• The upgrade to XenForo 2.3.7 has now been completed. Please report any issues to our administrators.

Bought/Thought 10/29

Of course Odin always cut Loki a break; he was Loki's father. Thor wasn't so it made sense that Thor didn't offer Loki as many chances. Loki's schemes often had to be undone by Thor so it often seemed to Thor that Loki was a constant nuisance and threat. I don't see why Thor feels such a duty to Loki; honoring his father's wishes is one thing, but Thor wants to be his own god.
He's not honoring Odin's wishes. I was explaining why Loki was allowed back into Asgard all those other times. Thor, as I said, let Loki back in because the slate is effectively wiped clean and this is a fresh start for all of Asgard. Thor's a legislator as well as a warrior now, and he's made it law that there's a de facto amnesty for the past. In order to honor that, all he can judge Loki on is what he knows Loki's done now, which is nothing.
But Thor isn't a hypocrite when he feels it is fine to slay norse monsters? When Balder got into trouble with the cops for killing some orcs, Thor didn't feel the orcs were denied due justice. He has been concerned that plenty of Asgardian monsters could also be unleashed on Earth as well. Would he offer them a chance to live in Asgard if they asked? Would it even occur to him?
No, but then, they've never been Asgardian citizens. Loki is a member of the Asgardian community and falls under that general amnesty I spoke of.
My point is that being a ruler in any position, president or king, requires some degree of hypocrisy.
Not such overt hypocrisy, especially in a culture like Asgard's, which values honor and nobility.
Thor out of all people should be aware that in the end Loki will seek to undermine him at least, destroy him and Asgard at most, and meddle with Midguard in unfriendly ways in-between. Why should Thor decide to be "inhumanely just" against the ONE BEING that out of any would seek to topple his New Asgard?
Because again, as far as Thor knows, Loki's being honest this time and he's honor-bound to keep his word that the Asgardians are getting a fresh start. I'm sure he suspects Loki will betray him again, but he can't prove it, and that sort of burden is on his shoulders as the king of his people. If he casts Loki out just 'cause after he's already declared an amnesty on his past crimes, he's essentially inviting others to follow his example, which would be detrimental to his society. That's the nature of leadership: Thor's actions set the tone for all of Asgard now. If he reveals himself to be dishonest by casting Loki out for past sins when the past is supposed to be dead and buried, he's essentially a liar and no better than Loki himself.
It's like when you watch a TV show, and you may like it, and see the hero allow the villain to settle into a place that the plot requires. It may be the best written plot in the universe. But the viewer will have usually known better from the start, and may shake their head with a wry smirk and mumble, "Idiot."
Yeah, and that's where the drama comes from. We all know Loki's already working against Thor, but Thor can't prove it so he's honor-bound to respect the laws he's put out there and leave Loki alone. You're effectively asking the characters to overcome dramatic irony here.
When Thor found Loki, he was encountering "meddling" with reviving people.
But Thor doesn't know that.
He still hasn't found Sif.
But Thor can't tie that to Loki in any meaningful way.
The orcs were led by Loki into going outside to involve Balder with the cops
Thor doesn't know that.
and Loki was working with Dr. Doom.
Thor doesn't know that, either.
Now Thor doesn't know all thus, but c'mon. If a wall crumbles at random in New Asgard, all eyes should be on Loki.
They should and probably are, but Loki's covered his tracks well enough that nobody can prove anything. That's why criminals are so dangerous: the burden of proof is on the law. Punishing people for crimes you can't prove is a clear sign of an unjust, corrupt society, which isn't what Thor is after here.
It's like He-Man allowing Skeletor to live in Castle Greyskull with a mere verbal promise to behave and a change in gender, with full access to all of his family & friends and ever chamber of the lair.
And Thor would be the equivalent of an Asgardian Vic Mackey if he just tossed Loki out on his ass on mere suspicion.
It's like the X-Men allowing Magneto to join the team and then being surprised when he starts to kill some humans or plot to take over the world.
The X-Men did accept that Magneto had reformed and even allowed him to teach children, and that was just a bunch of normal people with a personal feud. They don't have the burden of being the example for an entire society of people on their shoulders like Thor does.
The biggest problem of all this is that IT IS COMING FROM LOKI and everyone looks like a complete ****** for listening to him. It's like if a dark secret about the U.S. President was revealed by Red Skull and Captain America swallowed it without a moment's hesitation.
Balder did hesitate. He denied and denied and denied Loki at first. Then Loki suggested that Balder was Odin's illegitimate son and Thor confirmed it. That's the key to the current predicament Balder finds himself in. He loves Thor and wants to believe in him, but he sees truth in what Loki's saying because he's too intelligent and noble not to, and he already knows Thor lied to him about one majorly important matter. That's bound to rock his faith in Thor a bit, and that tiny bit of doubt is all that Loki needs to plant more seeds. So, in reality, it's like if a dark secret about the US president were revealed by the Red Skull and Captain America shrugged it off until the president himself admitted it. The situation's not so clear-cut in that case, is it?
Like I said above, I think the Loki situation should have been handled differently. The stuff with Balder is potentially interesting, but if only Loki were in some alternate form and they didn't KNOW that this newfound advisor was Loki him/herself, they wouldn't appear to be silly for believing him. Maybe if Loki had somehow swapped bodies with Sif or something so that Thor's bethrothed was thought to be an ex-villain while their longtime ally is really the enemy.
I suppose the case could've been strengthened with body swaps or other contrivances, but Heimdall would probably be able to see through that. Sif's his sister, so if Loki f***ed with her, he'd probably kill him himself. Regardless, I'm sure it could've been handled differently, but what we got, if you really examine it logically from the gods' perspective without the constant "Loki is evil and everything he says is a lie, period" bias, there's a pretty strong story being presented here. A very deep, subtle layer of intrigue and doubt has been laid over Asgard's seemingly utopian veneer, and I think you're dismissing it too quickly in black-and-white terms that the characters simply can't use. Loki, as far as Thor or Balder or anyone else in Asgard knows right now, is clean. His past sins are meant to be forgotten, although we've seen that that doesn't mean much to some people, and he's not "violating his parole," essentially, in any way that any of the other Asgardians can see.

