Bought/Thought September 4th, 2008

[Dread]

Absolutlely ridiculous.

What does Bendis writing a bunch of stuff have to do with that stuff affecting the rest of the MU, or NOT affecting the rest of the MU? You seem to want to draw a line where none exists.

You missed my point. Bendis' Avenger titles literally drive Marvel's entire line. They are in the background of every story that is launched. Every tale has to be told in the context of whatever Bendis is setting up or doing or has set up in the past on those Avengers books. Even events written by other people like WWH by Greg Pak and CW by Mark Millar are seemingly set up by Bendis Avenger books. MARVEL YOUR UNIVERSE SAGA pretty much spelled it out. In telling the "saga" of the Marvel universe from the past few years, Bendis stories DOMINATE. It was clear as day.

Regardless of the spotlight HoM, SI, NA and MA may recieve, nothing in those titles is required knowledge for anything other than what's going on in those titles. Please, explain to me how reading Bendis written books helps with understanding what's going on in Captain America, Nova, Iron Fist, Iron Man, Daredevil, Runaways, Punisher (either of them), Hulk, X-Men (the entire line, including Wolverine's titles), Hercules, Guardians of the Galaxy, Amazing Spider-Man, She-Hulk, Thor or any other title that I'm leaving out. Because, as far as I'm concerned, they require absolutely no working knowledge of Brian Bendis or his stories. That's a fact.

The entire X-Line has had to react to the end of HOUSE OF M. They spent nearly a year and a half avoiding it with alien stories and only now are trying to cope with it. Years later, HOM is effecting the X-books.

(FYI, for anyone keeping track, after years of muddling, the number of pre-HOM mutants is stated to be "millions" (previously calculated at "a million, maybe") and are now in the "hundreds" worldwide. Marvel's flip flopped on this every year or so.)

Hulk's titles are still reacting to WWH, which was set up by ILLUMINATI, which is followed up in Bendis Avengers titles.

Iron Man's CW actions were set up by ILLUMINATI.

Iron Fist is a New Avenger, but honestly that hasn't come much into play in the title beyond a few token mentions.

Guardians of the Galaxy is doing a SI tie in, which is a Bendis event, seemingly built up since NA #2 (if you believe he really has been planning it that long and Jessica Drew was always an imposter since issue #1, as Bendis wants people to believe; I don't, but some do). By that ground, every single SI tie in and mini is connected to Bendis' core story.

It's plain as day. The fact that Bendis stories got 10 out of 41 summaries when most writers, even A-Listers like Millar, barely had 3 stories that were cited in that "saga", seemed to lay out pretty clear who the engine of the Marvel Universe right now seems to be.

And guess who is trucked out for the next event, DARK REIGN? Bendis. With another Avenger title.

If you wanna buy NA or MA or SI and hate every minute, that's your business. Just don't make up excuses for it. Call it was it is, completionist, masochist, whatever the REAL reason is for buying something you hate.

I've cited completionism before in previous posts. I saw this SAGA one shot as a clear and obvious example of how those books, like it or not, drive the entire line. If you want to know anything about what is going on or ABOUT to go on in the MU, you need at least a rudimentary knowledge of those titles.

There's always Wikipedia and these very boards, too. I haven't read Mighty or New regularly in about a year and I don't feel like I've missed a thing.

Having to read Wikipedia to understand a comic book takes me right out of the story. No one likes to research things mid-panel.

Gage will give us a good explanation. I have faith in him. And if not him, then Pak. I have faith (mostly) in him, too. All will be well.

You have a point. Gage and Pak are usually dependable.

 

[Blader5489]

There's always Wikipedia and these very boards, too. I haven't read Mighty or New regularly in about a year and I don't feel like I've missed a thing.

Gage will give us a good explanation. I have faith in him. And if not him, then Pak. I have faith (mostly) in him, too. All will be well.

What? Pak sucks.

