Discussion in 'Black Panther' started by samsnee, Feb 13, 2018.
So... in your mind now BP should never kill ever?
No, that's not what I said. Again, had Klaue been killed mid fight, it'd have been fine. Had he taken him back and put him on trial, and then executed him, it'd have been fine. As it is in the movie, he was going to kill him in cold blood after capturing him.
Had CW not happened, I'd also have no issue. As it stands now, however, it goes against his progression from that movie.
I do agree that T'Challa being about to execute Klaue right after he had beaten him seemed like a very emotionally driven thing, which is exactly the kind of vengeful action that he learned to let go of in Civil War.
Caught this last night finally. It was okay. Not great, not terrible.
I thought it had the POTENTIAL to be great but it never quite gets there. It sets up some really interesting things and yet it doesn't really pay them off. In the end it devolved into a dumb superhero movie with a big dumb fight at the end. I also thought that it was too politically inconsistent. T'Challa especially acts like a liberal one moment and then a conservative the next.
Don't see how it's 'groundbreaking' in any sense of the word. Without the knowledge of the hooplah surrounding it's release I think in years time it will be seen as pretty run of the mill superhero flick.
Also this might be a minority opinion, but I really didn't love the sister character. She felt like Poochie to me.
Another thing... is Black Panther kind of a generic superhero to anyone else? Not T'Challa... but the actual Black Panther persona? It feels like 90% of what makes him special comes down to the suit but he's not even responsible for that. Beyond that he's just a typical 'fighter' type superhero that can leap kind of far. The Panther scenes were among the least interesting in the entire movie for me.
Having said that I do think it's one of the better MCU movies. It wasn't offensively dumb like a lot of them and it at least strives to be about something greater. And while he isn't the most compelling character around, I appreciate that T'Challa wasn't a smarmy a**hole like the rest of the MCU roster. It's refreshing to see a hero be an adult for once.
My 2 cents.
I find it interesting that some people seem to think that progression by default prevents regression. That's not real life. We improve, we fail. And on it goes. So maybe T'Challa was having a bad day. Thing is he didn't even kill Klaue. He stopped.
And ironically, later, Killmonger threw it in his face that he was a weak king for not killing Klaue and that Killmonger was able to do what T'Challa couldn't. Had T'Challa actually *killed* Klaue then the rest of the movie would not have happened. Granted he'd have a whole other mess on his hands but he wouldn't have lost Wakanda and some of the tribe leaders might have even admired him for it. W'Kabi certainly would have.
Again being a King is a lot different than just having to answer for your own personal actions. T'Challa is still figuring all this out in this film. I don't see any issue here.
While I do agree that regression is part of real life, it's a lot more difficult to pull off in movies with a character who's had 2 hours of screen time. I've barely seen his progress, only to see the previous ark, which was minimal screen time to begin with, negated 20 minutes into the movie.
If it works for you, great. I'm certainly not trying to tell you not to enjoy the movie for it. But it doesn't work for me, and the movie is a little bit worse for it.
On first viewing I found BP to be a pretty bland character, but he grew on me upon second viewing today. He still doesnt get any real opportunity to drive the narrative in his own movie (no surprise since they didnt reshoot the film in the last 3 weeks!) but this time I was much more able to get into Bosemans at time befuddled BP.
In fact most of what I didnt like was softened on second viewing, with the one exception being the green screen work behind the BP/Killmonger falls fight. That got worse.
Had my 2nd viewing tonight, enjoyed it more 2nd time, score has gone up to 9/10
Here's my review
I found the movie extremely overrated, nothing special about it in any facet. Boseman is boring, Jordan has one mode. Every single story beat is beyond predictable. In the same way that Doctor Strange was said to be Iron Man again, this is Thor redone. I have zero interest in what some have termed its "groundbreaking" nature (black superheroes and black superhero movies have existed before), so taken away from that hype that has made people force themselves to **** their pants, the movie doesn't stand up. It's the same as any other middling MCU movie, worse than most really. I do give it points for having a black Big Bad. In most of these movies which have a black villain, a white villain is behind them pulling their strings. While hatred of whites courses through the movie, it's admirable that a black man is the main villain.
