Thunderstrike,
Avengers Academy,
Astonishing Thor, and
Heroes for Hire are the comics I'm enjoying most from Marvel right now. Which is probably more of a commentary on the state of Marvel's comics in general of late than anything else. I got spoiled from having the cosmic line and
Incredible Herc and
Thor actually being
good for the past few years.
I omitted THUNDERSTRIKE because it was a mini series, but it deserves as much mention as POWER MAN & IRON FIST. It has also been very good.
Honestly, I forgot all about Young Allies while writing that. But also keep in mind that it was late and I wasn't firing on all cylinders. Firestar was the best example I could think off who would fit in well with the established staff. She would at least fit in better in my idea than in a new teen group like Young Allies. But I'm open to replacing her with another female who would catch more readers' attention and money.
And while I think Gage has handled Tigra fine, I'm thinking in the short term, as I feel writers of brand new series' should think because the chance of it lasting beyond a year is slim. This is why I planned my version of the series to one year, 12 issues. Tigra's an okay character but she doesn't bring anything, so replace her with someone else who does (if not readers then relatable plot with other cast members).
Don't get me wrong; I do understand wanting to have Firestar as part of the AVENGERS ACADEMY staff. In addition to her relationship with Justice, she also fits the mold to a degree. She was initially part of the Hellions, back before Emma Frost was a heroine. She founded the New Warriors, which had their share of bumps in the road (which included gang members striking at their families). She also had a mutation in which her own powers were giving her cancer, which Pym at least stopped in the short term (which Justice mentioned to Veil). The reality of the situation, though, was that Firestar had been set up over the course of months and/or years of material as a part time heroine as well as a college student and cancer survivor, and that Sean McKeever and his editor had wanted her in their YOUNG ALLIES launch. Now, whether AVENGERS ACADEMY and YOUNG ALLIES should have launched not only in the same month, but THE SAME WEEK as each other is up for debate. They're both "young hero" teams that offer something the other book doesn't, but they also compete with each other in a way. If AVENGERS ACADEMY struggles as a spin-off to AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE and with a mostly B, C, and new list cast, then YOUNG ALLIES struggled with coming off a poor selling NOMAD mini series as well as featuring a slew of characters mostly under a decade old, and Firestar.
I do like Tigra and feel Gage has gotten strong material out of her over the years, including these last two issues. He isn't above writing her as being wrong in a particular situation as well as imperfect without having her come off as completely unsympathetic - a delicate balance.
But, a female Avenger off the top of my head to either replace or "make up" for Tigra's lack of "drawing power"? The best answer I would have had is She-Hulk. While not a huge draw, I could argue very few heroines who aren't written by Bendis are these days at Marvel. She at least has had her own ongoing series and/or mini series for many years of time at Marvel. While a lawyer and a mostly stable heroine, she does have the bad rep of being the Hulk's cousin or having bouts of losing control herself (or being "controlled" by Scarlet Witch). She-Hulk is the character who tore Vision in half and actively worked against Tony Stark when he ran the Initiative. At times her temperament isn't far removed from Tigra. She's truly been at various ends of the spectrum (from being a beloved Fantastic Four member to a wanted fugitive) and it is possible her inclusion in the regular cast might have gotten some of her loyal fans aboard. Her knowledge of the legal system might have also come in handy. That is all conjecture and moot, of course. She's at least big enough to have made the latest roster of MARVEL VS. CAPCOM 3 - along with MODOK and Dormammu.
JewishHobbit said:
I actually agree with you here. I wasn't planning on turning him into the steriotype as much as it just progress naturally in the story. I could easily have replaced him with Hazmat and have the jealousy be over Reptil and have HER the main turncoat. Maybe then she'd talk Mettle into joining her instead but he'll come to his senses before the end but still do enough damage to need some mental help. That way he's not "evil" and is prime pickings for Speedball to do a little heart to heart with him and rehabilitate him after issue 12 if the series got that far.
But is Hazmat really evil? I'm not sure, and I like that about this series. It can get too easy to simply want to "get to the point" and have the kids fall between black or white within a year, but I don't mind things being a little up in the air. Teenagers are all about potential, right? To be fair, while it is clear that Hazmat is often venting the frustration of her situation, she does have obvious mean streaks. Given her situation, however, her origin is more tragic than the tales of other "seemingly bad" members like Finesse or Striker, who were basically products of their upbringing. She wants revenge on Osborn, but is she "evil" beyond that?
Ironically, Veil was the POV character of the debut issue, yet it seems she starts to shift further into gray territory. She agreed to go along with not one but two "side quests" alongside Hazmat that involved vengeance. She was secretly watching Pym's lab with Wasp. Her crush on Justice could end up being the final straw if that ends poorly. If the devil is always the one you least suspect, it could end up being her. She is, after all, a girl who decided to wear an all black costume with less white to it than even Striker's. Now, I like Veil too, but I wanted to make a point that at least IMO, what Gage may lack in a "faster paced story" is some thoughtful ambiguity with his characters.
