the ones in any other movie Burton or Nolan. That's probably the nicest thing I could say about Batman Forever really.

 

[david icke]

Wrong! perhaps maybe you just started to read comic books in the 90's I don't know you so obviously I don't know but he was more "serious" even way before faces hell as far back as when he was brought back in the 70's actually. In any case Harvey Kent from the golden and silver age was more of a cackler than Dent so was the other Two-Face Paul Sloane. That's beside the point though by the mid 90's Two-Face was already established as Batman's most psychologically interesting foe since it was an ally turned enemy.

Nope, not completely wrong my friend, allow me to clarify my point.

I said 'a bit' of a cackler, not an out and out cackler.

In the stories of the 70s and 80s Two-Face could go into a cackle if the writer wanted him to, he does go there. Like in the classic 2 parter in Batman 314/313(?), from about 1978/9(?) when Batman and Faraday are after him, he goes into a couple of mad laughs here and there.

Yes, he was more serious in this period than in the olden golden silver-y days, but, they still had him as a bit of a maniac who could laugh along with the best of them in some stories.

edit: Ok, I went and looked back at that particular story, in part 2, issue 314, on page 5 he goes into a crazy cackle when someone threatens him 'and the madman's bellowing laughter is terrible indeed!' wish i could post the image.
That is the only out and out cackling he does, but there is a general sense of him smiling and having a good time while he is on this job...he has s big grin on his face. dressed in a cape during a mardi-gras parade, before double crossing folk and flying into the air on a chair attached to a zepplin.
He has a big grin on his face when he outwits Batman and Faraday and escapes through a hidden wall leaving them in a trap.
Point is, there is a general sense of Two-Face having fun in this story that was absent from the later stories, starting in the 90s particularly.
I'd have to dig out som emore old comics to see if there is anymore of this kind of thing, but, I recalled that one because it's one of my fav stories from this period, and Two-Face being a bit barmy and enjoying himself was part of that enjoyment.

But, in the 90s they seemed to remove that aspect completely, in 'Faces'(a very overrated story, but nice artwork), he is a complete po-faced Two-Face, same with other stories of this period, like the one in that Batman annual with the Neal Adams cover(quite a boring Two-Face story as I recall).

They made him a completely serious grim character, and stopped showing how much he enjoyed himself, flipping his coin and laughing away at his own exploits.

edit: For the record, I started getting Batman comics in 1976 and got all the titles BM, B&B, Detective, pretty much on a monthly basis amazingly, in the days before comics specialty stores, when you had to get them from newsagents and toy shops, and they only had one copy in usually. Got them up until '93, with a little break in the years 86-88, and i caught up on some of those back issue style.

There was no need for the crap in this movie Jones just did it because he wanted to keep up with Carrey's over the top overacting and did not want to be outshined, it was all ego and not a tribute to an earlier incarnation of the character.

Well, let's say you were like me, someone who did not read all the stories about that and thought it made sense in the way the story progressed, and the way the actor/s played it...

Have you ever hung out with a new 'best' friend and found that certain attributes that you shared were brought more to the forefront when you both hung out in that first buzz of friendship?
Like, you both share the same sense of humour, see certain things funny in a way that other don't quite see...the kind of things that in fact contribute to the friendship being strong.

Well, this was the way I saw the Two-Face/Riddler friendship when it was just me and the VHS, no opinion of mine being influenced by on-set rumours and chit-chat, that may or may not be true.
A linear progression, that does make sense when you look at it.

Look at the way they begin together, at odds, Two-Face is all serious, angry as his attempts on Batman's life have once again been thwarted. Then Riddler explains his plan, so they team up, the friendship grows as they put their mutally beneficial plan in play as they rock the town together, robbing and having fun, Two Face showing Riddler how to punch a guy.
Then when Riddler does not deliver, Two-Face goes all serious again, showing up at the Nygma tech party, only going into cackle mode as Batman seems to be falling into his trap, exasperated again when Batman refuses to die.
Then, when Riddler delivers, Two-Face is all smiles again, both of them laughing and buddying up as they flick on the video proof of his secret I.D.

and he cackles all the way to the end as he thinks everything is going according to plan, and is enjoying himself with his new super-villan buddy who has enabled him to discover Batman's greatest secret... coming up for a serious breath only when things seem to be going wrong, ie when he thinks Robin is going to push him off the cliff.

so, you see, there was reasons for these 'cackles', not just senseless and random.

Thankyew [/Riddler]

 

[Doc Ock]

I agree that Forever is unfairly paired with Batman and Robin, but it still wasn't good IMO.

 

[Chris Wallace]

So how did you guys like the sonar suit? Back in the day i loved it. Now... not so much. 1000 times better than the TDK one, that's for sure.

It was a little over the top, but I still like it. Could've benefitted from a wrap-around cape.