Because I'm The Wrestling Thread, And I'm... Awesome!

[Wylie Times]

As did Jeff Jarrett and Chyna, and back then Jeff Hardy was a botch monkey and Triple H didn't even defend it on PPV. There was no prestige because the guys you listed that could have given it prestige (Benoit, Eddie, Edge and Angle) had the belt 5 minutes before passing it to someone else, and Jericho's main feud over the belt in that time was a frigging shemale.

And all of that is due to BOOKING. I'm not saying having a great worker hold the belt does help, but it's not the end all be all. A guy can only add prestige to the belt as much as the booking allows them to do so.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Okay, so you keep trying to knock on Del Rio for having no character other than being a smug rich guy - what exactly is Ziggler's character, other than being a smug dick head?

Seriously. Ziggler has WAY less going in the character department than Del Rio, and Del Rio has been around way less than Ziggler. Ziggler's entire character is based through Vickie. Ziggler has no character of his own, other than generic "smug athlete".

You can knock Del Rio's feud with Mysterio all you want, but that feud has been way more meaningful than anything Ziggler has been in. Ziggler hasn't even been in a feud. It's been random face opponent after random face opponent with absolutely no build what so ever.

His 2 most meaningful "feuds", if you can call them that because you can't, were a 2 match series against Daniel Bryan (or was it 3?) that didn't even have any belts on the line, and a 2 match series against John Cena that had absolutely nothing to do with Ziggler or the IC Title, and everything to do with Vickie Guerrero and Cena v. Punk.

Yes, he's a good in ring performer. I give him that. But a main eventer has to be more than that. A main eventer has to be a good in ring worker, as WELL as a good character. Even the examples that people cite like Bret Hart, guys who weren't necessarily The Rock or Austin on the mic, they had good -characters- that you had an investment in. These guys were more than just good in ring workers, or they were more than just good talkers. They were good -CHARACTERS-, guys that you believed could be main eventers and win any title in the company against any guy in the company. That's something that Ziggler isn't. He has no character. There's been nothing to develop Ziggler as a character to push him into the main event. He's a good worker. That's it. He's had zero meaningful feuds, he's had zero development as a character. He doesn't belong in the main event.

At this point, an IC title feud for Del Rio is a step down. He's already feuded with guys higher on the food chain than Kofi. WTF is a feud with Kofi going to do, when he already dominated the **** out of Mysterio? Del Rio needs to be the one getting the "Royal Rumble" test against Edge, not Ziggler. Ziggler is the one who needs to be in the Royal Rumble, and have his character built for a few months until he wins a MITB at WrestleMania, then can dabble in the main event for a bit, while building that main event credibility. Del Rio already has main event credibility. Ziggler is nothing more than the most recent random IC champ, who's had a handful of really good matches that were built on elements that had absolutely nothing to do with him.

 

[BlackLantern]

I would sooner see Husky Harris in a main event than Dolph Ziggler

 

[Project862006]

how was Dolph not in a feud?

- he beat Kofi for the title on July 28th(SD Taping) - August 6th SD
- defended it against Kofi at Summer Slam
- defended it again against Kofi At Night of champions
- Fought Kofi in a 3 way with Swagger at TLC
- looses it to Kofi this Friday

he has basically been feuding with Kofi since August

 

[BlackLantern]

and how serious should anyone take Kofi, at this point?

 

[Wylie Times]

Okay, so you keep trying to knock on Del Rio for having no character other than being a smug rich guy - what exactly is Ziggler's character, other than being a smug dick head?

Seriously. Ziggler has WAY less going in the character department than Del Rio, and Del Rio has been around way less than Ziggler. Ziggler's entire character is based through Vickie. Ziggler has no character of his own, other than generic "smug athlete".

You're right. I don't know if I'd say Del Rio has MUCH more character development but it's not like Dolph is a character that everyone is familiar with. He's very much defined by his relationship with Vickie.

To be fair though Del Rio has gotten vignettes and much more mic time.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Okay, so you keep trying to knock on Del Rio for having no character other than being a smug rich guy - what exactly is Ziggler's character, other than being a smug dick head?

