Batman R.I.P.

I haven't been reading this monthly, I'm waiting for it to end and pick it up in Trade Paper Back...but is this true?

Does [BLACKOUT]Bruce find out that Alfred is his real father and it causes him to abandon his crusade because he discovers that his parents weren't the ones murdered in that alley. That Thomas Wayne wasn't his father and that Martha Wayne cheated on the man who raised him with the butler?[/BLACKOUT]

This is dumb for many reasons. This wouldn't make Batman quit, first of all. Because it is still two people that he loved very much who were murdered that night whether one was [BLACKOUT]his father [/BLACKOUT] or not. He still saw the power of evil and vowed to end it.

Where does this leave [BLACKOUT]Alfred[/BLACKOUT]? Did he know? Why did he not say anything for the last 30 years?

Does this make Bruce [BLACKOUT]poor[/BLACKOUT]? If he is not the true [BLACKOUT]son[/BLACKOUT] of Thomas Wayne... how does he [BLACKOUT]inherit[/BLACKOUT] all of that wealth. [BLACKOUT]I know you could say it's in his will, but that's assuming he updated his will in the 8 years Bruce was alive[/BLACKOUT].


This run will just bring up many questions. It cheapens that Batman mythology. You can't go and [BLACKOUT]take away[/BLACKOUT] Batman's reason for being Batman. It's like having the Joker be the killer of his parents, or finding out that Peter Parker went after the wrong man the night his uncle was killed and later discovering that the true killer was on the lose and turns into a super villain.

:mad: :down

-R


It's misdirection. Read the book; it's obvious.
 
And, we have to know that the [blackout] replacement[/blackout] will be Damien Wayne.

An eight year old Batman? I wouldn't count on it. Dick will be Batman. In the possible future in which Damien was Batman, he mentioned having been preceded by Dick.
 
I haven't been reading this monthly, I'm waiting for it to end and pick it up in Trade Paper Back...but is this true?

Does [blackout]Bruce find out that Alfred is his real father and it causes him to abandon his crusade because he discovers that his parents weren't the ones murdered in that alley. That Thomas Wayne wasn't his father and that Martha Wayne cheated on the man who raised him with the butler?[/blackout]

This is dumb for many reasons. This wouldn't make Batman quit, first of all. Because it is still two people that he loved very much who were murdered that night whether one was [blackout]his father [/blackout] or not. He still saw the power of evil and vowed to end it.

Where does this leave [blackout]Alfred[/blackout]? Did he know? Why did he not say anything for the last 30 years?

Does this make Bruce [blackout]poor[/blackout]? If he is not the true [blackout]son[/blackout] of Thomas Wayne... how does he [blackout]inherit[/blackout] all of that wealth. [blackout]I know you could say it's in his will, but that's assuming he updated his will in the 8 years Bruce was alive[/blackout].


This run will just bring up many questions. It cheapens that Batman mythology. You can't go and [blackout]take away[/blackout] Batman's reason for being Batman. It's like having the Joker be the killer of his parents, or finding out that Peter Parker went after the wrong man the night his uncle was killed and later discovering that the true killer was on the lose and turns into a super villain.

:mad: :down

-R

This has been suggested, yes, but until this time next week it's all guesswork. The whole thing could have been contrived by the Black Glove to further destroy both Bruce Wayne and the Batman. We'll know soon.
 
An eight year old Batman? I wouldn't count on it. Dick will be Batman. In the possible future in which Damien was Batman, he mentioned having been preceded by Dick.

I'm convinced that the current run of Nightwing has been all about preparing Dick for the transition.
 
I'm convinced that the current run of Nightwing has been all about preparing Dick for the transition.
though i'm not crazy about the possibility of Dick replace Bruce, if they do it as well as Bucky and Captain America i should be able to enjoy it.
 
I honestly cannot understand why any Batman fan doesn't appreciate Grant Morrison's run. He has went to great lengths of research to reference many, many great aspects of almost 70 years of Batman history and then tried to form it into a cohesive whole. He clearly loves and cares about the character in all his phases and has meticulously taken him apart to ensure that he has a spectacular send-off. Yes, he's "killing him off'' but that doesn't mean he holds any contempt for him and he is currently writing one of the most exciting stories to grace the pages of Batman in decades. In ten years, Batman RIP will be considered a milestone in the character's history and will rank among Year One, Dark Knight Returns, O'Neil & Adams etc. etc.

And the ninja Man-Bats were brilliant.

To say that RIP will be a milestone in Batman's history 10 years from now, at this point, is premature. The story's not over yet, and the last issue could very well make or break this entire thing.