Yeah can't really take any opinions seriously with those last couple of lines
I took it seriously, which is why I'm genuinely shocked.
aw finally saw the movie
Was pretty cold weather recently so I couldnt force myself out except for work ))))
Definitely didnt dissappoint. Deserves all the $$$$$$$$$
One of the most beautiful Marvel movies just as trailer expected. I was looking forward the most to OST & prod design & it again didn't let me down lol even if I was overwhelmed & need a couple more views to just absorb all the details, masks, costumes etc etc Probably will have to wait for DVD to pause a lot to admire all the beauty t:
Speaking of beauty I was constantly struck by Lupita's every frame (lmao I hope its OK to say it here considering how it seems in US you cant say anything about female beauty without being bashed ))) to me its a compliment still & doesnt undermine acting talent at all ) Great that there was a romance in the movie for suckers like me (I didnt expect that & was pleasantly surprised)
In terms of acting I liked everyone but ironically Boseman himself...he was just there...
Except the father/son scenes that were extremely emotional to me (shed a few tears even)
The guy who played M'Baku, Danai Gurira, Jordan & Letitia Wright were standouts for me (Shuri meet up with Tony would be epic! + I loved the dubbing actress for her She sounded exactly like I imagine her to sound).
Oh & Andy Serkis it goes without saying (what is love! baby dont hurt meeee)
In terms of themes I did like the father/son one the most. Like I said I even got too emotional couple of times completely unexpectedly especially between Erik & his father.
Lots of parallels with Thor again which I liked
Still prefer Thor Ragnarok tho He's my king
The last scene with T'Challa & Erik again was super emotional. & I dont see how Erik can be viewed as a straight up villain ...
Speaking to IcedOver the real villain WAS white after all )))) Again on the other hand Martin's character IS white & he is a good character in the movie so I didnt feel the movie promoted hatred for the white ppl at all ...
Regarding the negative & neutral comments on the movie they have all the rights to exist. we're all different. Hopefully those people wont be automatically named as racist for daring not to like a movie (like on some sites you were labelled as hating women when you dared not to worship WonderWoman )
I find the different opinions of Boseman's portrayal of T'Challa fascinating. Me personally, I liked his subtle, reserved version of BP.
I always wonder if folks are just too accustomed to the "talky, quippy hero" that has led the majority of Marvel movies.
Has nothing to do with other MCU heroes being talky/quippy.
He was just bland/stiff, particularly compared to characters in his own movie. It didn't help that the Dora Milaje (especially Okoye) were more badass and charismatic. Klaue was more fun in a villain sort of sense. Even though I didn't like Killmonger even he had more energy.
EDIT: Hell I'd even go far as to say I'd rather watch a full movie of Winston Duke's M'Baku instead of Boseman's T'Challa.
I don't see it as a regression; Zemo and Klaue are very different villains.
Zemo was driven by the loss of his family; he deserved punishment, but was sympathetic in T'Challa's eyes. The decision not to kill was in part T'Challa seeing himself in Zemo.
Klaue, on the other hand, was simply a dangerous, rabid animal to be destroyed.
Are you going to disregard my opinion because it doesn't line up with yours?
Like I said, everyone else in the movie was throwing quips around left and right. T'Challa isn't that guy. He's a king that let's his actions speak louder than his words. He did the same thing in Civil War. The best example of that is when Hawkeye starts talking to them prior to fighting and T'Challa simply says "I don't care".
He's not an overly verbose guy. He's not even really like that in the comics either.
In Civil War* It was somewhat strange seeing how they lightened him up for his solo outing whilst still keeping his vindictive rage.
I think he was still reserved and subtle. He was "lightened up" because:
1. He was back home.
2. He was righteously enraged during Civil War because his father had just been killed. In BP he was becoming king and IMMEDIATELY dealing with threats like Klaw and Killmonger.
Still weird. He's in the middle of an intense killing spree and then he has a hard time talking to Nakia or that he has such a child-like bond with his little sister.
He makes some sound arguments. I agree with ideas in that 3rd Act especially.
He makes some good points why the fight isn't great, but his alternatives takes away the emotional impact the movie made in the fights.
If you do what he says we don't get the Okoye/W'Kabi moment
The planes flying away would have little stakes
Also the Killmonger/T'Challa ending scene wouldn't have been nearly as impactful.
Also the whole point is that they keep the balance of tribal/ technology.
He's suggesting corny speeches and too much deus ex machina.
They simply should have just executed the fights/cgi better.
His ideas improves the fight quality, but they strip away the meaning.
Very sound arguments & I agree with most of what he said.