I wish people would stop crediting Incredible Hercules to Pak. It's an amazing book, but that's because of Van Lente, not Pak.

 

[Dread]

What? Pak sucks.

I wish people would stop crediting Incredible Hercules to Pak. It's an amazing book, but that's because of Van Lente, not Pak.

Pak can be hit or miss. He did good work with PLANET HULK and I liked most of WORLD WAR HULK overall. On the other hand, he also has done stuff like PHOENIX: WARSONG and MARVEL NEMESIS: THE IMPERFECTS.

 

[kguillou]

I gotta say that Dread's right about Bendis' incredible amount of leverage in the marvel universe. It seems like he could do whatever he wants with just about any marvel character. Heck, i still cant believe he killed off all of alpha flight in one page, thats it, done. He did the same thing with carnage, a major spiderman villain, all of a sudden killed in an avengers book. Quesada gives Bendis a very scary amount of power with his stories. I'm not knocking Bendis or anything, but it seems like he gets very trigger happy sometimes.

 

[GNR]

I think all of the Chaykin issues of PWJ have been solid.Matt's delivered a gritty/street level superhero comic that doesn't try to be MAX-lite.The finale was a bit too fast,but I enjoyed everything up to there.

Eternals has been awesome,Acuna's art mixed with all the great mythic aspects of the story is making this a great read.Started slow,but the last 3 issues have been a big improvement.

 

[Mr. Green]

What? Pak sucks.

I wish people would stop crediting Incredible Hercules to Pak. It's an amazing book, but that's because of Van Lente, not Pak.

Again with the Pak-bashing? I just posted this in the SI thread but here we go again...

Fred has been nothing but a pleasure to work with. Neither of us had ever co-written with anybody before, so we sat down and went, "Well, let's do it." We sit down and hammer out the pages. Usually one of us [will] pound out the page-by-page and then send it to the other guy who will tweak it, edit it, send it back. Then the first guy will tweak it and send it back until we're happy. And then we just split up the script. Sometimes he'll write the first half, I'll write the second half. Sometimes he'll write the middle and I'll write the beginning and end. However it is, we split up the script and send pages to each other, we edit each other, and then we hammer it out. At a certain point, we'll say, "This works!"

It's been great because we'll both catch each other. Like there are points where if your head is getting tired of a certain area and you're not quite figuring out a scene, you can send it to the other guy, and he will be fresh and can fix it. He sends it back to you, and you go, "Yeah, that's the way it should be!" We're always just saving each other in that regard.

The other thing is that we're having a lot of fun because we're surprising each other. We know what the story is going to be, and we know what most of the gags are going to be, but still, when you get the pages back from somebody [else], there's something fresh and fun about how the other guy has played out a scene. I always find myself laughing when I get to certain lines, and in a way we're having fun surprising each other with the writing. That encourages us to take some risks and to have fun in a way that's paid off.

This is from an interview with Greg Pak from Marvel's web site.

As you can see, they both chip in quite equally but Pak has more than proved himself as a writer if you doubt he is capable of "keeping up" with Van Lente. And since Cho is Pak's character and Pak completely set up the Incredible Herc's story line in the Incredible Hulk arc during WWH before Van Lente came on board, I would say you're pretty much completely wrong.

And how many writers consistently pace their books as fast as Pak does while maintaining great dialogue and characterization? Planet Hulk was a masterpiece. By the end of issue one we were already in the thick of things. Read JMS' Thor on the other hand and three pages are devoted to Thor walking into a building... I like JMS' Thor and all but the point stands: most comicbook writers just move so slow. Pak is obviously an integral part of the creative team and it's just plain silly to say, "Incredible Herc is great but the guy who writes half of the book and set up the entire premise of the book sucks."

 

[fifthfiend]

Agreed with the caveat that Pak really didn't need to repeat THE AWFUL THING THAT WAS DONE TO HULK like twelve times an issue in WWH.

