The Dark Knight Batman vs. Iron Man via chud.com (Batman as a Character)

Let's debate him publicly. Call him out, Saint.

Heh.
 
I have considered emailing him my post.
 
I am shocked and saddened that no one has yet gotten the "Devin is a girl's name" reference.
 
Of course we have. "Jayne is a girl's name." Somebody already mentioned it.
 
all im seeing from this is ...e lie batman..he doesnt..so who cares? just a matter of opinion
 
This sort of debate is far more stimulating than Joker's make-up. For me, thats why.


well i certainly agree, we pretty much killed the makeup topic,but this debate for me seems more just based off of personal taste and opinion rather than something huge like joker wearing makeup instead of perma white. he clearly has distaste for batman and he does bring up valid points,however i not changing my opinion of a character that i love simply because someoen else doesnt share my view :cwink:
 
well i certainly agree, we pretty much killed the makeup topic,but this debate for me seems more just based off of personal taste and opinion rather than something huge like joker wearing makeup instead of perma white. he clearly has distaste for batman and he does bring up valid points,however i not changing my opinion of a character that i love simply because someoen else doesnt share my view :cwink:

Well, most debates are centered around personal opinion. And this one goes deeper into the nuts and bolts of the human condition. That's always a worthwhile conversation.

Like, I love Batman, but if you ask me I think Bruce Wayne is the most spoiled person in the comic book universe. I'd be willing to have that debate with anyone. And hopefully everyone can walk away more enlightened.
 
Let's debate him publicly. Call him out, Saint.

Heh.

Good luck. The guy only has cajones behind the keys. He's a frequent guest on Attack of the Show on G4. During these live television discussions, his bark shrinks down to a light squeak.
 
Even if I agreed with his opinion of Batman's character as a whole, what he feels is a tired take on Batman that Nolan is giving, i.e. the grim psychopath it would only be tired to comic fans where it's still very fresh to a mainstream movie audience.

Second, he also misses the point that Nolan is crossing up genres with his version of Batman in a way no other comic film director has done. Most superhero films are 9 times out of 10 the same basic plot with different names, powers and costumes.

Nolan is creating a superhero film/thriller/crime drama in one package. That's why BB is my favorite comic movie.
 
Even if I agreed with his opinion of Batman's character as a whole, what he feels is a tired take on Batman that Nolan is giving, i.e. the grim psychopath it's would only be tired to comic fans where it's still very fresh to a mainstream movie audience.

Second, he also misses the point that Nolan is crossing up genres with his version of Batman in a way no other comic film director has done. Most superhero films are 9 times out of 10 the same basic plot with different names, powers and costumes.

Nolan is creating a superhero film/thriller/crime drama in one package. That's why BB is my favorite comic movie.
:up:
 
One thing that annoys me about a lot the negative comments I've read on "Batman Begins", is that to find flaws, the film is put under an extremely high level of scrutiny. Yet, the same people who dismiss "Begins" for these "flaws" will often cite preference for other superhero movies, which under the same criteria they submitted "Begins" too, would completely fall apart.

:up:

i have noticed this also applies to prerelease speculation. batfilms have always been subject to the highest possible scrutiny. i just chalk up to the fact that batman is the crown jewel of comic book mythology and consequently garners the most intense form of "protectiveness" by its fans.

I have considered emailing him my post.

you should. its very balanced and rhetoric free.
 
devin has his opinions and I respect them. I don't agree with all of them, but he has the right to say whatever he wants. I do like chud.com overall.

However, I think Devin comes off as very pretentious and overly cyncial at times. That's his style. I would image that he would come as one of "those guys" who has to be right. With everything. And in his writing, he has that same type of attitude. That's why I can see how some people can get POed by him.
 
Mega hyped yea, but using Begins as a barometer I can't see how anyone would think TDK will be more than a (great?) example of the genre. To me it did little different or better than its peers, even as an average comicbook film it's not hard to interpret things as gaping flaws. The general expectation was definitely for something fresh while Begins was being filmed, but I think its release should have put the idea of Nolan challenging convention to bed. Maybe they attempted to deconstruct the character, but it fell into all the cliches trying. Realistically I'm looking forward to a decent, predictable film with a Joker performance that deserved better. It'll probably be more enjoyable if I take TDK less seriously than it takes itself

You're a cool guy but it's so funny how during the 'leaks' and 'set reports' you were very reserved about your thoughts on the franchise. And all of sudden, you did a 180. It's shocking actually (not a bad thing)
 
devin has his opinions and I respect them.
I personally don't understand this custom of respecting opinions that are stupid. If an opinion is different from mine but remains well-reasoned and makes sense, sure, I'll respect that--but if it's different for ignorance, incomplete information, or incomplete or poor reasoning (as is the case in with some of Devin's points), then no, that doesn't deserve respect.