It sort of reminds me of Checkmate, in fact. Amanda Waller was appointed as the White Queen but turned out to be the villain--which we all knew she would based on her past misdeeds--but none of the other Checkmate royals could prove anything about her actions at the time, so they were powerless to move against her. That same sort of political intrigue is playing out amongst the gods, which brings a really interesting dimension to them that they lacked before.
It isn't helped by frustration with this subplot taking 1-3 issues longer than it needs to in order to go anywhere dramatic.
And the issues are taking 2 to 3 times longer than they need to to be released--on this point, at least, we can definitely agree.
 
He's not honoring Odin's wishes. I was explaining why Loki was allowed back into Asgard all those other times. Thor, as I said, let Loki back in because the slate is effectively wiped clean and this is a fresh start for all of Asgard. Thor's a legislator as well as a warrior now, and he's made it law that there's a de facto amnesty for the past. In order to honor that, all he can judge Loki on is what he knows Loki's done now, which is nothing.

Then, quite frankly, absolving Asgard's #1 threat and criminal on nothing more than a verbal promise, which Loki has broken virtually every time he has ever made one, shows a lot of inexperience and naivety at the least. It's the Blind Hope Theory; oh, sure, every single time they've given their word, they betray it, but THIS time will be different. Oh, yes, it will be.

Or not. And then the cycle continues, and they wonder why they wasted their time.

Would Thor be so quick to embrace the Wrecker as an ally and key advisor if he promised to never commit crimes with his enchantments again?

No, but then, they've never been Asgardian citizens. Loki is a member of the Asgardian community and falls under that general amnesty I spoke of.

So if you're a beastie, you get no second, third, or 100th chance. I mean, hey, maybe some orcs decide not to be evil anymore, or something.

Not such overt hypocrisy, especially in a culture like Asgard's, which values honor and nobility.

But Loki has never shown such honor. He has used such culture aspects to his advantage every single time. At the very least, Thor should be aware of that and not simply allow Loki free reign over everything. Lord knows if some former enemy of mine promised to reform, I would at LEAST keep an eye on him or her, and tell all my key allies, "remember, this fellow DID try to kill us all a dozen times by now."

