Bought/Thought for July 28, 2010 - SPOILERS

[Themanofbat]

Scott Pilgrim is a comic?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Graphic novel series, in fact.

You'd like it, it all takes place in Canada.

 

[Drz]

Scott Pilgrim is a comic?

If you wish to insult comics by defining Scott Pilgrim as one, yes!

 

[Dread]

Hmm, I don't remember Grayson ever becoming Nightwing just for the sake of saving the Teen Titans. He probably helped them out on occasions, but as far as I'm aware, Dick always became Nightwing on his own.

Hmm. Didn't he first become Nightwing in TEEN TITANS/TALES OF THE TEEN TITANS in the 1980's? I used to dig around research sites when the cartoon was on and the main Teen Titans one used to always claim that in the pages of TEEN TITANS, Grayson decided to stop being Robin, and first donned his Nightwing costume when he sought to rescue the Titans after they'd been handed over to HIVE by Deathstroke, alongside Jericho. I mean, TEEN TITANS was the book that Grayson was in at the time, but I was kind of stunned to watch a Grayson retrospective on a DVD and there was nary a mention of the Titans or the role they played in Grayson's life. I was unsure whether this was just out of fear of confusing Bat-buyers or official DC retcons.

I mean, there's been a few Crises since the 1980's.

Fantastic Four was good. Finally got around to reading it. It's got me a little worried, though. Hickman seems to be the kind of writer who simply can't let things lie and move forward. Between Secret Warriors, SHIELD, and now this series, he's proven that he loves absolutely nothing more than going back, retconning, and inserting all kinds of stuff into characters' (and the universe's) backstory. Sometimes they turn out okay, sometimes not, but I can never help feeling that they're always unnecessary.

So now, instead of Nathaniel Richards being simply a time traveler--that bit of sci fi insanity that was always a part of Reed, harkening to his future as leader of the FF and all-around super-scientist--Hickman's brought over the development from SHIELD that Nathaniel exploded with that "quantum engine" guy, which somehow shot all of the alternate versions of him throughout the omniverse into one reality--the 616 one, of course--600,000 years into the future. Nothing big on its own. But of course, then comes the idea that Immortus basically set the alternate Nathaniels against each other, promising to spare whichever one of them survives the deaths of all the others.

The idea isn't terrible right off the bat. In fact, the part of it that this issue covers is, as I said, fairly good. I even like the makeshift FF Nathaniel, Reed, Ben, and Doom comprise (even though Doom's design for an armored exoskeleton that leaves the wearer's entire midsection exposed is easily among the stupidest things I've ever seen in comics). But I still can't help feeling a bit worried about where this will lead, nor can I stop coming back to that question I have whenever Hickman goes retcon-happy across his numerous series: Why? What's gained by having Nathaniel be some kind of interdimensional Highlander? Hopefully, Hickman will provide a compelling answer to that question, but I remain wary.

Edwards' art is much better here than it has been in past issues, though, so that's a plus.

I didn't know that bit with Nathanial Richards was from SHIELD, since I don't read that. Hickman does have a fetish for retcons, doesn't he?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He really does. And it always troubles me when a writer's defining characteristic is looking back on stuff that came before and going, "That was all right, but I could do it better if I just change this... and this..."

 

[Dread]

He really does. And it always troubles me when a writer's defining characteristic is looking back on stuff that came before and going, "That was all right, but I could do it better if I just change this... and this..."

Many writers these days have a retcon or two in them, even ones we usually like. Dan Slott even had the retcon that Hank Pym learned Iron Man's secret identity years early. And Ed Brubaker's entire career defining run on CAPTAIN AMERICA, a franchise run, has centered around a retcon (or rather, a retcon of Stan Lee's retcon in the 60's). The caveat is that no one minds a retcon if it does no harm or if they happen to like the result. The idea of Thor being a god turned into a man, and not vice versa, was originally a retcon. Hardly anyone thinks it is a misstep.

On the other hand, read any X-MEN themed Handbook and you can see how many characters have been crippled into confusing ciphers over retcons.

A retcon is usually seen as a means to make a story "really" count, or make it harder for the next writer to undo. In theory, fans supposedly don't give anything new a chance, unless it is tied to the past or to something they do like. The sad fact is that writers who do "safe" runs, who don't muck with the past and instead concern themselves only with the present and future, tend to be overlooked and under appreciated. If Gail Simone had only blown up WW's world with abandon so DC could make hyperventilating solicitations, maybe sales would have spiked and she'd still be on it.

