BOUGHT/THOUGHT Jan 31st

No but seriously, my reasoning is the same I use in all literature. I'd rather read about conflicted, gray-area people, just as we are in real life. The hard-etched concepts like Good vs. Evil tend to annoy me, simply due to their repetition since the beginning of TIME. I'll take Gambit over Cyclops, and Luke Cage over Captain America. Any day.


Agreed I like the Gray much more then the Black and White. Annihilation was still kinda gray in a way, it was still black and white cause there was an obvious good and an obvious evil, but the good was such a melting pot that they where more gray than white.
 
No but seriously, my reasoning is the same I use in all literature. I'd rather read about conflicted, gray-area people, just as we are in real life. The hard-etched concepts like Good vs. Evil tend to annoy me, simply due to their repetition since the beginning of TIME. I'll take Gambit over Cyclops, and Luke Cage over Captain America. Any day.

Yes, because the " conflicted gray area" situation hasn't been done to death right? Right?:whatever:
 
We've already established your horrible taste.

Great, thanks for the comment. I didn't know Annihilation and Planet Hulk meant I had bad taste. Civil War is damn good so I dont know what your smoking, Onslaught reborn is horrible, I just felt like throwing that in, thats why I put it way below the others, cause it sucks.
 
Don't read me wrong, Darth, as you're wont to do. :D

I'm not talking about the emo, guilt-ridden anti-hero here. I'm talking real people, with conflicting emotions and desires. There are little to no truly "badguys" or "goodguys" in real life.
 
Yea it is a metter of perseption. Example cops are "good guys", in my eyes they are not exactly bad guys but they're also not exactly good guys.
 
No, it's not really a matter of perception. There are no black and whites when it comes to these things in real life. Good people do bad things, and vice verca.
 
Since when did bought/threads get so dumb?
 
I honestly think this comic should be one of those comics people remember 20 years from now. I get excited when i read comics, but its mostly the "Ohwow, thats cool." variety. When I turned that page and saw that Nova/Annihilus splash page I literally said "Oh my god!" and my jaw dropped. I havent had that feeling reading a comic, from any company in a long time. It made me feel like I was 8 again.

Again, exactly. I wholeheartedly agree. I got that feeling from ANNIHILATION, much as I do for some other Marvel books like RUNAWAYS, YOUNG AVENGERS, DR. STRANGE: OATH, GLA, THE THING, and especially Image's INVINCIBLE.

To counter some of what I say about USM, comics like ANNIHILATION are WHY people read comics.

Unlike CIVIL WAR, where an equal amount of characters seem to be destroyed as are those who have become stronger, in ANNIHILATION, I could argue that almost every major character who didn't die became stronger in some way or another. Thanos got a redesign and finally "won" over Death. Nova went from "ex-sorta New Warrior" and occasional guest star to a bad-arse lone surviving Corpsman with mega power and more than enough cajones for not only a great showing here, but a shot an at ongoing (the last time he had an ongoing, it was the late 90's, it was done by Erik Larson, and it tanked in less than a year). True, Quasar died (and that irked some folks), but an even more obscure cosmic character, Phyla, at least got to inherit his legacy and mantle in dramatic fashion. Drax got a total revamp (and acted as a prelude with his own mini). Ronan & Super-Skrull, B-List FF enemies at times, become co-starring heroes and now have some new status quos to play with. Silver Surfer, although back heralding Galactus, at least looks due for more facetime (a regression, I suppose, but one character vs. the ENTIRE mutant race in Decimation is chump change). Peter Quill & Moondragon got used after years and years in the dumpster, and they're not alone. And even Annihilus got fleshed out, revamped, and evolved from B-List FF whipping boy to universal powerhouse. And I am sure someone could go on. Even Ravenous has gone from a "who dat?" to a decent level baddie.

Too many writers fear a "predictable" story, but what they fail to realize is that some stories fail by following a formula and some succeed by it, and it depends on the writing quality. You KNEW that the bad guys would go down here, that eventually Nova would have his showdown, and in no way did Giffen & Co. attempt to mislead you or deny it or feel ashamed of it. They just did it damn well. THAT is how it gets done. And it works every time.

Joe Q sometimes doesn't make good decisions, but publishing this "second string" even despite the fact that it's not his personal preference deserves a word of acknowledgement. Lord knows I rarely praise him. I mean, if we trash him for bad books & events, we have to give some credit for the good.