Because again, as far as Thor knows, Loki's being honest this time and he's honor-bound to keep his word that the Asgardians are getting a fresh start. I'm sure he suspects Loki will betray him again, but he can't prove it, and that sort of burden is on his shoulders as the king of his people. If he casts Loki out just 'cause after he's already declared an amnesty on his past crimes, he's essentially inviting others to follow his example, which would be detrimental to his society. That's the nature of leadership: Thor's actions set the tone for all of Asgard now. If he reveals himself to be dishonest by casting Loki out for past sins when the past is supposed to be dead and buried, he's essentially a liar and no better than Loki himself.

But when...not IF, not WHEN, Loki betrays them all, and does some horrible scheme, the other Asgardians might be a little miffed at Thor for putting so much trust in his old enemy, and even Thor himself will probably go, "Twas foolish to see a sparkle of honor and hope in such a trickster" or something similar, and everyone in the audience will roll their eyes because Thor asked for it. That's the elephant in the room for me.

Yeah, and that's where the drama comes from. We all know Loki's already working against Thor, but Thor can't prove it so he's honor-bound to respect the laws he's put out there and leave Loki alone. You're effectively asking the characters to overcome dramatic irony here.

No. I am asking the writer to come up with a story where we can have drama without the characters seeming like naive, overtrusting toddlers. When your main characters make a decision that every single member of your audience knows is the wrong one and will lead to suffering, you need a very, very good reason to not make it seem like utter stupidity or gullibility. JMS hasn't done that for me. Believing so much in honor rules that you allow yourself to be perennially set up by scoundrels IS gullibility.

But Thor doesn't know that.

But Thor can't tie that to Loki in any meaningful way.

Thor doesn't know that, either.

It is inevitable that he will, and then there will be a "oh, why did I/we trust Loki again after everything!?" and I'll roll my eyes.

They should and probably are, but Loki's covered his tracks well enough that nobody can prove anything. That's why criminals are so dangerous: the burden of proof is on the law. Punishing people for crimes you can't prove is a clear sign of an unjust, corrupt society, which isn't what Thor is after here.

I disagree with the notion that Thor should have offered a complete, unconditional amnesty to Asgard's #1 enemy with no restrictions or even a probationary exercise. Now if we eventually find out that one was in place, perhaps it will be how Thor figures some of this out, then that could work.

And Thor would be the equivalent of an Asgardian Vic Mackey if he just tossed Loki out on his ass on mere suspicion.

Thor at the very least should have been more cautious and not just allow Loki free reign, especially since he is away from Asgard a lot of the time to "do his works" on Earth (which is usually talking to locals or healing people as Donald Blake). He's literally having the fox watch the hen-house. And then we are all supposed to take it seriously when Thor can't see this stuff coming?

The X-Men did accept that Magneto had reformed and even allowed him to teach children, and that was just a bunch of normal people with a personal feud. They don't have the burden of being the example for an entire society of people on their shoulders like Thor does.

I know the X-Men did; I should note that Xavier partly lied to the New Mutants about this by claiming Magneto was "Michael Xavier" when he was teaching them. I used that X-Men example precisely because I always thought it was a bit ludicrous. Like, gee, you fellas REALLY were surprised when he tried to teach the New Mutants to be more militant against humanity? SERIOUSLY!?

Balder did hesitate. He denied and denied and denied Loki at first. Then Loki suggested that Balder was Odin's illegitimate son and Thor confirmed it. That's the key to the current predicament Balder finds himself in. He loves Thor and wants to believe in him, but he sees truth in what Loki's saying because he's too intelligent and noble not to, and he already knows Thor lied to him about one majorly important matter. That's bound to rock his faith in Thor a bit, and that tiny bit of doubt is all that Loki needs to plant more seeds. So, in reality, it's like if a dark secret about the US president were revealed by the Red Skull and Captain America shrugged it off until the president himself admitted it. The situation's not so clear-cut in that case, is it?

But would Cap then immediately make the Red Skull his key and only confidant and adviser? Would he then believe every next word Red Skull said? If one cover-up makes Thor the equal to the ex-fiend Loki in Balder's eyes, then I guess breasts really are distracting. ;)

I don't see Balder as conflicted. I seem him as agreeing with everything Loki has said to him after that exchange. He's no better than when Emma Frost used to lead Cyclops around like a dog on a leash for years, no matter how rough she was being with the Academy X kids or whatever. If anything, I see Balder as gullible, and Thor as being naive and reckless for allowing his #1 enemy so much room and influence, as well as opportunity.

