The Dark Knight Batman: Good Role Model?

The ideal of Batman is something to strive for. Batman's mission at it's very basic form is to help his fellow man. He see's injustice in his world and takes steps to end that. He is also close to the law by having Gordon in his pocket. He can do things that Gordon can't and always has Gordon to pull him back in line.

However, his tactics are questionable. He doesn't trust people fighting the same cause because they do things differently. He creates a bubble of righteous that he can't step from, he is close minded and rules his rost with an Iron Fist.

Bruce Wayne is also not a good role model. Deep down he is till that crying little boy in that alley. He is afraid of life, he doesn't want to embrace it because he's afraid of losing it again. He would rather be safe and alone in a cave than vulerable in real life.
Good point, MJD. His distrustful, controlling, almost totalitarian nature make him extremely difficult to work with. His inability to function in a normal relationship-romantic or otherwise-is just unhealthy. These aren't traits I'd want to see my kids developing.
And let's talk for a minute about how he relates to kids. Nevermind the physical danger he subjects them to on a regular basis. He shouldn't encourage any child to go down the same path he's taken. And yet he does it, time & time again. He brings them into his world of dress-up & make-believe, indulges their fantasies & denies them any semblance of a normal life. He's teaching them to hide from their pain, not cope with it. He's not helping them; he's screwing them up further. (Look at Jason Todd if you want to argue.) It also doesn't help that he's never had a stable woman in his life. Yet he keeps trying to raise children without one. A boy needs a mother as well as a father, especially if his father figure feels that dressing up like animals & punching people is the best way to solve your problems. In real life, if you saw a bachelor take a kid into his care & parade him around in a mask, barking orders at him & once again, ENDANGERING HIS LIFE, you'd petition the court to take the kid away. And you'd be right to do so. As it stands, the way Bruce handles kids is in a lot of ways remniscent of Michael Jackson. No, you die-hard Bat-fans, I'm not saying he's molesting the kids (But then I don't think Michael did either)-but I am saying that there are parallels. An emotionally stunted man trying to bring up an emotionally scarred kid by himself is a recipe for disaster.
Another thing; I remember someone (I think it was Frank Miller) saying that Batman believes that entropy & chaos are the natural state of man, & order must be imposed by force. Y'know, I seem to recall similar sentiments being spoken by Darth Vader.
 
Batman isn't a good role model, in my opinion. As people have stated already, yes, he believes in justice and his morals are good, but the way he gets things done, well, y'know. And, sure, he's very intelligent, but "anyone who dresses up like a bat clearly has issues."
It's almost like asking if Willy Wonka is a good role model. Yes, he makes good things and makes people happy with his creations, but he's a lunatic who spends his days in a crazy chocolate factory. (Just to use that as a comparison, you see.)
 
A profoundly unsafe chocolate factory, at that. Why would he walk kids around a place that has all these potential deathtraps, & not have better security measures in place? Does he know nothing about children?
 
They maybe influenced to some degree, but that doesn't mean they should be endorsed, anyone who goes around saying they are has rocks in there head, real people are role models, not 2D illustrations and especially not one of a man who's methods of dealing with crime is to break the law and do what ever it takes to bring order. Batman is not a role model, cool character, but not a role model that should anyway be endorsed. I think a better essay to write would be 'Why fictional characters shouldn't be role models'.

that's slightly ignoring reality though. if you admit kids are influenced by stories and media (which studies going back to the 50's have consistently proved beyond a doubt) then there's a responsibilty to ensure that the media contains desirable outcomes. There are entire industries built around the notion that kids are shaped by what they consume. It's not totally ideal, many parents would like to be the sole examaple for their kids, but it's simply not the way it is. Parents who deny that usually hit a wall when their children reach 10-12. It's like "oh no what can do about the outside world?" and then they tell themsvles that "oh well MY children are wise enough to ignore the bad stuff and listen to ME, because I'VE raised them right." yeah, okay. As hillary says it takes a village.
 
So what do you guys think? Should I outline the controversy that arises with what Batman does and then justify it or would I be better off detailing why he isn't a good role model for youngsters? Either way, I need to take a stand.
 
In a way he is a model. But it depends how you see him. He can be the cheerfulliest of guys(60's) or He can be a Dark Avenger of evil. I look at Batman and wonder is he a real role model. My answer is yes. He's the Police force in One person. People strive to be the best cop they can be but Batman is everything what a cop or person would want to be. Take the laws into his own hands and enforce to the point where he controls the city. He never asked for anything in return when he became Batman. Why. because he knew what the results would be. He kne when he donned the cape and cowl that he could never turn his back on the promise he made to his parents.