Only opinions that make sense deserve respect. An opinion that suggests Batman is a weak character by virtue of requiring a supporting cast, for example, does not deserve respect. That's doesn't make sense: it doesn't account for the basic realities of fiction which can be summarized as such: characters cannot exist in a void.

Likewise, the "opinion" that Batman is not "about" anything is an opinion rooted in the absence of the intellectual capacity (or perhaps simply the interest) to examine work critically, think intelligently, and come to conclusions about it. "Batman isn't about anything" is not an opinion that deserves respect, it's just poor.

I think we go a little too far expecting opinions to be "respected" or whatever else. Like anything, an opinion should be critically examined, and if it is stupid it should be labelled as such. An opinion that is well-reasoned, whether you agree or not, is the one that deserves respect.

Please don't think I'm jumping down your throat; your post was just an opportunity to mention something that doesn't make sense to me.
 
I personally don't understand this custom of respecting opinions that are stupid. If an opinion is different from mine for taste, perspective, or circumstances, sure, I'll respect that--but if it's different for ignorance, incomplete information, or incomplete or poor reasoning (as is the case in with some of Devin's points), then no, that doesn't deserve respect.

Only opinions that make sense deserve respect. An opinion that suggests Batman is a weak character by virtue of requiring a supporting cast, for example does not deserve respect. That's stupid, that doesn't account for the basic realities of fiction which can be summarized as such: characters cannot exist in a void.

Likewise, the "opinion" that Batman is not "about" anything is an opinion rooted in the absence of the intellectual capacity (or perhaps simply the interest) to examine work critically, think intelligently, and come to conclusions about it. "Batman isn't about anything" is not an opinion that deserves respect, it's just poor.

I think we go a little too far expecting opinions to be "respected" or whatever else. Like anything, an opinion should be critically examined, and if it's stupid it should be labelled as such. An opinion that is well-reasoned, whether you agree or not, is the one that deserves respect.

Please don't think I'm jumping down your throat; your post was just an opportunity to mention something that doesn't make sense to me.

I just re-read Devin's article. I mean, again, he is very pretentious. I read what Guard had to say, and I agree what he said.

I may have to backtrack a bit. Devin has that personality, as it seems, that there's so many contradictions to his points, etc. I just think he's just Marvel guy. Devin is nobody special, that's why I don't worry too much on what he thinks or say. I prefer Nick or the other CHUD guys because at least there's some warmth in their writing.

What worries me is that he may not give Dark Knight a fair review, unless he surprises me.
 
If I got paid for watching movies and meeting celebrities, I probably wouldn't be so pissy about everything.

Sorry...just some sour grapes. :o
 
Please, Please can we go back to debating the Joker's makeup. At least that's on topic.
 
I just re-read Devin's article. I mean, again, he is very pretentious. I read what Guard had to say, and I agree what he said.

I may have to backtrack a bit. Devin has that personality, as it seems, that there's so many contradictions to his points, etc. I just think he's just Marvel guy. Devin is nobody special, that's why I don't worry too much on what he thinks or say. I prefer Nick or the other CHUD guys because at least there's some warmth in their writing.

What worries me is that he may not give Dark Knight a fair review, unless he surprises me.
Well, I don't care that he's pretentious--I'm too much of a jerk to fault other people on their tone. It's the fact that his arguments don't make sense that's the problem, as I explained in my original post.
 
I'm going to address the major claims of the article.



The author assigns a trait of all characters to Batman specifically, as a negative. Characters cannot exist in a vacuum. A supporting cast is necessary in all but the rarest instances to stimulate character advancement and give the character people to sound of on, so the entire story isn't told in monologue.

This is simply the nature of comics: changes are few, and sudden. You will always get a decade or two of stagnation followed by sudden, sharp advancement. That's just how the business works.


The degree to which batman should be relatable on the superficial level is open for debate. It is important for him to be relatable as representing the internal struggles of humanity--it is less important for us to say "Yeah, he fights crime because his parents died--I relate to that."



This is the best part. What a composite character like Batman is "about" is as much up to the reader as it is to the individual writing him at any given time. The inability of the author to extract meaning from the character says more about him than it does about Batman.

On the most fundamental levels, Batman is about two things: first, human power and independency; and second, the ethical struggle inherent in human existence, which can be boiled down to "do the ends justify the means."