I mean, c'mon man, we know where all this is going. Loki becomes Balder's key adviser and manipulates him, and through him, Asgard, into some sort of trouble or other. It's Saturday Morning TV logic, and while that's fine for X-MEN: FIRST CLASS, I expect a bit more from JMS.

I suppose the case could've been strengthened with body swaps or other contrivances, but Heimdall would probably be able to see through that. Sif's his sister, so if Loki f***ed with her, he'd probably kill him himself.

Yeah, I was only rattling off alternatives.

Regardless, I'm sure it could've been handled differently, but what we got, if you really examine it logically from the gods' perspective without the constant "Loki is evil and everything he says is a lie, period" bias, there's a pretty strong story being presented here. A very deep, subtle layer of intrigue and doubt has been laid over Asgard's seemingly utopian veneer, and I think you're dismissing it too quickly in black-and-white terms that the characters simply can't use. Loki, as far as Thor or Balder or anyone else in Asgard knows right now, is clean. His past sins are meant to be forgotten, although we've seen that that doesn't mean much to some people, and he's not "violating his parole," essentially, in any way that any of the other Asgardians can see.

But it isn't a bias; Loki is evil and everything he/she does say is a lie, a half truth, or merely serves his own agenda. It's like when Reed trusts something Dr. Doom says for some reason or another and the rest of the Four just shake their heads and make some snide comment, and wait for Doom to show his treachery, and he always does. After a while on the merry-go-round, I want something different.

Loki has no parole to violate. Thor in no way has restricted Loki's access or affairs in Asgard. Thor's allowed him to do whatever he wants.

Now, of course, if the climax of this story turns out to be Thor saying something like, "I knew you couldn't change, Loki, so I left you enough rope to hang thyself, and it is a shame on yourself that you are so predictable and wasted this opportunity" or something, that would be fine. Although, again, it is potentially reckless for setting up Asgard for such danger in the first place, especially with the gods being more "mortal" on Earth. If Thor truly believes Loki can change, then he's just stupidly naive. Even Superman has learned to stop trusting Lex Luthor, and it only took about 75 years.

It sort of reminds me of Checkmate, in fact. Amanda Waller was appointed as the White Queen but turned out to be the villain--which we all knew she would based on her past misdeeds--but none of the other Checkmate royals could prove anything about her actions at the time, so they were powerless to move against her. That same sort of political intrigue is playing out amongst the gods, which brings a really interesting dimension to them that they lacked before.

I like political intrigue to a degree, but I just figured a story where the key players didn't look like they were naively trusting Loki to change was at the root of it. Thor accepted Loki back on nothing more than a promise, with no probation, no "test of honor " or something to fulfill, zippo. Balder has so much "love" for Thor, but dismisses him after one exposed secret and turns to his deadliest enemy of the past. Don't confuse JMS taking 4 issues to get to every predictable plot point to mean it is more complex than it is. It isn't.

I find it hard to suspend disbelief when characters who should know better don't. CHECKMATE is based in real rules and laws; Thor's Asgard basically has whatever rules he wants (Thor of course wants to run a good Asgard and all that). Had Thor put Loki on some sort of leash, some sort of probation or a simple test of honor or something before all this, maybe during a lot of those wasted, meandering issues, I might be able to swallow this better. But right now the execution is spotty. I get where JMS wants to go, but he hasn't convinced me that Thor & Balder aren't being gullible.

And the issues are taking 2 to 3 times longer than they need to to be released--on this point, at least, we can definitely agree.
Indeed.

Although it is curious that when Thor does come out, Marvel likes to be sure we get 3 comics within a month of him. Overcompensate, much?
 
Maybe, but I'm certainly not complaining. More Thor = better. :up:

Man, I swore I'd never get into another one of these ridiculously long point-by-point arguments. Suffice it to say that I see what you're saying and I even agree with much of it to an extent, but as ruler of his people, having laid down a law, Thor is required to follow that law himself or risk compromising his own honor and the order of Asgard. Politicians can see each others' schemes clear as day a lot of the time, but sometimes the circumstances simply force them to allow themselves to be maneuvered into an untenable spot by their opponents. That's just the nature of the job, and Thor's got that job right now, like it or not.