For example the end of BB

Gordan: I never said thank you.

Batman: And you'll never have to.

He doesnt need a thanks or nothing. He knows when he has done right or wrong. Thats why i think he should be a good role model. What makes him so likable though is he is a man in a mask. Anyone can take the law into there hands,dress up like a bat and take down crime. But Batman has the will and dedication to do this night in and night out.
 
So what do you guys think? Should I outline the controversy that arises with what Batman does and then justify it or would I be better off detailing why he isn't a good role model for youngsters? Either way, I need to take a stand.

Wouldn't you get the best grade for outlining why he is a role model despite the obvious contradiction of breaking the law? It's the more thorough interrogation. What subject is this for, what's the essay supposed to be about apart than Batman?

Pros
Defiance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Idealism. Believing in what you are doing. He's picked a monentous and some would say unwinnable crusade but in doing so it's actually made himself stronger, happier, more productive to society by fighting it, regardless of if he'll ever 'win' or not. He works outside of prescribed systems and makes his own way. He's perfected everything he puts his mind to. He refuses to be bowed or swept aside even by the "good guys" (GCPD, government, superman) who apparently know what's best for him and have the authority to regulate society. It's self determinisation rather than doing what society expects of you. There's also the aspect of taking something average and making it extraordinary. Therefore your average kid has the capacity to be extraordinary along as they have the willingness to set their own path and to stick to it no matter what tries to knock them off.
 
So what do you guys think? Should I outline the controversy that arises with what Batman does and then justify it or would I be better off detailing why he isn't a good role model for youngsters? Either way, I need to take a stand.

I agree with Nepenthes. It will be far more convincing of an essay if you show the controversy for what it is, including it's causes, and then give your opinion, than just choosing one side and listing the reasons why it's right.

One thing I'd like to add about Robin is the fact that he was added specifically to get children to feel like a part of action. He is supposed to represent the young readers. When Batman is talking to Robin, it is like he's talking to the children reading/watching the stories. Hence all the advice/good manners Batman gave him in the old tv show...

This might be of use to you to illustrate some of your points about his role modeling(at least in the early years):
http://members.tripod.com/~AdamWest/b-lectur.htm
 
Well, I never liked Robin or any of his sidekicks myself and I agree it´s a terrible idea to put teenagers´lives in danger the way he regularly does and the methods he uses with them.
 
So what do you guys think? Should I outline the controversy that arises with what Batman does and then justify it or would I be better off detailing why he isn't a good role model for youngsters? Either way, I need to take a stand.

I think you can show both sides, but if you´re going to defend it, I think it´s necessary to outline the context in which his stories are told. When you take in consideration that Gotham is such a violent city with a very corrupt and inefficient police force, that takes a lot away from the potential downsides of Batman´s actions, cuz he´s a necessary symbol of hope for the city, and one of the few men taking a stand, even if his motivations and methods are somewhat questionable. if Batman lived in a safer city with a better police force, his actions would be much more repreensible.
 
Well, I never liked Robin or any of his sidekicks myself and I agree it´s a terrible idea to put teenagers´lives in danger the way he regularly does and the methods he uses with them.



Saving a child from a life crippled by rage, regret and retribution is a noble act though. And I beleive that in the world of the comics, it worked :cwink:


Oh, i mean except for the time that it didn't and the kid died :O
 
Well, I never liked Robin or any of his sidekicks myself and I agree it´s a terrible idea to put teenagers´lives in danger the way he regularly does and the methods he uses with them.

SmartBombStudios-justice.jpg
 
Is Batman a good role model??

I would say yes, despite the illegal reactions. I know if I had a kid, who turned out to be like batman. i would be proud of what he was trying to do. Yes, on paper batman doesn't seem like a good role model. But I would 100% support someone who was batman.
 
I actually had to write an entrance exam for a fancy school when I was 12. The topic was Who is your hero and why. I think we were supposed to write about our dads or President Clinton or something. This is Middle School, not total kids stuff mind you. But seriously the best person i could think of was Batman so I wrote the essay and then when I told my mum in the parking lot she went balls out ballistic, told my dad and he yelled at me about my future. But ha ha I got in the 98th percentile in English for that test and went to sit some tests for some scholarship. Role model indeed. I stayed at that school for a year but the kids were weird so we went back to public. In the US. ha ha.
 