Seriously. Ziggler has WAY less going in the character department than Del Rio, and Del Rio has been around way less than Ziggler. Ziggler's entire character is based through Vickie. Ziggler has no character of his own, other than generic "smug athlete".

You can knock Del Rio's feud with Mysterio all you want, but that feud has been way more meaningful than anything Ziggler has been in. Ziggler hasn't even been in a feud. It's been random face opponent after random face opponent with absolutely no build what so ever.

His 2 most meaningful "feuds", if you can call them that because you can't, were a 2 match series against Daniel Bryan (or was it 3?) that didn't even have any belts on the line, and a 2 match series against John Cena that had absolutely nothing to do with Ziggler or the IC Title, and everything to do with Vickie Guerrero and Cena v. Punk.

Yes, he's a good in ring performer. I give him that. But a main eventer has to be more than that. A main eventer has to be a good in ring worker, as WELL as a good character. Even the examples that people cite like Bret Hart, guys who weren't necessarily The Rock or Austin on the mic, they had good -characters- that you had an investment in. These guys were more than just good in ring workers, or they were more than just good talkers. They were good -CHARACTERS-, guys that you believed could be main eventers and win any title in the company against any guy in the company. That's something that Ziggler isn't. He has no character. There's been nothing to develop Ziggler as a character to push him into the main event. He's a good worker. That's it. He's had zero meaningful feuds, he's had zero development as a character. He doesn't belong in the main event.

At this point, an IC title feud for Del Rio is a step down. He's already feuded with guys higher on the food chain than Kofi. WTF is a feud with Kofi going to do, when he already dominated the **** out of Mysterio? Del Rio needs to be the one getting the "Royal Rumble" test against Edge, not Ziggler. Ziggler is the one who needs to be in the Royal Rumble, and have his character built for a few months until he wins a MITB at WrestleMania, then can dabble in the main event for a bit, while building that main event credibility. Del Rio already has main event credibility. Ziggler is nothing more than the most recent random IC champ, who's had a handful of really good matches that were built on elements that had absolutely nothing to do with him.

My point was Ziggler and Del Rio are both very basic in the character department, and while you try to make the Rey feud with Del Rio meaningful it really isn't, it's got no heat. Ziggler putting together a great series of matches including two with the biggest star in the industry, has built him as a credible contender, being a smug prick is all he needs character wise.

You see the problem here Nell is you are so obsessed with treating these guys like soap characters you forget that clearly a large portion of the WWE audience view them as athletes as well, and Ziggler is getting the shot because of what he has delivered, whether you are into his simple smug jock character or not, it is over and the WWE and Vince are testing him out as opposed to a guy who's only advantage over Ziggler is his accent and rich boy gimmick, he needs a resume of matches before he gets a world title shot.

 

[Wylie Times]

how was Dolph not in a feud?

- he beat Kofi for the title on July 28th(SD Taping) - August 6th SD
- defended it against Kofi at Summer Slam
- defended it again against Kofi At Night of champions
- Fought Kofi in a 3 way with Swagger at TLC
- looses it to Kofi this Friday

he has basically been feuding with Kofi since August

Yeah Kofi and Ziggler have been feuding all year. It just hasn't been that great of a feud because it's basically just been them having the same match with the same outcome over and over again.

Nobody was heavily praising Ziggler like this until his matches against Daniel Bryan and Cena....He was being praised but nobody was talking about him main eventing WM or being ready for the main event.

I like Ziggler but I think you guys are going overboard.

 

[BlackLantern]

can't we all just get along?

 

[Hunter Rider]

And all of that is due to BOOKING. I'm not saying having a great worker hold the belt does help, but it's not the end all be all. A guy can only add prestige to the belt as much as the booking allows them to do so.

And booking isn't worth **** if the guy can't work, case in point Drew, he got to beat faces clean, got to talk a lot, had a feud with the GM, got results overturned as Vince's personally endorsed chosen one, and yet no one cared, why? because he's still crap in the ring and therefore the belt garnered no prestige. As I say, hand in hand go talent and booking, without BOTH no title has prestige.

I would sooner see Husky Harris in a main event than Dolph Ziggler

Here's a spoon, try stirring some more.