The writers we like who tend to write like that - Jeff Parker, Fred Van Lente, Christos Gage - are mid-card writers in terms of sales. Their big books never sell that well. They're not household names to comic buyers like the Brubakers or Bendis' or the JMS' of the world. One could argue that $3.99 pricing is killing any book, either quickly or slowly, that isn't a big seller to begin with, but Marvel's got about as much economic sense as Uncle Scrooge in his money-vat these days. But is also comes down to a chicken or egg debate.

If a writer hits a franchise title and goes, "Well, I see a lot of stuff that is already here for me to use, and I'll use that to tell stories about the future", the fans might cheer but the sales won't budge, or go down. If another writer hits another franchise and goes, "This is all crap. My **** is bigger than the last writer on this. I'm hitting the past with an atom bomb and you'll see epic changes and revelations! Nothing you knew is safe, BWAHAHAHAHAA!", sales would spike at least on the first issue. It's a sort of love/hate relationship between technique, retailers, and fans, I think. And like I said, it's all subjective as someone out there always likes whatever retcon is there, or supports the book regardless. Winter Soldier could have been a debacle if it wasn't told as well as it was; instead it'd led to the highest sales on CA in half a decade. On the other hand, Red Hood hasn't fared as well for DC. Even the BND experiment with ASM hasn't succeeded as well as supporters claim, nor crashed as much as haters insist.

Personally, I try to support writers who deal with the future or utilize the past to tell great stories. But unfortunately, we don't number 100k strong, at least consistently.

 

[Tron Bonne]

If you wish to insult comics by defining Scott Pilgrim as one, yes!

You fail at trolling :/

Hmm. Didn't he first become Nightwing in TEEN TITANS/TALES OF THE TEEN TITANS in the 1980's? I used to dig around research sites when the cartoon was on and the main Teen Titans one used to always claim that in the pages of TEEN TITANS, Grayson decided to stop being Robin, and first donned his Nightwing costume when he sought to rescue the Titans after they'd been handed over to HIVE by Deathstroke, alongside Jericho. I mean, TEEN TITANS was the book that Grayson was in at the time, but I was kind of stunned to watch a Grayson retrospective on a DVD and there was nary a mention of the Titans or the role they played in Grayson's life. I was unsure whether this was just out of fear of confusing Bat-buyers or official DC retcons.

I mean, there's been a few Crises since the 1980's.

Yeah, it was that time period when he first became Nightwing, but it wasn't a decision based on the Teen Titans, it was always something he did on his own accord as far as I'm aware

 

[Drz]

You fail at trolling :/

I'm just teasing you and Corp.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, it was that time period when he first became Nightwing, but it wasn't a decision based on the Teen Titans, it was always something he did on his own accord as far as I'm aware

Alright.

I was still put off by a retrospective of him that didn't even mention the Teen Titans. It felt like if some Marvel DTV had a retrospective of Hank Pym without mentioning the Avengers. But, oh well. I was just curious.

Sometimes I see a lot of wasted potential with Nightwing, besides just being Batman's stand in for occasional deaths or cripple-ments. The fact that, in the real world, Batman always has to be around also limits how far Nightwing can go, which is a shame. But that's a rant for another time.

 

[Themanofbat]

Dick became Nightwing to "grow up" and be away from Batman's shadow, but him becoming Nightwing happened in the Teen Titans (circa issue #44 around 1984 methinks), so maybe that's where you're confusion lies...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Speaking of Bat-family stuff, I'm reading Young Justice right now. Just got through the Sins of Youth event. Man, it's really depressing to go back to this period and read about Tim when he was just coming into the realization that he had a need to fight crime but he didn't necessarily want to do it as Batman. The very idea of striking such fear into people simply by looking at them and being totally alienated from everyone he cared about was too much for him. In effect, he couldn't imagine actually falling into the same obsessive, borderline crazy behavior that Bruce often falls victim to as Batman unless Nightwing or Robin or someone can pull him back out of it.

Cut to ten years later and he's grimdark enough to give Frank Miller pause. Such a horrible series of missteps with the character. I'm really glad that Fabian Niceiza is getting the chance to pull him back out of that darkness in Red Robin. It's a testament to his ability that he's striking a balance, keeping some of the cold detachment and melding it with Tim's long-standing intellect and strategic mind but also allowing him to open up, crack a smile now and then, and just be friends with Superboy and Bart and them.

Now, if only someone could fully de-b****ify Wonder Girl...

 

[Tron Bonne]

Sometimes I see a lot of wasted potential with Nightwing, besides just being Batman's stand in for occasional deaths or cripple-ments. The fact that, in the real world, Batman always has to be around also limits how far Nightwing can go, which is a shame. But that's a rant for another time.