My problems with this run is that it's all over the place and not really cohesive. Sure, people say that that's the point. But i don't like it, and it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. There's too much stuff that comes and goes and isn't fleshed out enough for me to even be interested in them. There's nothing exciting to this arc at all, except the mere concept of killing Batman off. I read and buy with an interest, not an excitement.

as for this "Alfred being Bruce's father" bit, i'm not sure it's misdirection. It's been brought up once, but not even Bruce is aware of it, and if im not mistaken, a newspaper had all the information. So we haven't even seen this published in Gotham yet. We don't know how this affects anything.

Why i don't think it's misdirection is simple: We, the readers, think it's too outrageous to be true. Morrison knows this, so he uses this. He's fooling us though, and it winds up being true.

That's my theory anyway.


You can like this story all you want. But i'm not really enjoying it at all.
 
I'm convinced that the current run of Nightwing has been all about preparing Dick for the transition.

Yeah. It's a little thing, but when the last issue depicted Dick as being covered in old scars, little bells went off in my head.
 
Why i don't think it's misdirection is simple: We, the readers, think it's too outrageous to be true. Morrison knows this, so he uses this. He's fooling us though, and it winds up being true.

You say it's too outrageous for us to think it's true, so it's not misdirection... but you believe it, and so do a crapload of other people, so obviously it's not too outrageous to be true and is functioning perfectly as misdirection. There you are, misdirected. See?
 
You say it's too outrageous for us to think it's true, so it's not misdirection... but you believe it, and so do a crapload of other people, so obviously it's not too outrageous to be true and is functioning perfectly as misdirection. There you are, misdirected. See?

Yes...kind of. I think. Damn you!:oldrazz:

I'm not misdirected if i'm expecting it though. I think it's true. Most don't and will be shocked to find it's true.

If it ISN'T true, then it's misdirection on my behalf.

but who knows? We'll find out next week won't we?
 
I'm not misdirected if i'm expecting it though.
You're misdirected because it isn't true and you think it is. That's why I keep calling it "misdirection." Everyone--whether they believe it or not--can't get their heads off this "It's Thomas Wayne!" junk. That's misdirection.
 
I dont think it'll be true, i mean havent marvel and DC learned by now that drastically altering a character's past and origin always ends in disaster? It's been done so many times with so many characters and the repercussions have been disastrous and they end up retconning it back to normal. I think Morrison's simply just trying to conjure up massive amounts of hype for this story by saying its the biggest revelation in 70 years of batman comics, but i'd bet a lot of money that when the answers do come, we're all gona be like "thats it??".
 
You're misdirected because it isn't true and you think it is. That's why I keep calling it "misdirection." Everyone--whether they believe it or not--can't get their heads off this "It's Thomas Wayne!" junk. That's misdirection.

But you don't know that it's not true. What if it is?

Let me put it this way: If we both know for a fact that it's misdirection, then it's not really misdirection is it? We've seen through the ploy.

And if we've seen through the ploy, it isn't very exciting is it? If you think it's exciting, then ok. i certainly don't. and that's my problem with this whole run. It's not exciting.

If it is true, then whatever. It's morrison pissing, to an extent, on Batman's history. It'll work to an extent as well, but won't go over well with just about everybody.That, and i saw it coming. If it isn't true, oh well. Then i can say i saw it coming, too.

In all honesty, i'm kind of indifferent to it, if that makes sense. If it's true, big whoop. If it isn't, big whoop.
 
r.ip is just a small part of batmans big change...his final fate happens in final crisis 6 (i believe) and the batman/final crisis tie in
 
But you don't know that it's not true. What if it is?
It isn't. The information would be treated differently and the story would be told differently if it was.

Let me put it this way: If we both know for a fact that it's misdirection, then it's not really misdirection is it? We've seen through the ploy.
You haven't seen through it. You think it's true. And it doesn't matter if few people realize it's misdirection, anyway. Everybody is stuck on this thing. Everybody. Everybody is talking about it and nobody can stop thinking about it. That's misdirection. He's go everybody hooked on something that, really, won't be that important.
 
You haven't seen through it. You think it's true. And it doesn't matter if few people realize it's misdirection, anyway. Everybody is stuck on this thing. Everybody. Everybody is talking about it and nobody can stop thinking about it. That's misdirection. He's go everybody hooked on something that, really, won't be that important.

::sigh::

It does matter if people realize it's misdirection. If people realize it's misdirection, it's introduction is pointless and it's purpose dampens the story, not as a whole, but on a personal basis. Let's now say that you have convinced me that this rumor is Misdirection. It's ********. It isn't real. Ok. Now that i know that, why should i care? The story is now less interesting to me, than it was before i knew it was false.

That's what im trying to say. If I HAVE SEEN THROUGH THE PLOY the story is that less interesting. I've realized it is misdirection, i've always suspected it was misdirection. But you mentioned the USAToday article that says something about a secret in Batman's past that is going to shake things up, so i assumed that the secret could only be this ridiculous rumor about Alfred really being Bruce's father and that it was now true.