He runs around dressed as a Bat beating up criminals, when he has information he doesn't share it with police, His pretty reckless from a real world point of view so no his not a good role model although his heart is in the right place his actions aren't.
 
A profoundly unsafe chocolate factory, at that. Why would he walk kids around a place that has all these potential deathtraps, & not have better security measures in place? Does he know nothing about children?

lol Obviously not, the dudes a loon
 
Really great thread, mate :)

I've read through what everyone's posted here and agree with a great deal of it.

Just to throw in my thoughts for what it's worth:

Batman's position as a 'role model' for children has always been questionable. I don't think you're going to have an easy job settling on one side of the argument or the other.

This is mainly due to the fact that there have existed so many variations of the character across the years, variations that have tended to reflect the times in which they are written.

For instance, the Batman of the 50s and 60s, post Frederick Wertham, would most definitely be seen as a role model to children. That period completely eschews the 'darker' elements of the character and fits right alongside the truth, justice and american way-ism of Superman. The comics from that period are so intent on being 'good for the kids' (though this was an enforced outlook) that the character might never have recovered. Of course, additionally to this was the 60s series.

Now, by stark constrast, take the post Regan-era Batman, launched ostensibly by Frank Miller in DKR and Year One. This character is definitely not a role model for children - other than by representing the idea of justice and 'doing what's right'. The darker, far more psychologically complex Batman of this period goes way beyond the sometimes simplistic moralisations of other comic characters and into far darker territory. I won't even mention Arkham Asylum :)

So, I'd suggest treating your essay as a study of multiple variants on the Batman character, and discussing the idea of him as a role model in context.

You've actually hit upon an extremely good way of entering into a discussion on the character of Batman as a whole...The notion of him as role model to children is a great way to explore many aspects of Batman down through the years and in different media :)
 
that's slightly ignoring reality though. if you admit kids are influenced by stories and media (which studies going back to the 50's have consistently proved beyond a doubt) then there's a responsibilty to ensure that the media contains desirable outcomes. There are entire industries built around the notion that kids are shaped by what they consume. It's not totally ideal, many parents would like to be the sole examaple for their kids, but it's simply not the way it is. Parents who deny that usually hit a wall when their children reach 10-12. It's like "oh no what can do about the outside world?" and then they tell themsvles that "oh well MY children are wise enough to ignore the bad stuff and listen to ME, because I'VE raised them right." yeah, okay. As hillary says it takes a village.

Who the hell is Hillary?
 
Never mind I think figured it out, I assume it's Clinton, don't care much for U.S. politics.
 
isn't that ant man????? if so he's not in the background but on flash's back:-)
 
Ant Man is a Marvel hero.

That is The Atom.
 
oh ...dont knew the atom....../ both capable to shrink...whatever;-) ......shame on me...:-)
 
I'm currently writing on essay on Batman as a controversial figure within his society and was wondering if anyone wanted to lend a helping hand, seeing as this also applies to the upcoming movie where Batman will be pushed to the limit. I already have my own ideas, but I wanted to see what some of you guys had to say.

How is Batman controversial in Gotham City?

It depends which version of him you're talking about. 'Cos in the sixties series he was often contacted by the authorities by [red] phone to help them. So was pseudo establishment despite dressing up as a bat. So are you talking the current film series or is it more than that? As others have mentioned stuff with the comics. Also real life with Wertham.

I'll point out the film where Bruce mentions someone dressing as a bat clearly has issues. It has some of the reactions in that film with some of the characters in it. Also those newspapers recently released as publicity would also have fictional accounts of Gotham's reaction to him. Also Bruce.

Do you agree with Batman's illegal actions? How are they justifiable, or are they not at all?

I treat him as fiction. As a fantasy figure I love him. If he were real I'd have problems with him. Ironically it's his Bruce Wayne persona I'd have the most trouble with.

In our society, do you think Batman is a good role model for children, even though he solves problems by using violence and taking the law into his own hands?

I don't think of him as a role model but again as a fantasy figure. Also how many billionare children are there that had their parents murdered in front of them? OK mainly kidding in a non-funny way.

How can Batman be seen as a symbol to both the people of Gotham and the people in our world?

Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

In the current film series he's a figure of hope, fear (criminals and police: remember that they waited for the SWAT team, except Gordon, in the first film) and incorruptable. I'm mainly talking "Batman Begins" as I haven't seen the latest one for obvious reasons. I think someone might have mentioned Robin Hood and that'd be a good example. Because he fought for justice and the poor. Batman is similar. In a corrupt Gotham he fights against it. As well as saving the city from those that would destroy it. Now I'll leave it to others to mention other forms of fiction. As for our world I guess I see him as a fictional mythological figure. Being fancy. I love more than one version and have so since childhood.