 

[Hans]

You missed my point. Bendis' Avenger titles literally drive Marvel's entire line. They are in the background of every story that is launched. Every tale has to be told in the context of whatever Bendis is setting up or doing or has set up in the past on those Avengers books. Even events written by other people like WWH by Greg Pak and CW by Mark Millar are seemingly set up by Bendis Avenger books. MARVEL YOUR UNIVERSE SAGA pretty much spelled it out. In telling the "saga" of the Marvel universe from the past few years, Bendis stories DOMINATE. It was clear as day.

Yeah, no. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if you're trying to make Bendis seem more important than he actually is to justify your unhealthy hatred for his stories, but whatever it is, it's clouding your ability to think.

"Every tale," huh? What about Bendis' books is required knowledge for enjoying Iron Fist? Daredevil? Captain America? Iron Man? Amazing Spider-Man? Runaways? What about books that tie into whatever company wide event, like Nova, Gaurdians of the Galaxy or Hercules? You're seriously trying to argue that a reader would be COMPLETELY clueless as to what's going on in any of those books without having read something Bendis has written? That's ridiculous.

The MU is a shared universe. That means sometimes stories in one book can reflect or be referenced in another book. But that is a completely different concept than what you're going on about. You're saying that a reader MUST read Bendis' books, otherwise the ability to enjoy and understand other books is diminished to the point that those books are incomprehensible.

Yeah, there's no way you can truely believe that. You're using this as an excuse to mask something else.

And the reason Bendis strories dominated that Your Universe thing is because Bendis' books are always at the top of the best sellers list. Of course Marvel puts the majority of the spotlight on them. But that doesn't Bendis spills over into other books. It just doesn't. Plenty of people read Marvel books while avoiding Bendis like the plague and they can enjoy and comprehend those books just fine. If you can't, then the problem is with you and no one else.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I think all of the Chaykin issues of PWJ have been solid.Matt's delivered a gritty/street level superhero comic that doesn't try to be MAX-lite.The finale was a bit too fast,but I enjoyed everything up to there.

That more or less is my point, as well, WJ isn't trying to be MAX Punisher, it's not even trying to be serious from what I've seen. It's fine that people don't like it, but I just think it's overkill when people rant and rave and call for boycotts on it and even bash Fraction as a whole simply because it's not doing something it never set out to do in the first place.

 

[Blader5489]

Dread, this is hard for me to say because we butt heads so often, but... you're not a moron. So you really don't need to read every single thing Bendis writes--neglecting good books along the way, I might add--just to understand what's going on in Marvel.

For example, I have never read House of M or Planet Hulk. Yet, I have been able to follow stories like Messiah Complex and WWH just fine. See? You can do it too. Just gotta use some of that common sense God gave ya.

 

[kguillou]

Originally Posted by Hans

Yeah, no. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if you're trying to make Bendis seem more important than he actually is to justify your unhealthy hatred for his stories, but whatever it is, it's clouding your ability to think.

"Every tale," huh? What about Bendis' books is required knowledge for enjoying Iron Fist? Daredevil? Captain America? Iron Man? Amazing Spider-Man? Runaways? What about books that tie into whatever company wide event, like Nova, Gaurdians of the Galaxy or Hercules? You're seriously trying to argue that a reader would be COMPLETELY clueless as to what's going on in any of those books without having read something Bendis has written? That's ridiculous.

The MU is a shared universe. That means sometimes stories in one book can reflect or be referenced in another book. But that is a completely different concept than what you're going on about. You're saying that a reader MUST read Bendis' books, otherwise the ability to enjoy and understand other books is diminished to the point that those books are incomprehensible.

Yeah, there's no way you can truely believe that. You're using this as an excuse to mask something else.

And the reason Bendis strories dominated that Your Universe thing is because Bendis' books are always at the top of the best sellers list. Of course Marvel puts the majority of the spotlight on them. But that doesn't Bendis spills over into other books. It just doesn't. Plenty of people read Marvel books while avoiding Bendis like the plague and they can enjoy and comprehend those books just fine. If you can't, then the problem is with you and no one else.