I may have misread what you were saying, but i have always thought it was some silly crap to mess things up. Then i read that post of yours, and second guessed myself, thinking that USAToday just confirmed something silly in the comics. That's why i then thought it may be true.

If the rumor is FALSE, which you claim it is, then my enjoyment of the story has lessened because i've known it was false since before the story ended and i know it will have no bearing on anything.
 
::sigh::

It does matter if people realize it's misdirection.
That's not what I said. I said "few" for a reason.

If people realize it's misdirection, it's introduction is pointless
Are you sure? Read this thread. Whether they believe it to be true or not, everyone is talking about it and everyone is thinking about it. Ergo, it is serving exactly the purpose misdirection is supposed to serve. It's making you think about something that something unimportant, so the really important stuff can pop up and surprise you later.

It's ********. It isn't real. Ok. Now that i know that, why should i care? The story is now less interesting to me, than it was before i knew it was false.
I can't tell you how to react to how this turns out, and that's only compounded by the fact that I don't know how it's going to turn out. What's more, I don't know that Morrison could provide anything that would satisfy you. Believe me, critical examination is great, but I get the impression that your posts are less about honest critical examination and more about that you're dedicated to disliking it regardless.

In any case, misdirection is a perfectly effective (and common) device, and there's nothing wrong with using it here.

That's what im trying to say. If I HAVE SEEN THROUGH THE PLOY
Which is why I keep saying that you haven't seen through the ploy. You told me yourself: you think it's true. If it turns out I'm right, your response would logically be "Wow! He totally misdirected me, because I thought Hurt was really Thomas Wayne! Saint was right all along!"


I've realized it is misdirection, i've always suspected it was misdirection.
This is not what your comments indicate, as you began this conversation by telling me that it's not misdirection, and that it's true.

But you mentioned the USAToday article that says something about a secret in Batman's past that is going to shake things up, so i assumed that the secret could only be this ridiculous rumor about Alfred really being Bruce's father and that it was now true.
Sure, it fits the description, but that won't be it.

I may have misread what you were saying, but i have always thought it was some silly crap to mess things up.
Then why did you say you expected it to be true? I don't understand. We seem to be having some communication problems.
 
Are you sure? Read this thread. Whether they believe it to be true or not, everyone is talking about it and everyone is thinking about it. Ergo, it is serving exactly the purpose misdirection is supposed to serve. It's making you think about something that something unimportant, so the really important stuff can pop up and surprise you later.

I said it would be pointless on a personal readership level.


I can't tell you how to react to how this turns out, and that's only compounded by the fact that I don't know how it's going to turn out. What's more, I don't know that Morrison could provide anything that would satisfy you. Believe me, critical examination is great, but I get the impression that your posts are less about honest critical examination and more about that you're dedicated to disliking it regardless.

I'm not dedicated to disliking this story. I've made my opinions known throughout this thread. Somewhere i praised part 4, i think it was, where it's revealed Batman had some sort of back-up plan in case something happened to his mind. I believe i went as far to say that part 4 was the best issue yet.

But alot of my problems lie in the pacing of Morrison's entire run. Things come and go at a speed that's too quick for me to care. The end of "Batman & Son" just popped out of nowhere. Bruce has a son. Then he gets blown up. The End. Of course, it wasn't the end of Damian, but nothing happened in that arc to make go "Oh, not poor Damian". Then there was something about the anti-christ, and the suggestion that Dr. Hurt is actually Satan himself. That intrigued me, but it never went anywhere and no one's talked about it since then. There's just too much stuff coming and going and never coming back again that it's not exciting to me.

I'm not saying Morrison has to satisfy me. It's all subjective. You like his run for the most part. I don't, for the most part. When all is said and done, after part 6, i'll re-evaluate my opinion and let it be known.


Which is why I keep saying that you haven't seen through the ploy. You told me yourself: you think it's true. If it turns out I'm right, your response would logically be "Wow! He totally misdirected me, because I thought Hurt was really Thomas Wayne! Saint was right all along!"

I said i'm not sure if it's really misdirection or not. And this is where i should have said this: It would be funny as hell if it wasn't really misdirection. That's kind of what i was getting at in my earlier posts. It was be funny because Morrison suggests something outrageous. Fans don't want that outrageous something to be true, so they think it's really just a ploy to divert their attention away from something else. All of a sudden, BAM! Alfred is really Bruce's father. Then we get to read all sorts of funny posts here of people complaining, and saying they thought it was just a ploy.

You could argue that it was still misdirection, but i'd argue that people only allowed themselves to be misdirected by themselves, not by Morrison. Get what i'm saying?