One idea I particularly defend is Bruce Wayne in many ways is much more heroic than Superman or almost any other superhero. It´s not so hard to be Mr. Nice Guy when you´re raised by two loving parents - even if adopted ones - in a nice farm in Kansas. But in front of what Bruce went through in his childhood, you can say anything about dressing up like a bat, but the truth is he could easily have become nothing but a depressed guy full of self-pity, a drug addict, a suicidal guy, even a serial killer. Instead, he took his tragedy and decided to use those dark feelings and motivation and make something positive out of it, help make his city a better place and try to prevent others from suffering as he did. Yeah, there is an element of hatred in revenge as well in what he does, but he still to some extent manages to keep that under control. Darwyn Cooke gave an excelent definition: Bruce gives other people a chance for a happiness he knows he´ll never experience himself.

Why do people have to diss Superman? I love both. By the way he may not experience happiness but it's 'cos he chooses not to. I don't see that as a healthy thing to do. But I'll admit him being happy would be a shocker. The poor dear.

Here´s an article I wrote a while ago on his vigilantism:

BATMAN – FRIEND OR FOE?

Let´s face it, the concept of the superhero is inherently connected to that of the vigilante, that is, someone who exercises any form of law or “justice” enforcement without going through the proper legal channels to do so. Technically, even boy scout Superman is a vigilante. But the vigilantism debate always seems to gravitate more often towards Bats than other superheroes. Perhaps it´s due to the fact the character doesn´t have any superhuman skills, which makes him a bit closer to a “real” vigilante, even though legally it doesn´t really make any difference. One thing often said about the character is “in real life Batman would get arrested in his first night out” However, there are some circumstances about the dark knight´s vigilantism that are pretty unique when compared to real-life vigilantism. When all is said and done, is Bats a criminal?

The short answer is yes, the long answer is… Well, Batman IS a vigilante, and he operates outside official law enforcement. However, not EVERYTHING that the dark knight does is necessarily illegal. Remember, things like citizen arrests and neighborhood patrols – if they don´t have authorization and supervision by official law enforcement - are forms of vigilantism too. When Bats apprehends a criminal, as long as there´s undeniable evidence that a crime has been committed or was in progress, technically that´s not illegal. Beat up said criminal, as long as it´s in self-defense and/or defense of others, is not illegal either. Actually, like anyone, he could even kill, which he doesn´t, as long as he´s doing it in self-defense. To investigate privately, as well, is not necessarily an illegal activity either, even though you should be licensed to do so, and he clearly doesn´t have such license. Some of Bats´ typical activities in comics, which are ironically some of his most effective ones, are indeed illegal, which includes breaking into private properties, his interrogation methods, which often include physically and psychologically abusing criminals, and often destroying public and private properties. In comics and movies, police force, commanded by Comissioner Gordon, mostly just looks the other way, which in real life would get them in A LOT of trouble.

When Batman is called a vigilante, it must be taken into consideration that he´s a VERY unique example of that activity, when compared to real-life vigilantes, and I´m not just talking about the “dressing up like a bat” thing. Vigilantes can be indeed highly dangerous individuals to society, yet Batman is distinguished by a few crucial elements a) he doesn´t kill or apply punishment on his own, b) he´s highly resourceful and trained in criminology and self-defense. Those two elements alone differentiate him from the most dangerous types of vigilantes, the ones who make themselves judge, jury and executioner – The Punisher, anyone? -, and the enthusiastic amateurs who wanna “play cop”. Some of the things that distinguish Batman, however, also play against him. The mask element, even though justified in comics by his desire to protect himself and those close to him against reprisals, implies he doesn´t want to be accountable for his actions, and yes, the “dress up like a bat” thing, in spite of its symbolical and practical value for the character, will, let´s face it, raise a lot of questions about his mental stability…

Even considering his activities as illegal, the “would be arrested in his first night” thing isn´t quite that simple either. There are criminals, and I mean TRULY dangerous criminals, like serial killers and drug dealers, who operate during years without being caught, and some of them aren´t nearly as resourceful as a billionaire who spent several years training and preparing would be. Which is not to say that he would never eventually get caught, but let´s give the dark knight some credit for his escape techniques…

If Batman chose to, could he act legally and still be Batman - or relatively close? If you get past the whole “dress up like a bat” thing, in some ways he could, yes. Private investigators can be hired by the police as investigative consultants – that´s what TV´s famous obsessive-compulsive detective Monk does, for instance - and someone as well-prepared and resourceful as him would be of use in some of the more difficult cases. In fact, that´s kinda sorta what he already does in his assistance to Gordon in classic comics canon. Of course, there come the more vigilante-like elements of his activities, as the aforementioned secret identity, breaking into private properties, etc., which again would have to count on both his skill to be discrete and a VERY lenient police force/legal system, which are known to be VERY unsympathetic to vigilante activities, even some of the technically legal ones.