Is this enough to sell in an age when not even Bendis Avengers stories can sell over 70k last month? Probably not, at least not for the long term. But I am not sure how things would have been helped by more "obvious" things. I recall with GENERATION HOPE, people complained about the characters being ciphers after 5 issues.
JewishHobbit said:
Oh I agree, but I removed it for the sake of space and limiting the story to 12 issues. Remove was isn't necessary to the immediate plot.
I don't mind some things happening that relate to character growth or just a moment that doesn't have to be chugging at that immediate plot. Interludes can work for me, but of course it is subjective.
JewishHobbit said:
I don't read letter pages (I read enough opinions on the hype
) so I didn't know this. That's actually pretty awesome of Gage
Yeah, Gage is cool. I met him briefly at Wizard's Big Apple Con in 2009 - he signed some AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE comics for me.
JewishHobbit said:
My thinking with Mysterio isn't so much as gaining sales as keeping them. It seems that the norm is that sales for a new title slowly drop over time. Start big and bring in things to improve sales, but do what you can to also keep the sales you got as to at least keep steady sales, rather than declining.
In this regard I feel a recognizable character helps more than a barely D-list character. I don't feel that Mysterio is above being beaten by students as long as he puts up a good showing (and holding his own against the students AND some of the staff is pretty good). His being taken down by an animalistic Reptil that he wasn't expecting and has no experience with would be acceptable for me.
He's a more viable threat that people would care about, and thus make the issue just a little more enjoyable.
You have a point about sales of most ongoing series; even big A-List sellers rarely gain readers beyond short term spurts for relaunches or crossovers or heavily promoted stories (hence why many comics do all three). This is called "diminishing returns", that most books usually lose readers every month, but the most solid ones have it be a relatively small amount - 1-3% is about the average (although a book that was dripping 3% of its audience a month would be in trouble long term if the debut sales were not high). Second issues often see a drop of at least 20% from the #1 issue.
AVENGERS ACADEMY is a great book in terms of quality, IMO. In terms of sales, while it has fared better than some launches of June 2010, such as YOUNG ALLIES, its sales status in Jan. 2011 is fearful. It debuted at over 48,800 copies - far above where AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE ended even WITH its boost from SIEGE. The second issue drop was 17%, to just over 38k; hardly the worst second issue drop. The drops for later issues would lesson, but would remain worryingly high for an ongoing series. Sales dropped over 6% for issue 3 and a whopping 12% for issue four. Issue five saw a marginal 0.2% gain, which literally meant 60 more copies were ordered than for issue four - I forget why, but either a variant cover or that THUNDERBOLTS crossover was the cause. Issue six's drop was nearly 17%, or statistically almost as high as that second issue drop was, and it was selling under 26k. AA ended 2010 with a rebound to over 27.5k, or a gain of over 6%. Some speculated this was due to the trade, although the first needlessly expensive hardcover didn't ship until January. Issue 7 had 3 variant covers, including a TRON one of Quicksilver; it was also the issue where Pym returned to being Giant-Man and was the ONLY issue since the launch that Marvel in any way tried to promote with effort. Still, in six months the book had lost 39.5% of its sales from the debut. For the record, the lowest sales that AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE ever hit was 26-27k, right before the SIEGE crossover (and after over 2 years in print). For 2010, AA remained above that. January's sales are another drop to just over 24k. Now, for perspective, 24k for issue #8 is better than SPIDER-GIRL sold for its #1 issue. But it is still a drop of well over 10%, which isn't healthy for a title 8 issues in. Now, even NEW AVENGERS and AVENGERS have seen monthly drops of some 9-11% an issue for a while now, but they sell much better to begin with.
Now, Gage has personally stated that issue 12 is coming out, as he's written it and it is being drawn. Issues #13 and #14 have been solicited with cover art by Billy Tan. But with sales drops above 10% an issue, it will be difficult to imagine the series outlasting CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MI-13, which called it a run after 15 issues and an annual. AVENGERS ACADEMY GIANT SIZE #1 will ship in April or May, fulfilling the annual part of the bargain. That is about when the kids will get some recognition appearing in an arc of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, which averages 52-57k an issue (and sporadically higher). Of course, that NOMAD back up strip in CAPTAIN AMERICA, that sells about 42k or more an issue, didn't do a thing to help YOUNG ALLIES.
Now, I didn't mind Mentallo, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to more recognizable villains at this point. Absorbing Man was good, even if he is often a jobber - to be fair, he was taken down by Pym, NOT any of the kids (or even Justice). To be honest I may have chosen someone like Purple Man if the idea was to jazz up the villain's rep. He's a villain that Bendis has turned into a threat, yet he is also capable of being defeated in one blow if applicable. It also may have tied into that Reptil/Jones scene a tad better, to play Devil's Advocate. The only hiccup is Killgrave was distinctly shown as a prisoner of the Raft in THUNDERBOLTS and Cage soundly defeated him. On the other hand, if Killgrave had escaped and the Academy recaptured him, that crossover might have had more weight to it. But, I digress.
Come to think of it, Killgrave used to have a purple skinned mutant daughter, called Persuasion and who used to hang around ALPHA FLIGHT. You'd think she'd have shown up since her dad got upgraded.