Yeah, there is, and it seems pretty clear to me due to recent events, and reception of said events, that Dick will probably never be looked at as more than just a grown up Robin by writers and readers.

 

[Dread]

Dick became Nightwing to "grow up" and be away from Batman's shadow, but him becoming Nightwing happened in the Teen Titans (circa issue #44 around 1984 methinks), so maybe that's where you're confusion lies...

Maybe. In fact, probably.

Speaking of Bat-family stuff, I'm reading Young Justice right now. Just got through the Sins of Youth event. Man, it's really depressing to go back to this period and read about Tim when he was just coming into the realization that he had a need to fight crime but he didn't necessarily want to do it as Batman. The very idea of striking such fear into people simply by looking at them and being totally alienated from everyone he cared about was too much for him. In effect, he couldn't imagine actually falling into the same obsessive, borderline crazy behavior that Bruce often falls victim to as Batman unless Nightwing or Robin or someone can pull him back out of it.

Cut to ten years later and he's grimdark enough to give Frank Miller pause. Such a horrible series of missteps with the character. I'm really glad that Fabian Niceiza is getting the chance to pull him back out of that darkness in Red Robin. It's a testament to his ability that he's striking a balance, keeping some of the cold detachment and melding it with Tim's long-standing intellect and strategic mind but also allowing him to open up, crack a smile now and then, and just be friends with Superboy and Bart and them.

Now, if only someone could fully de-b****ify Wonder Girl...

That is a shame to re-experience something like that. At least Tim is on an upswing instead of a continued downward spiral. The question is how long it'll last? I imagine if DC actually does release more of the YOUNG JUSTICE series in trade (and with the TV show on, now'll be their best chance in years), it'll remind more readers of happier times for many characters before the RETURN OF INFINITE FINAL BLACKEST NIGHT CRISIS WAR era.

Yeah, there is, and it seems pretty clear to me due to recent events, and reception of said events, that Dick will probably never be looked at as more than just a grown up Robin by writers and readers.

Which is also a shame. I think there is a lot to be said for a character who started out the partner/ward of a famous hero, but who evolved past that mentor in some aspects and became more of a broader hero. Wayne was Grayson's mentor and took over many roles for him, such as a father figure or so on. But Grayson ultimately became his own man, and the Titans were vital for that. Unlike Batman, who joined some teams but never really befriended anyone there, the Titans were like family to Grayson; hell, he almost married Starfire. While Grayson could be serious and determined, he wasn't as vengeful as Batman was. Ideally speaking, Nightwing as Nightwing could become as important as Green Arrow or other solo heroes, but realistically speaking that's unlikely.

I may as well get in an additional thought that I have brought up recently, that I think keys into this. It does come with the, admittedly, about 25 years of hindsight, but I think what has happened is because there are at least three Robin's, that they sort of forget they were supposed to be three different men and they become blurred in alternate media and sometimes in comics. Traits of one or the other become shared. And of course all are assumed to be Batmen in training or whatnot. I think the dilemma comes is that Robin is Grayson's identity; he created it and he was the only one who had reason to call himself that. Ironically, before CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, Jason Todd was pretty much a copy of Grayson, complete with a similar trapeze act origin (only he had to dye his hair black). After CRISIS, his origin changed to the "stealing tires from the Batmobile" origin, and Todd became more rebellious. I think if DC's creators had a chance to do it over again and not care about franchise expectations, both Todd and Drake should have had their own identities that were distinct to them, and personal to them. Instead they all decided to wear Grayson's old uniform (or modifications to it), and I don't think having endless characters be Robin has helped keep them distinct. Maybe if each had their own costumed identity from the start, writers and editors would not have forgotten that Drake was supposed to be lighter, or so on.

Of course, that would mean trying to convince legions of Bat-fans to accept a partner who wasn't Batgirl or Robin (as "Batboy" likely would not fly). And that was no easier now than in the 1980's. You could also argue that some better editing would have kept Drake from becoming dark or Grayson being pigeon holed. But sometimes I sit back and wonder what could have been. I think the problem isn't that Batman had so many partners, it was that they all wore the same uniform. But I say that as a mostly DC outsider, so I could be totally wrong. I think I recall something about Drake getting Grayson's blessing to take up the Robin mantle, which is fine. I don't know.

 

[Phaedrus45]

And now...back to our regularily scheduled reviews:

Driver For The Dead #1

Another title from Radical comics; and, while it held my interest, the previous two I reviewed were better.