 

[Metallo]

But if Del Rio won the feud with Rey, then wouldn't a feud with Kofi be a step -down-?

Rey > Kofi, in every way.

And that's the point that I'm making - Del Rio was in a feud with Rey Mysterio and looked good doing it. Ziggler hasn't been in a feud, period. He's just had title defenses against random mid card faces, often times those IC matches are booked the week before the PPV with absolutely no build what so ever.

I'm not saying that Ziggler isn't good in the ring. In ring, he's been impressing me as of late, and I like his move set. But his character? I have absolutely ZERO investment in his character. Ziggler is the one that needs the meaningful upper mid card feud before moving to the main event, not Del Rio. Del Rio already had that feud, and proved he belongs. He's better on the mic than Ziggler, and a good in ring worker as well.

Ziggler needs to build his character a bit before I give a crap about his main event push.

Kofis the IC champion. He's not BETTER than Rey but he has something that is more valuable than a win over Rey Mysterio. If Del Rio can gain the IC title he validates his place along names like Savage, Michaels, Piper, The Rock Austin, HHH, etc. Even Rey who was a former IC champion. it adds MORE to Del Rios resume.

Del Rio hasn't been built up to look on the level of an Edge or Cena yet, men who have fought wars in the ring.

Cena has had Hulk Hogan and Shawn Michaels both raising his hand in the ring as champion. These guys have been built of as for sure future HOFers. Del Rio just suddenly jumping in without the same buildup some of those guys had would look silly.

Edge pioneered TLC, He beat hardcore legend Mick Foley at his own game, held tag gold with Hulk Hogan as his partner, and has stood face to face against The Undertaker in HITC, a match Taker pioneered. Edge won the first MITB.

The idea of him beating Edge after ONE won feud is ridiculous. He beat a man half his size. And what else? Not much else. Its not like Del Rio has had a series of good feuds. He's had ONE. Storyline wise he hasn't even proven he CAN win a title.

 

[Project862006]

i just think it is time for his due the guy has been with the WWE since 2004 not 8 months like Del Rio

 

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah Kofi and Ziggler have been feuding all year. It just hasn't been that great of a feud because it's basically just been them having the same match with the same outcome over and over again.

Nobody was heavily praising Ziggler like this until his matches against Daniel Bryan and Cena....He was being praised but nobody was talking about him main eventing WM or being ready for the main event.

I like Ziggler but I think you guys are going overboard.

The feud between Del Rio and Rey hasn't been any better than Kofi/Ziggler though has it? both are fairly bland stryline-wise.

Those matches took him to another level without doubt, but at least he has some matches of the highest quality to point to, I mean you don't think it's overboard to be claiming Del Rio should be winning the title already based on a rehash of JBL's gimmick?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

But, soap characters is exactly what these guys are. They are glorified stunt men in a soap opera for men.

Yes, they are incredibly athletic, and I certainly appreciate the athleticism and the work these guys put in. But if I was watching wrestling for the athletic competition, well, I'd go watch MMA, boxing, or amateur wrestling. Because those are actual legitimate, credible athletic competitions.

Wrestling is not. Wrestling is scripted athleticism. Therefore, I want to see characters and stories to go along with the athleticism, and if a guy can't reel me in with his character, then he shouldn't get pushed to the main storyline.

There is a reason why wrestling is on channels like USA, SyFy, and Spike, and not ESPN. Because it's scripted, it's theatrical. It's a soap, as you say. It's about character.

It's a soap opera about athletic competition, so yes, these guys definitely need to have it in the athletic department, but they need to have good characters as well.

YES, the character and the soap opera aspect can get taken way over the top. Mark Henry and Mae Young anyone? Even when I thought WWF wrestling could do no wrong, I was left going "WTF???" at that. And that's certainly not the only time.

But seriously, there's more than just athletic competition going on in wrestling. If it was all about athletic competition, then nobody would watch wrestling because it's scripted. It's not real athletic competition. It's athletic theatre.

 

[BlackLantern]

what Nell said

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Kofis the IC champion. He's not BETTER than Rey but he has something that is more valuable than a win over Rey Mysterio. If Del Rio can gain the IC title he validates his place along namse like Savage, Michales, Piper, The Rock Austin, HHH, etc. Even Rey who was a former IC champion. it adds MORE to DelRios resume.