If the rumor is FALSE, which it is, my enjoyment of the story is lessened. The introduction of this rumor, which i know is fake, i now know, has no bearing on the story at all and has become less enjoyable.

If the rumor is true, the story has become more interesting because Morrison has just done something to make fans go crazy.




This is not what your comments indicate, as you began this conversation by telling me that it's not misdirection, and that it's true.
Then why did you say you expected it to be true? I don't understand. We seem to be having some communication problems.

Again, i said i wasn't sure or not and posted a theory as why i think it MIGHT be true, but that was because of the USAToday article. It was merely a fun theory to think about. I probably should have made that more clear.
 
I'm not dedicated to disliking this story.
Alright.

but nothing happened in that arc to make go "Oh, not poor Damian".
If the rumor is FALSE, which it is, my enjoyment of the story is lessened. The introduction of this rumor, which i know is fake, i now know, has no bearing on the story at all and has become less enjoyable.[/quote]
Just because it's misdirection doesn't mean it "has no bearing on the story." I don't understand how you can honestly say "I'll be disappointed" when you don't know what the relevance of this issue is. That's kind of like saying "I'll be disappointed at the end of Lost if the black smoke monster doesn't turn out to be XYZ."
 
Alright.I don't understand how you can honestly say "I'll be disappointed" when you don't know what the relevance of this issue is. That's kind of like saying "I'll be disappointed at the end of Lost if the black smoke monster doesn't turn out to be XYZ."

The relevance of the issue will determine how i feel about the book. I said in a previous post that i will re-evaluate my opinion of this arc when it's over and let my opinion be known.

But if it's all a ploy, it will probably be done away with once this arc is over. You could have argued that i didn't know the relevance of Jezebel Jet when i, as well as others, said that we'd be disappointed if Jezebel Jett was the black glove, or atleast a villain as the arc progressed. And she was revealed to be a villain. And it wasn't climatic at all. It was a "Yea, i knew it." moment for me. The same could very well happen with this rumor, and if it really is a rumor, and it's dismissed as one, then my opinion will be "yea, i knew that already. Big deal".

But as i've been saying, we'll find out next week.
 
I honestly cannot understand why any Batman fan doesn't appreciate Grant Morrison's run. He has went to great lengths of research to reference many, many great aspects of almost 70 years of Batman history and then tried to form it into a cohesive whole. He clearly loves and cares about the character in all his phases and has meticulously taken him apart to ensure that he has a spectacular send-off. Yes, he's "killing him off'' but that doesn't mean he holds any contempt for him and he is currently writing one of the most exciting stories to grace the pages of Batman in decades. In ten years, Batman RIP will be considered a milestone in the character's history and will rank among Year One, Dark Knight Returns, O'Neil & Adams etc. etc.

And the ninja Man-Bats were brilliant.

because to be quite honest with you, most people on this site dpnt care about batmans history...they only care for frank miller and afterwards.

I love the fact that morrisons making sense of the silver age bats...but other fans dont care...they're drooling over dini's conservative take on batman
 
Everybody is stuck on this thing. Everybody. Everybody is talking about it and nobody can stop thinking about it. That's misdirection. He's go everybody hooked on something that, really, won't be that important.

I think one reason people are hooked on it is because its an undeveloped thread in the narrative; people are just waiting for it to pop back up and actually have some sort of consequence. Sure, it amounted to something on internet message boards, but that's not what matters. The allegations have to come to some sort of resolution, otherwise they were simply introduced to put us on edge/throw us off track and would amount to little more than a cheap trick.

For the record, I just reread Morrison's run (so far) and although I -still- have issues with certain bits and pieces (basically the same as I always had and have already mentioned) I enjoyed it more than I did originally. Its maybe a bit too plot-heavy/character-light for my tastes, but I will freely and easily admit to enjoying it. It should come as no surprise that RIP read much better this time around, though the finale is still in a make or break position.

As for the Ninja Man-Bats that keep getting brought back up...They seemed too "out there" for me the first readthrough, but then again I'm a big fan of the Moench/Jones/Beatty run, so I can't really complain about things being "out there", can I? :)
 
is this going to be followed through in detective too? i only read that and id hate to read it without Bruce Wayne as Batman
 
I think one reason people are hooked on it is because its an undeveloped thread in the narrative; people are just waiting for it to pop back up and actually have some sort of consequence. Sure, it amounted to something on internet message boards, but that's not what matters. The allegations have to come to some sort of resolution, otherwise they were simply introduced to put us on edge/throw us off track and would amount to little more than a cheap trick.
Agreed.
 
Yeah. It's a little thing, but when the last issue depicted Dick as being covered in old scars, little bells went off in my head.

Same here, as well as Barbara mentioning Dick's voice sounding a little gravelly.
 

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