Alabaster Graves is a driver for the dead, transporting special dead bodies to their final resting place. In this case, it's the body of Mose Freeman, recently dead after performing a ritual to remove a hoodoo curse from a young child. Along for the ride is Mose's great-granddaughter....and, Graves is not happy about having a guest in his hearse.

I might have enjoyed this comic more is there weren't so many supernatural books out there to read. I'm a bit zombie and vampired out.

Thor: The Mighty Avenger #2

I'm liking this title that fits in nicely with other similar titles Marvel is putting out lately, like Her-oes and Tobin's MA Spider-Man. Continuing from last issue where Thor regains his memory and powers after retrieving his hammer from Jane Foster's museum, Mr. Hyde returns to payback his humilation that Jane and Thor gave him. There is also a bit of The Last Avatar in this story, as Thor cannot find a way home and doesn't know what's happened since he became stranded on Midgard.

Fantastic Four #581

I'm really starting to hate this title. The annual was sooo good...but, Hickman didn't write that. Instead, we're back to another storyline out of the many that have been in this comic since Hickman took over. I seriously wish he'd focus on one thing, give it a beginning, middle and end, before going to something else. I thought we were gonna get an Annihilus storyline soon...but, that's not the case here. (And, frankly, I never have cared that much for Nathaniel Richards to begin with...let alone Hickman rewriting his history.)

X-Men Legacy #238

Color me surprised! I actually liked this issue of Legacy, even with it still focusing on Rogue way too much. Maybe that's because Magneto fits so well into the storyline. (Although, I really hope he gets to be involved with Hope and changing her focus past what Xavier or Cyclops would hope for.) There are some new, young mutants I'm not aware of in this issue; but, they seemed interesting enough. And, the people on the other side of "the membrane" (don't even ask me to explain that) seem like they'll make for a good storyline, too. It's definitely worth checking this issue out.

Secret Avengers #3

Yep, gotta agree with everyone on this thread. This issue was a huge letdown! Some of my favorite characters on this team don't even show up (i.e. Moon Knight), and those that do cannot get me interested in this story. This comic took a huge step back, and I would seriously reorder my Avengers list from last week's thread to reflect that.

X-Men Forever 2 #4

This book keeps getting better. Sure, past storylines from the first volume of this title haven't been close to being resolved; but, new characters are constantly being introduced, and Claremont has free reign to bring in anyone he feels like. (Like the previous two issues, featuring Spider-Man.) I loved the return of the Morlocks this issue and liked seeing Mystique joining the group. Best of all, it's not weighed down by all the other Marvel books and events ... or all the mutant baggage that came after Claremont left the title in the 90's.

 

[Themanofbat]

Driver For The Dead #1

Another title from Radical comics; and, while it held my interest, the previous two I reviewed were better.

Alabaster Graves is a driver for the dead, transporting special dead bodies to their final resting place. In this case, it's the body of Mose Freeman, recently dead after performing a ritual to remove a hoodoo curse from a young child. Along for the ride is Mose's great-granddaughter....and, Graves is not happy about having a guest in his hearse.

I might have enjoyed this comic more is there weren't so many supernatural books out there to read. I'm a bit zombie and vampired out.

I almost bought this, as I enjoyed the FCBD preview, but I decided to trade-wait it when I get it...

 

[iloveclones]

Bought Rogue's Revenge this week. Mostly because I dig Scott Kolins (if there were one artist that Marvel could pry from DC, it should be him. On Spidey, full-time)

I had no idea who Inertia, Zoom were, but I think they covered it fairly well. I take it this was written as a kind of prelude to Barry Allen returning?

All in all, a pretty good mini. Captain Cold and his crew all get a little more interesting each time I see them. Bad-Ass, and slightly sympathetic, all at the same time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Rogues' Revenge was actually a tie-in to Final Crisis that continued some plot points from the death of the fourth Flash, Bart Allen, at the end of his series. Inertia effectively duped the Rogues into killing Bart, causing the whole superhero hierarchy to come down on them like a ton of bricks, forcing them underground. The Rogues' main rule is to never actually kill a speedster--like a lot of very organized career criminals' main rule is to never kill a cop. The title refers to their taking revenge on Inertia for manipulating them into breaking that rule.

 

[iloveclones]

I loved how they completely trashed the "new" Rogues.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, they're very territorial. I love them for the same reason I love guys like Taskmaster--they're the consummate, career criminals. They're not gonna blow up the world or attempt genocide or anything, but they're fully committed to the criminal lifestyle and they've got sort of an unspoken agreement with the heroes that fair's fair, they'll get busted now and then, but they won't escalate things too much.