But even beyond the merely legal problem, there´s the moral/ethical/social element of what Batman does. Traditionally, the myth of the vigilante hero is connected to the individual, a group or even the population as a whole being unsatisfied with the official authorities, due to corruption/inefficiency/authoritarianism. That´s where lies much of the brilliance of Frank Miller´s reinvention of the character´s mythos with The Dark Knight Returns and Year One. Miller created a context of a terribly violent Gotham City with corrupted/inefficient/plutocratic authorities where you can actually believe Bruce Wayne´s actions would feel necessary, building from sources as old as Robin Hood – oddly enough, pretty much all the major “revolutionary” theories and movements in history started within the elite, but that´s a whole new topic... Not unlike has happened with certain real-life vigilantes and watch groups, even chased and denied by the authorities, Batman gets support from a scared and tired population - and also from a brave man inside the force…Also like a lot of them, Bats is often accused of being sort of a “right-wing nut” who feels the solution for the crime and violence in our society is simply to go out and beat the crap out of thugs. Must be noted, though, that Bruce´s also a devoted philanthropist – the thug Batman beats one night may well become the ex-con Bruce hires one day - and also his rule of not killing demonstrates a surprising level of compassion for the ones he chases for someone so deeply scarred by crime, one that real-life vigilantes often lack.

Legal or illegal, left-wing or right-wing, Batman leaves at least one lesson than can be used by all: one person can make a difference. We don´t have to and should not be apathetic and conformist in the face in injustice, violence, poverty, bigotry or whatever are the ills of the world that tick us the most. Of course that doesn´t mean we should dress up like bats to beat thugs or even that we should disrespect the laws – even though laws can and should be questioned and changed when they´re not serving the best interests of the people. But we can do our share. “Vigilante” comes from the Spanish word for “watchman” or “watcher”, that is, someone who watches, who takes care of.

Nice read. I disagree about the elite though. Sometimes they have the good ideas. But not always. From the top of my head a lot of work reforms were from the unions and organised labour. Like the 8 hour week reform. Then there's the women's vote. I'll grant you the "elite" (i.e. men) did adopt it. But they weren't the ones that came up with it. Also did you know the reason why people in the U.S. can refuse treatment was because of the Jehovah's Witnesses? Because they sued the government so they could refuse blood (although you could argue it involved the Supreme Court). Also in Australia we got Land Rights for Aborigines because they fought for them in court and were granted them. Actually before that there was Wave Hill where Aboriginies walked off and had a Strike. It started out as a fair pay plus housing dispute and ended up as a Land Rights cause celebre. Which they got. Although they're still screwed when it comes to housing and jobs.

So what do you guys think? Should I outline the controversy that arises with what Batman does and then justify it or would I be better off detailing why he isn't a good role model for youngsters? Either way, I need to take a stand.

Not necessarily unless you're only allowed one type of essay. See below.

Wouldn't you get the best grade for outlining why he is a role model despite the obvious contradiction of breaking the law? It's the more thorough interrogation. What subject is this for, what's the essay supposed to be about apart than Batman?

Pros
Defiance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Idealism. Believing in what you are doing. He's picked a monentous and some would say unwinnable crusade but in doing so it's actually made himself stronger, happier, more productive to society by fighting it, regardless of if he'll ever 'win' or not. He works outside of prescribed systems and makes his own way. He's perfected everything he puts his mind to. He refuses to be bowed or swept aside even by the "good guys" (GCPD, government, superman) who apparently know what's best for him and have the authority to regulate society. It's self determinisation rather than doing what society expects of you. There's also the aspect of taking something average and making it extraordinary. Therefore your average kid has the capacity to be extraordinary along as they have the willingness to set their own path and to stick to it no matter what tries to knock them off.

I like what you said above. Except why did you mention Superman in the same way as the authorities? By the way I prefer them as friends or more than friends.

Angeloz
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
200,559
Messages
21,759,701
Members
45,596
Latest member
anarchomando1
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"