Del Rio hasn't been built up to look on the level of an Edge or Cena yet, men who have fought wars inthe ring.

Cena has had Hulk Hogan and Shawn Mciahels both raising his hand in the ring as champion. These gusy have been built of as for sure future HOFers. Del Rio just suddenly jumping in without the same buildup some of those guys had would look silly.

Edge pioneered TLC, He beat hardcore legend Mick Foley at his own game, held tag godl with Hulk Hogan as his partner, and hs stood face to face against The Undertaker in HITC, a match Taker pioneered. Edge won the first MITB.

The idea of him beating Edge after ONE won feud is ridiclous. He beat a man half his size. And what else? Not much else. Its not like Del Rio has had a series of good fueds. He's had ONE. Storyline wise he hasn't even proven he CAN win a title.

I didn't say anything about Del Rio BEATING Edge, I said he's the one who needs to be FEUDING with Edge, not Ziggler.

 

[Metallo]

Okay, so you keep trying to knock on Del Rio for having no character other than being a smug rich guy - what exactly is Ziggler's character, other than being a smug dick head?

Seriously. Ziggler has WAY less going in the character department than Del Rio, and Del Rio has been around way less than Ziggler. Ziggler's entire character is based through Vickie. Ziggler has no character of his own, other than generic "smug athlete".

You can knock Del Rio's feud with Mysterio all you want, but that feud has been way more meaningful than anything Ziggler has been in. Ziggler hasn't even been in a feud. It's been random face opponent after random face opponent with absolutely no build what so ever.

His 2 most meaningful "feuds", if you can call them that because you can't, were a 2 match series against Daniel Bryan (or was it 3?) that didn't even have any belts on the line, and a 2 match series against John Cena that had absolutely nothing to do with Ziggler or the IC Title, and everything to do with Vickie Guerrero and Cena v. Punk.

Yes, he's a good in ring performer. I give him that. But a main eventer has to be more than that. A main eventer has to be a good in ring worker, as WELL as a good character. Even the examples that people cite like Bret Hart, guys who weren't necessarily The Rock or Austin on the mic, they had good -characters- that you had an investment in. These guys were more than just good in ring workers, or they were more than just good talkers. They were good -CHARACTERS-, guys that you believed could be main eventers and win any title in the company against any guy in the company. That's something that Ziggler isn't. He has no character. There's been nothing to develop Ziggler as a character to push him into the main event. He's a good worker. That's it. He's had zero meaningful feuds, he's had zero development as a character. He doesn't belong in the main event.

At this point, an IC title feud for Del Rio is a step down. He's already feuded with guys higher on the food chain than Kofi. WTF is a feud with Kofi going to do, when he already dominated the **** out of Mysterio? Del Rio needs to be the one getting the "Royal Rumble" test against Edge, not Ziggler. Ziggler is the one who needs to be in the Royal Rumble, and have his character built for a few months until he wins a MITB at WrestleMania, then can dabble in the main event for a bit, while building that main event credibility. Del Rio already has main event credibility. Ziggler is nothing more than the most recent random IC champ, who's had a handful of really good matches that were built on elements that had absolutely nothing to do with him.

Del Rio picked on the little guy that EVERYBODY picks on. Thats REALLY impressive. It may have been more impressive if Knox, Kane, Big SHow, and others hadn't done it first. And he's using a gimmick that other guys did far better. He's a good talent but he hasn't done much to EARN a main event shot yet.

Some of the greatest names in the history of the business have held the IC title. How is Del Rio PROVING he's on the same level Randy Savage, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Steve Austinwere at one point a step down? If he can't even win the IC title what chance does he have of winning the world title? Its should be a LOT harder for him to beat Edge than it is for him to beat Kofi. Thats just plain logic.

 

[Project862006]

del rio's character is just more theatrical than Ziggler with pyro, fancy suits , nice cars , his own announcer,etc.

i certainly dont think he is a better character or a worse one for that matter than Dolph

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

But the fact is, he's ALREADY beat Mysterio, a guy who might get picked on by all the big bullies, but a guy who is a 2 time World Champion, and a guy who can hold his own in the ring with the big dogs like Undertaker, Edge, JBL, or whoever else. Del Rio has already beaten Mysterio, THAT'S how he shows he's on the same level as guys like Edge.