Hans, I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but i think that all Dread is trying to say is that several of Bendis' stories are essential for truly understanding the way the Marvel U is today.

Let's say you used to read marvel comics 10 years ago then took a break for a while and are just now getting back into them. You're gonna be utterly confused because everything is so different now, and the books that spear headed that change were Avengers Disassembled and Secret War. Dissembled broke up the avengers and Secret War got rid of Nick Fury. You'd need to read those stories in order to understand where the MU is now. I would argue that Millar's Civil War is the most important story to read, but Bendis writes a lot of important stories. He changed the hulk forever with one issue of Illuminati, he's got the avengers on separate teams, he eliminated most of the mutants and he's revealing people as skrulls. If your a newcomer to comics anyway, then it may not matter, but if your returning to them it can be confusing without reading some of Bendis' events first.

 

[Hans]

Hans, I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but i think that all Dread is trying to say is that several of Bendis' stories are essential for truly understanding the way the Marvel U is today.

Let's say you used to read marvel comics 10 years ago then took a break for a while and are just now getting back into them. You're gonna be utterly confused because everything is so different now, and the books that spear headed that change were Avengers Disassembled and Secret War. Dissembled broke up the avengers and Secret War got rid of Nick Fury. You'd need to read those stories in order to understand where the MU is now. I would argue that Millar's Civil War is the most important story to read, but Bendis writes a lot of important stories. He changed the hulk forever with one issue of Illuminati, he's got the avengers on separate teams, he eliminated most of the mutants and he's revealing people as skrulls. If your a newcomer to comics anyway, then it may not matter, but if your returning to them it can be confusing without reading some of Bendis' events first.

I'll repeat what I said before: You do NOT have to read a Bendis-penned story to understand a non-Bendis-penned story. And if you are a regular poster on a MB like this, like Dread is, there is simply no excuse whatsoever for saying anything to the contrary.

And I don't think I mentioned it before, but I skipped ALL of HoM, and I had no trouble understanding what was going on afterwards.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, no. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I don't know if you're trying to make Bendis seem more important than he actually is to justify your unhealthy hatred for his stories, but whatever it is, it's clouding your ability to think.

You're implying that Bendis stories aren't important? Even without MARVEL SAGA, that theory is a bit absurd at this point to anyone who tries to keep continuity together for the past 4 or so years.

"Every tale," huh? What about Bendis' books is required knowledge for enjoying Iron Fist? Daredevil? Captain America? Iron Man? Amazing Spider-Man? Runaways? What about books that tie into whatever company wide event, like Nova, Gaurdians of the Galaxy or Hercules? You're seriously trying to argue that a reader would be COMPLETELY clueless as to what's going on in any of those books without having read something Bendis has written? That's ridiculous.

What is "ridiculous" is how I already covered books such as Captain America, Daredevil, X-Men, and others you mentioned in a previous post.

The entire X-Line has had to react to the end of HOUSE OF M. They spent nearly a year and a half avoiding it with alien stories and only now are trying to cope with it. Years later, HOM is effecting the X-books.

(FYI, for anyone keeping track, after years of muddling, the number of pre-HOM mutants is stated to be "millions" (previously calculated at "a million, maybe") and are now in the "hundreds" worldwide. Marvel's flip flopped on this every year or so.)

Hulk's titles are still reacting to WWH, which was set up by ILLUMINATI, which is followed up in Bendis Avengers titles.

Iron Man's CW actions were set up by ILLUMINATI.

Iron Fist is a New Avenger, but honestly that hasn't come much into play in the title beyond a few token mentions.

Guardians of the Galaxy is doing a SI tie in, which is a Bendis event, seemingly built up since NA #2 (if you believe he really has been planning it that long and Jessica Drew was always an imposter since issue #1, as Bendis wants people to believe; I don't, but some do). By that ground, every single SI tie in and mini is connected to Bendis' core story.