Hopefully, the next NOVA series will knock it out of the park. Who's writin' that one again?
 
No but seriously, my reasoning is the same I use in all literature. I'd rather read about conflicted, gray-area people, just as we are in real life. The hard-etched concepts like Good vs. Evil tend to annoy me, simply due to their repetition since the beginning of TIME. I'll take Gambit over Cyclops, and Luke Cage over Captain America. Any day.

Then I guess you're overlooking a lot, probably because the sci-fi genre is often looked upon as not as "gritty" as street level crap.

Look at the cast...Drax, who after his recent mini is NOT the hero he was in the Infinity Watch but an anti-hero AT BEST. Thanos, who had been kinda siding with the good guys, clearly threw in with Annihilus. Ronan, who before his mini EVERYONE looked upon as a villain. Super Skrull, who even in his mini showed that he's a villain; he might appear to have decent motivations but his actions forever mark him as a villain. Blastaar. GALACTUS.

I'm sorry, it might look like the good guys won the day but to me that's an illusion perpetrated by Nova being the leader. Most of the people in this had ulterior motives and quite a few of them had to do, not questionable things but, BAD things to get the "heroes" a fighting chance. Ronan had to kill a bunch of his own countrymen to get the Kree to aid the resistance. Drax almost fooked up freeing Galactus because he wanted to kill Thanos (I know, he was MADE for that task). Galactus killed billions, if I'm not mistaken, when he got free; people from both sides and entire planetary systems. Silver Surfer got an upgrade but at the cost of being a herald again.

I don't see the white and black in it. I don't see a pure white in a victory that didn't return Quasar. "Peace" was attained by giving Ravenous Kree territories in a "cold war" agreement. Larva Annihilus. A Universe without a police force anymore, and from blurbs I've read about the future plans for nova, there ISN'T going to be a Nova Corps again. The Skrulls were practically decimated. Again, I'm sorry, but if this event isn't all kinds of shades of gray then it must be because I look more into it than other people.
 
I like a good "shades of gray" story as much as anyone. I thought Sin City was a masterpiece of a film. Fallen Angel by Peter David probably features the most nihilistic, fallible, and antiheroic character I can stomach, and I love every page of it. Identity Crisis was bloody wonderful, and the majority of it was just heroes making stupid choices, failing, and getting raped or whatever. Hell, I thought Wonder Woman mercilessly snapping a man's neck was the single most significant comic book moment of 2005.

But Decimation, House of M, Civil War...I don't feel like any one of them had anything remotely thought-provoking or morally intelligent to say about the intricacies of "right" versus "wrong" or the conflicted, flawed people who live in the world. To call any one of them a "shades of gray" story is, in my opinion, an insult to the stories out there that actually manage to get it right. Oh sure, Civil War had pretentions of it, but at the end settled into just another "hay let's see who we can make into a bigger dick lol evil government clones" story. Comparing two sides to see who makes the worser decisions and who forces you to hate them more, and then everyone feels shtty because everyone is acting like prcks? That's not shades of gray, nor is it black and white; that's just black. Pure black.

Dread put it perfectly: "Spending 90 minutes of my life learning that if something bad happened to me, I'd be depressed is not a revelation, and too many writers treat it as one." When Mr. Fantastic puts people in jail for life and his wife calls him a Nazi, I don't think "Wow, this is so interesting because it shows how conflicted and humane he is," I think "This makes no sense and is annoying." When Iron Man hires Bullseye and Venom and Lady Deathstrike to hunt down his former friends like dogs, I don't think "WOW he's really being pushed to the brink and has to compromise his values for the greater good," I think "What the c*ck is this s**t?????"

And frankly, lest we forget, these are superhero comicbooks. And if the only superhero comics you can make are the ones where the superheroes are neither super nor heroic but instead fail and make horrible choices all the time...well, I dunno, but to me that sounds squarely like missing the damn point. Of course there is a market for that sort of thing. Of course there is a time and place. Maybe once in a while we not only want but need stories like that, just to remind us of what could happen. But at this point it's looking like the only damn thing that Marvel can churn out, and that's pretty pathetic. If your entire creative direction for your superhero universe is that your characters make horrible fcking superheroes, well, that's your right but I personally think that's bass-ackwards and inane.
 
Then I guess you're overlooking a lot, probably because the sci-fi genre is often looked upon as not as "gritty" as street level crap.