If he goes to feud with Kofi, there should be zero drama in it because he's already beaten guys who are better than Kofi. So yea, while he gets a meaningless IC Title reign on his resume, how is that a step up when he's already hung in the ring with, and defeated, former WORLD CHAMPIONS?

 

[Wylie Times]

The feud between Del Rio and Rey hasn't been any better than Kofi/Ziggler though has it? both are fairly bland stryline-wise.

The quality of the matches hasn't been any better but it's certainly been more personal and WWE has made a bigger deal out of it.

Those matches took him to another level without doubt, but at least he has some matches of the highest quality to point to, I mean you don't think it's overboard to be claiming Del Rio should be winning the title already based on a rehash of JBL's gimmick?

I didn't say anywhere that I think Del Rio should be winning the world title. As it is he's already a semi main eventer. My comments about Del Rio being in the Main Event is just me realizing that Vince is a big fan of his and it's the most likely thing to happen.

I don't think Dolph is any better than Del Rio as an all around performer.

 

[SuperJ]

sooo..........how tall do you think Daniel Bryan and Tyson Kidd really are?

I believe they're billed at 5'9" or 5'10", but they both look shorter than that.......

not to take anything away from either guy, as I enjoy seeing short(er) guys competing.............

 

[Metallo]

And all of that is due to BOOKING. I'm not saying having a great worker hold the belt does help, but it's not the end all be all. A guy can only add prestige to the belt as much as the booking allows them to do so.

Its both. But even if a guy is booked strong it won't last if he can't work or get people to care about him on his own.

Steve Austin is a guy who began to get over because of things he himself did, even when he wasn't booked the best. "Austin 3:16" wasn't something the writers came up with. Good Booking helps but good talent and good booking need each other.

If a guy is jobbed out and not given an opportunity to talk then its a lot harder for them to get over though.

Ahmed Johnson is another guy that was booked strong but he wasn't worth much of a damn otherwise...and he didn't last. Impressive at first but he eventually faded away.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Wrestling is scripted athleticism. Therefore, I want to see characters and stories to go along with the athleticism, and if a guy can't reel me in with his character, then he shouldn't get pushed to the main storyline.

It's a soap opera about athletic competition, so yes, these guys definitely need to have it in the athletic department, but they need to have good characters as well.

But seriously, there's more than just athletic competition going on in wrestling. If it was all about athletic competition, then nobody would watch wrestling because it's scripted. It's not real athletic competition. It's athletic theatre.

The main issue here is you are taking the idea that because YOU think a guy isn't ready and isn't interesting, he should be in the main event, however you are only one person and clearly the fan base and more importantly the WWE management feel Ziggler is firing on all fronts otherwise he wouldn't get the shot.

There is also the art of drawing people in by the matches you have, something you discount and think promos and soap opera angles supersede and discount the importance of the athlete to marry with the entertainer, that is fine but clearly WWE are still trying to allow the art of being a pro wrestler mean something.

I'll give you an example, The Rock, massively over without a doubt, but most of his matches bore me to tears unless he is in the ring with someone that can work and lead him to a good in ring story.

you are advocating giving a guy in Del Rio a push based on a JBL rip off gimmick and no good matches, as opposed to an equally over guy with a smug jock gimmick but plenty of high end matches.

 

[Project862006]

disagree with that i think dolph is a much better in ring performer

his matches with Kofi/Daniel Bryan/Kaval/Cena/ > all of Del Rio's matches so far

 

[Wylie Times]

del rio's character is just more theatrical than Ziggler with pyro, fancy suits , nice cars , his own announcer,etc.

i certainly dont think he is a better character or a worse one for that matter than Dolph

He's a better character....How well was Dolph doing before they paired him with Vickie? You may not like Del Rio but he's been getting legit heat since his debut. Ziggler didn't first start getting heat till he was being associated with Jericho, then he didn't get it back again until they paired him up with Vickie.