The MU is a shared universe. That means sometimes stories in one book can reflect or be referenced in another book. But that is a completely different concept than what you're going on about. You're saying that a reader MUST read Bendis' books, otherwise the ability to enjoy and understand other books is diminished to the point that those books are incomprehensible.

What I actually said was:

"If you want to know anything about what is going on or ABOUT to go on in the MU, you need at least a rudimentary knowledge of those titles."

The thing is, this isn't just me. That is the impression from MARVEL SAGA, which was provided FREE to all comic buyers (at least while supplies last). Marvel themselves very clearly see Bendis as driving their entire line, or at least a quarter of their net content from a four year period, either being involved directly or setting things up as backdrop.

To argue against this is to claim that you can comprehend everything DC is doing without reading a single book by Geoff Johns, or to claim he isn't of vital importance to the DC line. Bendis is AT LEAST as vital to Marvel as Johns is to DC.

If your argument is semantics rather than my direct point, that is another matter.

Yeah, there's no way you can truely believe that. You're using this as an excuse to mask something else.

And the reason Bendis strories dominated that Your Universe thing is because Bendis' books are always at the top of the best sellers list. Of course Marvel puts the majority of the spotlight on them. But that doesn't Bendis spills over into other books. It just doesn't. Plenty of people read Marvel books while avoiding Bendis like the plague and they can enjoy and comprehend those books just fine. If you can't, then the problem is with you and no one else.

Chicken or the egg? Bendis's stories are top sellers, but he was given the chance on Avengers in 2004 and handed a lot of leeway, despite at the time being known only for success on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and DAREDEVIL (which was selling well, but was hardly in the Top 15). When he proved able to provide the #1 comic in the industry, then that power and influence expanded. It makes a practical sense, but to deny that it exists seems a bit odd.

My point is that Bendis' Avenger titles and many other stories, like them or not, drive the entire line. Marvel considers them of upmost importance and the continuity Bendis writes or mangles extends into other books. Other stories in the connected universe conform to what he is doing to match; not vice versa.

Dread, this is hard for me to say because we butt heads so often, but... you're not a moron. So you really don't need to read every single thing Bendis writes--neglecting good books along the way, I might add--just to understand what's going on in Marvel.

For example, I have never read House of M or Planet Hulk. Yet, I have been able to follow stories like Messiah Complex and WWH just fine. See? You can do it too. Just gotta use some of that common sense God gave ya.

I don't read everything he writes. I don't read POWERS. I actually missed the last half or so of his DAREDEVIL run, which is still probably his best work. I dropped USM after Clone Saga. I never read ALIAS (and lord knows a lot of NEW AVENGERS continued the Jones/Cage storyline from there) And I really am not planning on reading DARK AVENGERS, even though it is the premire book for the next Marvel event. Not bad for a guy whose stories are meaningless, eh?

Besides, you know how it is. I drop Bendis' AVENGERS titles, the lifeblood of Marvel storylines these days. Then a topic comes up and I want to comment about them. Someone goes, "whoops, you don't read the books, so your opinion is worthless." And they're right.

Granted, that's never come up when I say something about USM, but that's USM. It isn't as important to Marvel or as heavilly and intimately discussed as what goes on in, especially, NEW AVENGERS.

Hans, I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but i think that all Dread is trying to say is that several of Bendis' stories are essential for truly understanding the way the Marvel U is today.

Exactly.

I'll repeat what I said before: You do NOT have to read a Bendis-penned story to understand a non-Bendis-penned story. And if you are a regular poster on a MB like this, like Dread is, there is simply no excuse whatsoever for saying anything to the contrary.

And I don't think I mentioned it before, but I skipped ALL of HoM, and I had no trouble understanding what was going on afterwards.

Maybe I'm too old school. I like understanding the context and backdrop and premise of a comic or direction from one reading without having to scour the Internet to understand references.