Look at the cast...Drax, who after his recent mini is NOT the hero he was in the Infinity Watch but an anti-hero AT BEST. Thanos, who had been kinda siding with the good guys, clearly threw in with Annihilus. Ronan, who before his mini EVERYONE looked upon as a villain. Super Skrull, who even in his mini showed that he's a villain; he might appear to have decent motivations but his actions forever mark him as a villain. Blastaar. GALACTUS.

I'm sorry, it might look like the good guys won the day but to me that's an illusion perpetrated by Nova being the leader. Most of the people in this had ulterior motives and quite a few of them had to do, not questionable things but, BAD things to get the "heroes" a fighting chance. Ronan had to kill a bunch of his own countrymen to get the Kree to aid the resistance. Drax almost fooked up freeing Galactus because he wanted to kill Thanos (I know, he was MADE for that task). Galactus killed billions, if I'm not mistaken, when he got free; people from both sides and entire planetary systems. Silver Surfer got an upgrade but at the cost of being a herald again.

I don't see the white and black in it. I don't see a pure white in a victory that didn't return Quasar. "Peace" was attained by giving Ravenous Kree territories in a "cold war" agreement. Larva Annihilus. A Universe without a police force anymore, and from blurbs I've read about the future plans for nova, there ISN'T going to be a Nova Corps again. The Skrulls were practically decimated. Again, I'm sorry, but if this event isn't all kinds of shades of gray then it must be because I look more into it than other people.

Agreed

Supermarvelman said:
Agreed I like the Gray much more then the Black and White. Annihilation was still kinda gray in a way, it was still black and white cause there was an obvious good and an obvious evil, but the good was such a melting pot that they where more gray than white.
 
Again, exactly. I wholeheartedly agree. I got that feeling from ANNIHILATION, much as I do for some other Marvel books like RUNAWAYS, YOUNG AVENGERS, DR. STRANGE: OATH, GLA, THE THING, and especially Image's INVINCIBLE.

To counter some of what I say about USM, comics like ANNIHILATION are WHY people read comics.

Unlike CIVIL WAR, where an equal amount of characters seem to be destroyed as are those who have become stronger, in ANNIHILATION, I could argue that almost every major character who didn't die became stronger in some way or another. Thanos got a redesign and finally "won" over Death. Nova went from "ex-sorta New Warrior" and occasional guest star to a bad-arse lone surviving Corpsman with mega power and more than enough cajones for not only a great showing here, but a shot an at ongoing (the last time he had an ongoing, it was the late 90's, it was done by Erik Larson, and it tanked in less than a year). True, Quasar died (and that irked some folks), but an even more obscure cosmic character, Phyla, at least got to inherit his legacy and mantle in dramatic fashion. Drax got a total revamp (and acted as a prelude with his own mini). Ronan & Super-Skrull, B-List FF enemies at times, become co-starring heroes and now have some new status quos to play with. Silver Surfer, although back heralding Galactus, at least looks due for more facetime (a regression, I suppose, but one character vs. the ENTIRE mutant race in Decimation is chump change). Peter Quill & Moondragon got used after years and years in the dumpster, and they're not alone. And even Annihilus got fleshed out, revamped, and evolved from B-List FF whipping boy to universal powerhouse. And I am sure someone could go on. Even Ravenous has gone from a "who dat?" to a decent level baddie.

Too many writers fear a "predictable" story, but what they fail to realize is that some stories fail by following a formula and some succeed by it, and it depends on the writing quality. You KNEW that the bad guys would go down here, that eventually Nova would have his showdown, and in no way did Giffen & Co. attempt to mislead you or deny it or feel ashamed of it. They just did it damn well. THAT is how it gets done. And it works every time.

Joe Q sometimes doesn't make good decisions, but publishing this "second string" even despite the fact that it's not his personal preference deserves a word of acknowledgement. Lord knows I rarely praise him. I mean, if we trash him for bad books & events, we have to give some credit for the good.

Hopefully, the next NOVA series will knock it out of the park. Who's writin' that one again?


Yup, agree wholeheartedly.
 
No but seriously, my reasoning is the same I use in all literature. I'd rather read about conflicted, gray-area people, just as we are in real life. The hard-etched concepts like Good vs. Evil tend to annoy me, simply due to their repetition since the beginning of TIME. I'll take Gambit over Cyclops, and Luke Cage over Captain America. Any day.

Wow,never knew there were still any Gambit fans around.
 
That says a lot. I mean, a lot. This coming from another Gambit "fan".
 

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