Also, regarding Balder, I don't see Loki becoming a key anything to him. Loki will be exposed, obviously, but Balder's doubts will probably remain and become their own plot thread. He's not just the unquestioning good soldier type and he never has been. He's too much the intellectual, which forces him to see truths he might otherwise find convenient to ignore. It's as much a part of his nature as Thor having to abide by his own laws is part of his job's nature. Neither of them want to do what they're doing, but they find themselves unable to escape their current courses of action because of some ineffable quality of their character.
 
Maybe, but I'm certainly not complaining. More Thor = better. :up:

I wasn't complaining, either. Just thought it was an odd scheduling quirk. You'd think they would have saved some of the random one-shots for a THOR skip month.

Man, I swore I'd never get into another one of these ridiculously long point-by-point arguments. Suffice it to say that I see what you're saying and I even agree with much of it to an extent, but as ruler of his people, having laid down a law, Thor is required to follow that law himself or risk compromising his own honor and the order of Asgard. Politicians can see each others' schemes clear as day a lot of the time, but sometimes the circumstances simply force them to allow themselves to be maneuvered into an untenable spot by their opponents. That's just the nature of the job, and Thor's got that job right now, like it or not.

Then maybe that's why I am having a hard time swallowing that. Because I see that as a flaw. That is why nothing on Earth ever changes. Ever. The same things have gone on and on and on in circles in America because politicians play their little toddler power chess-games and never do anything for the people. It's a perverse board game only the prizes and penalties effect real lives.

For me, waiting for something bad to play out simply because you have written yourself into a box is reckless at the least. To me, Thor had written himself into a box and endangered the very thing he wants to create. Now, that may be dramatic and all, but it becomes a distraction when the plot is handled in a way that makes the lead seem naive.

And when said plot takes about twice as long to reach natural conclusions. Even a pleasure cruise can become irritating with enough delays or detours.

Also, regarding Balder, I don't see Loki becoming a key anything to him. Loki will be exposed, obviously, but Balder's doubts will probably remain and become their own plot thread. He's not just the unquestioning good soldier type and he never has been. He's too much the intellectual, which forces him to see truths he might otherwise find convenient to ignore. It's as much a part of his nature as Thor having to abide by his own laws is part of his job's nature. Neither of them want to do what they're doing, but they find themselves unable to escape their current courses of action because of some ineffable quality of their character.

Yeah, the stuff with Balder can be played up for a while. Characters acting as they usually do is fine, but after a while it defies belief when they don't wise up and see the obvious, and that is that Loki will always play their strengths against them. Always.

Maybe that's why people have appeal with Hercules. None of this complicated moral crap that lets you walk into danger with a blindfold on. In the end he just wants to drink stuff, beat up stuff, and sleep with stuff. God, mortal, whatever. :p
 
I just got around to reading a few this morning. I had sort of set them aside because I wasn't expecting much out of them. But both were surprisingly good.

Thor:SI #3 (?) I really didn't care for this series as a whole, even though I like Beta Ray Bill. The last issue, with them fighting together, was pretty satisfying.

Captain America One-shot - I forget the name of it, but I liked it. Good old-timey Cap.
 
To state it again, because it may have been lost in the debate, is that I don't hate THOR. I don't think it is a bad book or a bad relaunch. But sometimes when something is good, and shows itself capable of greatness, the flaws, at least what one sees as flaws, appear more grating. Or at least more nit-picky.

If a story is mediocre, there is less point to pick it to death; it can't be more than it is. But when something does reach that area, then the nit-picks seem more pronounced and annoying to me sometimes.
 
Man, I thought I was gonna be the odd man out for not liking the SI: Thor mini. Seems it wasn't a big hit with anyone.
 
Thank god I skipped it entirely.
 
It wasn't bad, but it could have been handled better.
 
I'm skipping all of Secret Invasion, though. I've only read a few tie-ins because those books happened to be on my pull lists: She-Hulk, X-Factor, and Incredible Herc. Frankly, I thought the Incredible Herc tie-in was pretty good, and would've made for an enjoyable storyline even without the Secret Invasion. I was wondering if any of the other tie-ins were any good without having to read the main miniseries.
 
Yeah, when I saw Bill, I really thought it would be cool. But it wasn't. I did like the last iss, though. I think Dropping Asgard on him was a bit extreme, but otherwise I liked it.
 
The Spider-Man one was decent, if not completely irrelevent now. The x-men one is kind of meh. The Inhumans one was decent, but I think I'm behind on it. I've been liking most of the tie-ins.
 