You really had no trouble understanding X-Men books after HOM? I guess you can make sense of Hawkman's history, too.

 

[Hans]

You're implying that Bendis stories aren't important? Even without MARVEL SAGA, that theory is a bit absurd at this point to anyone who tries to keep continuity together for the past 4 or so years.

No, I'm not implying that Bendis stories aren't important. I'm saying that they are not SO important that they must be read in order to comprehend othe books? See the difference?

What is "ridiculous" is how I already covered books such as Captain America, Daredevil, X-Men, and others you mentioned in a previous post.

The entire X-Line has had to react to the end of HOUSE OF M. They spent nearly a year and a half avoiding it with alien stories and only now are trying to cope with it. Years later, HOM is effecting the X-books.

(FYI, for anyone keeping track, after years of muddling, the number of pre-HOM mutants is stated to be "millions" (previously calculated at "a million, maybe") and are now in the "hundreds" worldwide. Marvel's flip flopped on this every year or so.)

Hulk's titles are still reacting to WWH, which was set up by ILLUMINATI, which is followed up in Bendis Avengers titles.

Iron Man's CW actions were set up by ILLUMINATI.

Iron Fist is a New Avenger, but honestly that hasn't come much into play in the title beyond a few token mentions.

Guardians of the Galaxy is doing a SI tie in, which is a Bendis event, seemingly built up since NA #2 (if you believe he really has been planning it that long and Jessica Drew was always an imposter since issue #1, as Bendis wants people to believe; I don't, but some do). By that ground, every single SI tie in and mini is connected to Bendis' core story.

And? SHARED UNIVERSE. You can't honesty sit there and say that HoM or Illuminati or whatever is REQUIRED reading. It's not. It's like saying grass is red. Unless there's blood on the ground, it's not.

I didn't read Planet Hulk, but I had no problem understanding and enjoying WWH.

What I actually said was:

"If you want to know anything about what is going on or ABOUT to go on in the MU, you need at least a rudimentary knowledge of those titles."

The thing is, this isn't just me. That is the impression from MARVEL SAGA, which was provided FREE to all comic buyers (at least while supplies last). Marvel themselves very clearly see Bendis as driving their entire line, or at least a quarter of their net content from a four year period, either being involved directly or setting things up as backdrop.

To argue against this is to claim that you can comprehend everything DC is doing without reading a single book by Geoff Johns, or to claim he isn't of vital importance to the DC line. Bendis is AT LEAST as vital to Marvel as Johns is to DC.

If your argument is semantics rather than my direct point, that is another matter.

You also justify each and every NA purchase by saying, "I buy it to keep up." False. You buy it for a reason, but it's not to understand other books. The recap pages and in story references do that just fine.

Chicken or the egg? Bendis's stories are top sellers, but he was given the chance on Avengers in 2004 and handed a lot of leeway, despite at the time being known only for success on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and DAREDEVIL (which was selling well, but was hardly in the Top 15). When he proved able to provide the #1 comic in the industry, then that power and influence expanded. It makes a practical sense, but to deny that it exists seems a bit odd.

My point is that Bendis' Avenger titles and many other stories, like them or not, drive the entire line. Marvel considers them of upmost importance and the continuity Bendis writes or mangles extends into other books. Other stories in the connected universe conform to what he is doing to match; not vice versa.