When THUNDERBOLTS crossed over with Academy, it was at a time when it and not ACADEMY needed a boost. Yet THUNDERBOLTS remains more stable over the long term; in hindsight, perhaps a crossover with a better selling title may have been key, such as SECRET AVENGERS.
JewishHobbit said:
I would imagine that in the earlier appearance they'd be able to take him out before he can reach a very powerful state. His being drugged or something would keep him from accessing much power but he'd still be a threat to an extent. He'd vow "revenge" or something to be seen a few issues later when he's up to full power and showing these brats how a real beating is.
This would again, keep readers as the players are bigger, there's intrigue to when Absorbing Man would be back, and I feel the battle with Pym would be a fantastic payoff for that preview in the earlier issue... thus, making it a better plot.
Fair enough. It actually has been a while since Creel was used in any sort of build-up plot as opposed to just being an obligatory menace to pummel. I did think Gage wrote him well. It was one of the best Absorbing Man scenes I have seen in ages, and it was made relevant to Pym's dilemma with Jan.
JewishHobbit said:
I didn't know that actually. Then I'm glad I didn't go with the Electro being his father idea I was debating. I felt it was too obvious to be honest. I do like the idea of bringing Stryker's father into it, whoever it ends up being, but putting off subtle plots like that never hurts. If sales are decent enough to go beyond issue 12 that'd be one that'd likely come up I'd think.
I also like the idea of The Dark Reign's Young Avengers showing up and causing some strife!
They're called the Young Masters, at least in theory. Executioner does proclaim them as "your Masters" to the Young Avengers in their climatic fight - which ended in an anti-climax. Y'know, if we are arguing about underwhelming young character comics, I thought that mini was a misfire at best. An imaginative and well intentioned one, but still one.
But, yeah, Electro has been active under 14 or so years so there is really no way he could sire a kid as old as Striker or so on. The only one of the Bastards Of Evil who was a legitimate child of a villain was their Leader, who was the 9-10 year old son of the Leader (who inherited his super-intellect, among other powers).
JewishHobbit said:
This again falls back on the whole Mysterio thing. I'm sure Korvac is a powerful and cool villain, but he's not been a player in over a decade or more if I'm not mistaken. There's very little there to really entice young readers or readers who weren't reading Avengers or GotG back then... I certainly don't give a crap about him. Ultron does pull in more interest and would result in steadier sales and even potential upswings for people who read Slott's Mighty Avengers or Annihilation Conquest (maybe) but aren't reading Academy.
I do agree here. I'm sure Gage will write a rollicking tale, but I would be more psyched for Ultron than Korvac.
JewishHobbit said:
I was tired and just winged that. I'm not attached to it, though I do like the idea of his [Taskmaster] trying to become fatherly and secretly helping the team out to do that, maybe on the recommendation of Pym and Quicksilver. I didn't imagine it'd be immediate though, maybe moreso after 3 or 4 issues of debate and Finesse tracking him down again. Maybe even an interesting heart to heart with his pal Deadpool
While Pym does believe in second chances, it would be a bit out of character for him to let Taskmaster in willingly. Even Pietro didn't underestimate his threat level. While the Secret Avengers may know the truth about Taskmaster, part of his condition is he still will act like a villain and assume he is one due to his own inner guilt. He isn't seeking redemption and in the end is always out for number one. He back-stabbed and ditched even Norman Osborn in the end. Iron Man and Gyrich were willing to have him on staff with nanobots, but this is the HEROIC AGE and all against using villains as muscle with shock collars. It wouldn't work.
Now, if Taskmaster somehow remembered Finesse and seemed to keep an eye on her from the shadows now and again independent of the Academy staff...that could work.
JewishHobbit said:
I know this wasn't directed at me at all but just to clarify... I do LIKE the book, I just don't LOVE it... and when I have to drop stuff to keep from breaking the bank, just liking a book may not be enough.
Again, I've not officially dropped the book yet and may stick with it yet... it's just on the chopping block.
Right. Like I said, you clearly care enough about it to invest this much thought and effort into areas you feel it could have been better, while exhausted no less!
I'm leery of the Avengers hiring Taskmaster. It obviously could be done, but it'd be like how Spider-Man and Captain America are suddenly okay working day-in, day-out alongside Wolverine, whom they've both actively opposed due to his methods before. It just doesn't really fit.
Agreed. While Steve Rogers knows about Taskmaster's deal, the problem is that doesn't change the fact that he operates as a villain, or at best as a lone wolf who only looks out for his own self interest. While he has worked for the fed before, that has usually always been after he was captured and he often exploited such deals for data or an escape route. I suppose the only way that could change is if, say, Rogers asked Pym to see if he could "cure" Taskmaster of his condition and rehabilitate him. If written properly, it could be a sort of FLOWERS FOR TASKMASTER sort of story, even if it would have to runs its course to maintain what Van Lente created for him. But barring that, it would be out of character. Stark may have been morally gray enough to force villains into doing his bidding with shock collars - Rogers isn't.