On the first note, Batman has always represented--though not intentionally, I imagine--atheistic sensibilities where other superheroes normally reflect theistic sensibilities. The hero who is given a miraculous gift of power to defend the world reflects the mentality that there will always be someone to watch over us--that God is there to protect us and save us. Superman is a Christ child from the heavens, Wonder Woman was forged by the gods themselves. They represents absolutes: they are morally complete, paragons who come down from the heavens to protect us from evil. They did not need tragedy to shape them, they simply knew what had to be done, and they do it.

Batman, on the other hand, contains a message very different: that there is no one to save us, that God will not protect us, and we will not be supported by divinity or the inherent good of the universe in our struggles. Batman reflects the sensibility that ultimate moral responsibility is on the shoulders of mankind, and we must determine this code and execute it accordingly, because no one else will do it for us. We have to make our own heroes and protect ourselves.

The second point I mentioned follows from this. Batman is frequently the voice of mankind among the superpowered: he is the voice of dissent that insists that superhumanity cannot make decisions for humanity. He insists that the burden of moral decisions should be on mankind. He is not trusting of the superfolk and the authority they seem to think they have. This is the second point: because of this, he represents completely our own struggle to do what we believe is good, and how far we go to achieve these ends, because he does not delegate responsibility to anyone besides humanity. He does not say "What would Superman do" the way some people ask "What would Jesus do?" He doesn't recognize any authority besides humanity when making the decisions that affect us, and accordingly the responsibility to determine what is right or wrong, and the struggles that come with it, all rest squarely on man.

To illustrate this struggle, he represents the pinnacle of humanity: noble, self-sacrificing to the absolute, dedicated, the peak of intelligence, strength, and skill, with an unwavering dedication to what is right and just. At the same time, he represents the absolute bottom of humanity: he is ruled by suffering, dependent on violence, driven at least in part by all of our darker natures: vengeance, hate, anger.

Accordingly, he is constantly at odds with himself and his mission. There is a part of him that is the noble pacifist, who abhors violence and seeks peace through peace, and the part of him that is the vengeful criminal, the part that feels compelled to go out and hurt, to punish, who seeks peace through war. Fundamentally he is our own struggle to find our moral center, our balance. To what degree to we use diplomacy to seek peace, and to what degree do we enforce it?

He also represents the struggle between reason and emotion. Ostensibly, Batman seems to be the ultimate rational thinker: giving no consideration to faith or emotion. But at his core, he is driven by pure, unadulterated emotion with no consideration for reason: his mission, to any rational man, is fruitless, but his emotion refuses to let him leave it be. He cannot rationally justify his rule of non-lethality, it is rooted in emotion, his absolutism and inability to compromise, the childish heart that can't bear to see anyone die. He is at once the ultimate optimist and the ultimate pessimist.

So, in other words, what Batman is "about" is being human. I can't imagine a more relevant theme than this, and it disturbs me that an individual who, ostensibly, has taken time to think on the matter and write this article has not noticed this.


Curious--this sounds like what he did in Batman Begins.



Reality, no--psychology, yes. Every villain should reflect a fundamentally different philosophy on being human, and accordingly psychology is critical. The villains are meant to be the men that Batman could have (or could still) become. The Joker is the man that accepted violence as the truth of the universe, where Batman is the man who absolutely refused it. Two-Face is the man who could not reconcile that conflict, and split himself in two for it. Scarecrow is Batman's dark emotion, Freeze is his cold caculation. I said that Batman is mankind's struggle to find his moral center, the blanace between good, evil, emotion, logic, and each of these villains represents what Batman would become were he not balanced, each is an extreme version of one of these elements oh human life.

Because they are meant to represent extreme, they do not need to be realistic. They can be incredible, impossible, fantastic borderline supernatural things, but the core will always be there, and that is their root in humanity.



This is one of the few sentiments in the article that make sense. Certainly there are a myriad of possibilities--not to take anything away from the realistic approach, but many are extremely intriguing and I want to see them in future films.
Saint I really like your post, not as a response to that guys article but as more of a deeper understanding of a character. I love the part about Superman being a god, Wonder Woman forged from the gods and Batman the most cynical.
 
Saint I really like your post, not as a response to that guys article but as more of a deeper understanding of a character. I love the part about Superman being a god, Wonder Woman forged from the gods and Batman the most cynical.

I agree. The way you explained Batman's character was very... interesting, fancy that.
 
Please, Please can we go back to debating the Joker's makeup. At least that's on topic.

Do you ever do anything but post "Lock" pictures, or complain about off-topic/irrelevant threads?
 

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