I'm skipping all of Secret Invasion, though. I've only read a few tie-ins because those books happened to be on my pull lists: She-Hulk, X-Factor, and Incredible Herc. Frankly, I thought the Incredible Herc tie-in was pretty good, and would've made for an enjoyable storyline even without the Secret Invasion. I was wondering if any of the other tie-ins were any good without having to read the main miniseries.

NOVA's tie in has been GREAT. The GOTG one also was pretty good, despite some misgivings about it at the start.
 
I'm skipping all of Secret Invasion, though. I've only read a few tie-ins because those books happened to be on my pull lists: She-Hulk, X-Factor, and Incredible Herc. Frankly, I thought the Incredible Herc tie-in was pretty good, and would've made for an enjoyable storyline even without the Secret Invasion. I was wondering if any of the other tie-ins were any good without having to read the main miniseries.

The Initiative is a really good tie-in.
 
I'm still of the opinion that Captain Britain & MI-13 has been the best SI tie-in.
 
Yeah, I was doing some research on Amazon and via trades & HC I can get through IH #106-120, which is most of the block. So, it shouldn't be so hard. I may try my local shops before going with Amazon, though; the price is a bit higher, but there is no wait time or having to possibly miss delivery and then head to the post office.

So, yeah, I am strongly considering it. I wouldn't mind some faster pace god action.
Do it. You'll be glad you did.
 
Nope. Incredible Herc was good but it made the Demagorge look like a total *****.
 
Oh **** I missed a tussle.

I have to agree with Dread a little, I really can't stand genre blindness in the medium, much less on this level. At best you can try to make it character-consistent ("Thor is often too trusting"), at worst you have to loophole it with some arbitrary plot justification ("It's a new life for the Asgardians! Second chances for everyone! Nothing that happened before counts...well, nothing bad anyway."), and either way it takes me right out of the story.

That being said, I'm probably the only person in the world who doesn't have a problem with the pacing of this book. It's late and not a lot happens per issue...but that doesn't really affect my enjoyment when I am reading the story, which altogether hangs together very well.
 
Regardless of justification it's still like hey look it's a shiney new era Asgard wherein things can be new and exciting and everthing is different - now let's go immediately back to the same tired ******** where Loki's running around being a scheming dickbag and everyone else just decides to be too ****ing stupid to see it.

But our neighbors are HILLBILLIES now! Woo!
 
The Spider-Man one was decent, if not completely irrelevent now. The x-men one is kind of meh. The Inhumans one was decent, but I think I'm behind on it. I've been liking most of the tie-ins.

I enjoyed Fantastic Four too. :ff:
 
Regardless of justification it's still like hey look it's a shiney new era Asgard wherein things can be new and exciting and everthing is different - now let's go immediately back to the same tired ******** where Loki's running around being a scheming dickbag and everyone else just decides to be too ****ing stupid to see it.

But our neighbors are HILLBILLIES now! Woo!

Come on, man; Is that really anymore tired than the dynamic between, say, Batman/Joker, or Spider-Man/Green Goblin, or Reed Richards/Von Doom?

If you think so, then maybe you've been reading comics too long.

The Hero vs Arch-Enemy is pretty much etched in stone at this point.
 
Last edited:
I'm still of the opinion that Captain Britain & MI-13 has been the best SI tie-in.

That would be a second best for me. I just preferred NOVA a bit more.

Do it. You'll be glad you did.

I'll post some long review when I do. ;)

Oh **** I missed a tussle.

I have to agree with Dread a little, I really can't stand genre blindness in the medium, much less on this level. At best you can try to make it character-consistent ("Thor is often too trusting"), at worst you have to loophole it with some arbitrary plot justification ("It's a new life for the Asgardians! Second chances for everyone! Nothing that happened before counts...well, nothing bad anyway."), and either way it takes me right out of the story.

That being said, I'm probably the only person in the world who doesn't have a problem with the pacing of this book. It's late and not a lot happens per issue...but that doesn't really affect my enjoyment when I am reading the story, which altogether hangs together very well.

Exactly.

As for the pace, when the issue is good, it can be overlooked, but I do feel JMS has taken a few issues longer than he had to with this.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,262
Messages
22,074,506
Members
45,876
Latest member
kedenlewis
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"