Batman Returns Questions

[Bruce Stark]

I have a couple of question about Batman Returns that hopefully some people here could try to answer.

1. After watching Batman Returns most recently, I was wondering why Max Shrek had to use The Penguin a.k.a Oswald Cobblepot as his pawn mayoral candidate. As evidenced by the public response to Shrek when he spoke at the Christmas tree lighting, a lot of Gotham citizens seemed to like him. So, my question is, why didn't he just run for mayor himself?

2. In the the pre-title sequence where the Cobblepots are taking Oswald in the carriage through the park to dump him in the basket off the bridge, they pass another couple with a baby carriage. The other couple wishes the Cobblepots a Merry Christmas and the Cobblepots wish them Merry Christmas back. I got to thinking that perhaps the the other couple could have easily been Thomas and Martha Wayne with baby Bruce in the carriage. What do you guys think? Also, do you think that the writers of the film or Tim Burton intended for viewers to believe that it was the Waynes?

I would appreciate if any of you who are interested could please give your thoughts on the possible answers these questions.
Thanks.

 

[The Joker]

1. I remember Shreck saying to the Mayor just before his speech in Gotham Plaza:

Max: "I have enough signatures from Shreck employees alone who want a recall. That's not a threat, just simple numbers"
Mayor: "Maybe. But you don't have an issue, Max. And you sure as hell don't have a candidate".

So, what the Mayor was saying was that Max had no valid reason to demand a recall. But after the Red Triangle gang attacks Gotham, and Max is blackmailed by the Penguin into helping him, Max uses his connection with the Penguin to have Gotham attacked repeatedly by the Red Triangle gang, thus giving him a reason to demand a recall for a mayor who can deal with this, and doesn't rely on Batman to clean up Gotham.
Also, the Penguin had a huge sympathy vote with Gotham. Max would also probably be too busy to handle his business as well as be the Mayor of Gotham. After all, all Max wanted was the Mayor's approval to give his power plant the go ahead. And with Penguin as Mayor, he'd get that.

2. I don't think it was Bruce Wayne's parents. Didn't look like them from what I could see. If it was, they certainly didn't draw any kind of special attention to them.

 

[Bruce Stark]

2. I don't think it was Bruce Wayne's parents. Didn't look like them from what I could see. If it was, they certainly didn't draw any kind of special attention to them.

No offense, but how do you know what they would look like? The Waynes only look like the actors playing them, who are always just two reasonably attractive caucasian people. The Waynes in Batman '89 look different from the Waynes in Batman Forever, who look different from the Waynes in Batman Begins. In turn, all these actors look different from the artist rendered Waynes in Batman: TAS and the comics (ie. the animated and comic Thomas Wayne has a mustache , and none of the live-action Thomas Waynes do) . So while I respect your opinion that those people weren't definitively the Waynes, I see no reason why they couldn't have easily been them.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah ok, it was the Waynes. The couple with the baby must have been the Waynes with little baby Bruce. I mean it stands to reason. What other couple in Gotham City could possibly have a baby besides the Waynes?

Tim Burton certainly made a big thing out of their 3 seconds of screen time, didn't he. Should have known it was them the second I saw them.

*End sarcasm*

 

[panda_eater]

it was suppose to just be a funny scene

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Had it have been Bruce Wayne's parents, i'm sure Burton would have dwelt on it's significance a bit more...

It was just an image of contrast... with the colors of the prams and all.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

ehhhh after watching this film probably 60 times since I was a kid, I would say that...

1. The answer to the first question is obvious, its a major plot point

2. If Burton intended for it to be the Waynes he wouldnt have given them such small screentime.

the end

 

[Gexmeister]

They werent the Waynes. He would have given some pointers to show that it was them if it actually was them.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

I have another question that seemed dumb to make a whole thread for. Do you think that Max Schreck being fried in the end and coming out looking like a crisp burnt up skeleton was a little nod to Black Mask?

 

[TLH]

I have another question that seemed dumb to make a whole thread for. Do you think that Max Schreck being fried in the end and coming out looking like a crisp burnt up skeleton was a little nod to Black Mask?

Probably not...

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Probably not...

You are probably right, but it just seems like a real big coincidence for the character to be a business rival to Bruce Wayne who is known for sleazy practices and then ends up looking almost just like the comic villain.

Thought I'd point it out just in case someone had some info on it. (If there was any to get)

 

[TLH]

You are probably right, but it just seems like a real big coincidence for the character to be a business rival to Bruce Wayne who is known for sleazy practices and then ends up looking almost just like the comic villain.

Thought I'd point it out just in case someone had some info on it. (If there was any to get)

It's an interesting observation, but with Black Mask a second-tier (maybe even third-tier) villain in terms of popularity, an allusion to the character wouldn't make much sense or be worth the effort.

 

[Gexmeister]

I have another question that seemed dumb to make a whole thread for. Do you think that Max Schreck being fried in the end and coming out looking like a crisp burnt up skeleton was a little nod to Black Mask?

With Burton not being an avid fan of the comics, and Black Mask not being a "famous" villain, I don't think so. But cool anyway.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

It wasn't the Waynes that the Cobblepotts passed. For a start, the carriage is white as a contrast to Oswald's black. Bruce is not a contrast to Oswald in the movie, he's a parallel. The entire reason the Penguin is abandoned by his parents is to give him that similarity to Bruce, losing his parents at a young age.

 

[Black Zodak]

It wasn't the Waynes that the Cobblepotts passed. For a start, the carriage is white as a contrast to Oswald's black. Bruce is not a contrast to Oswald in the movie, he's a parallel. The entire reason the Penguin is abandoned by his parents is to give him that similarity to Bruce, losing his parents at a young age.

Well, baby Bruce would not have been a parallel to the young Penguin because his parents were still alive. That wouldn't happen until after they died. I think though that if they were the "Waynes", Burton would have used the same actors from the first film.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

With Burton almost nothing in BR related to the comics in any way it was his version of Batman, thats common comic book film knowledge.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Well, baby Bruce would not have been a parallel to the young Penguin because his parents were still alive.

And so were Oswald's at that point. If there was going to be any symbolism in that way it would have been Oswald and Max, as originally they were going to be brothers.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

And so were Oswald's at that point. If there was going to be any symbolism in that way it would have been Oswald and Max, as originally they were going to be brothers.

This would have been cooler despite the fact it might portray the message that its possible for whole families to be inherently evil.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

This would have been cooler despite the fact it might portray the message that its possible for whole families to be inherently evil.

Yeah, the problem with the Penguin is that he was nasty to begin with, we saw (or didn't) what he did to the family cat. It kind of takes away from the idea that he wa abandoned purely as he is grotesque looking and thus it's not really his fault how he turned out.

 

[Bat-Mite]

If that couple were meant to be Bruce's parents, I'm sure Burton would have mentioned it on the DVD commentary. That's not the kind of thing you neglect to mention on something like that. :P So yeah, I'd say it's not them. Not to mention Penguin is supposed to be in his early 30's in the movie, and I'm pretty sure Bruce is a bit older than that in BR.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

If that couple were meant to be Bruce's parents, I'm sure Burton would have mentioned it on the DVD commentary. That's not the kind of thing you neglect to mention on something like that. :P So yeah, I'd say it's not them. Not to mention Penguin is supposed to be in his early 30's in the movie, and I'm pretty sure Bruce is a bit older than that in BR.

The Penguin is 33, the same age Jesus was when he died.