I feel like I'm arguing with a Republican. "Words mean something. You can't just make **** up," and all that. What you're saying just is not true. You're either terribly delusional or you're lying through your teeth. I honestly tell which is which. What Bendis is doing has nothing--NOTHING--to do with Brubaker's plans in Captain America. Nothing. It has nothing to do with Iron Fist. It has nothing to do with Amazing Spider-Man. It has nothing to do with Runaways. There ARE books that tie in to MARVEL'S EVENTS that Bendis HAPPENS to write, but that's expected. And even then, they do it so lightly that you don't have to actually read the main event title to be able to follow along. ALL the books' respective writers will tell you as much.
To sit there and imply, for example, that Guardians of the Galaxy is being "driven" by what Bendis does and doesn't do is asinine. Sure, it pops into SI, but there's no logical rationalization that can say that you must read NA or MA to understand GoG's SI tie-ins. And not only that, but you're completely disrespecting every other writer at Marvel by saying that their stories are being dictated by one other writer.
And I'm not denying that Bendis is successful writer who's been given top-tier work. Why would I? He's Marvel's go to guy for their top stuff. But surprise, surprise, that's got nothing to do with the rest of the line. See how you can read Fraction's Iron Man without having read a single Bendis written Avengers book? It's like that. How is it that you cannot (or rather refuse) to comprehend that?

Maybe I'm too old school. I like understanding the context and backdrop and premise of a comic or direction from one reading without having to scour the Internet to understand references.

You really had no trouble understanding X-Men books after HOM? I guess you can make sense of Hawkman's history, too.

So you're admitting to spending cash on Bendis books so you can…***** about them on the internet? Oh my God, dude.

Who says you have "scour the internet"? Can't you just know that Skrulls have invaded Earth? I mean, Jesus Christ, it's everywhere. It's not like you're new to comics or comics websites. I don't read Ghost Rider, but I know without actively researching anything that he's actually an angel, that Dan Ketch is back and that he's working as a bad guy. These are things that you just pick up, via previews, solicits, recap pages and whatnot. And how could ANYONE have trouble understanding the X-books if they haven't read HoM when ALL the characters do is talk about the events. I didn't need HoM to understand anything. You make it sound like Marvel is producing these books in some secret code by which only purchasing Bendis books will allow you to decipher them. Good Christ.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Hans, why does dreads opinions on bendis mean so much to you?

You're point being bendis isn't essential to understand the current MU. Cool.

His point being that he wants a first hand account of the big goings on, despite story quality. Cool.

So what the hell guys? You two going to have this exact same agruement every time dread reviews a bendis title?

Personally I can see each of your views. I'm in the middle in that I buy the event books but none of the tie ins unless they seem really good. Dread's right in that bendis is currently shaping the MU and if you want a first hand account of the big happenings rather than just reading a summary which is generally incomplete and often missing the point you have to get the book. Hans is right in that none of bendis' stories are worth bothering with and basically follow the exact same formula: Danger comes from ultra chick, heroes panic and act incompetant, certian doom, dues ex machina saves us all, resolution makes everyone whiney. Rinse repeat.

Now for the love of god, drop it. Neither person is convincing the other and I think I speak for all the internets when I say, we don't want to keep hearing the same argument anymore.

 

[Hans]

Long story short, stupidity is frustrating, no matter what form it takes. Calling a dog a cat and then going on about how the dog is a cat is a sure fire way to provoke my responses of rational thinking, reason and logic.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Dread is very far from stupid. A masochist maybe, but not stupid. His rants on Bendis' crappy writing are 100% dead on target.

 

[Hans]

Dread is very far from stupid. A masochist maybe, but not stupid. His rants on Bendis' crappy writing are 100% dead on target.

I wasn't responding to that, though.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Were you referring to the fact that he wastes his money on the books then?

Yeah, I have no defense for that. Sorry, Dread

 

[Hans]

Did you read any of those posts?

 

[Doc Destruction]

Yeah I did...and I have to agree that to keep up with the MU these days, you kinda have no choice but to read a book touched by Bendis. He is their event master and has been for years.

198, registration act, skrull invasion...etc, etc, etc.

If you don't at least have some knowledge of the main books, you get totally lost. I prefer to read the books in the store so I can gag in public and not waste my money, but at least I know what's going on.

And Wiki and these boards don't really help the entire comic reading experience. Which, I will be damned if some hack writer with the keys to the MU will ruin for me completely.

 

[yenaled]

I don't read any Bendis ongoings (I read Illuminati and reading SI).

Last ongoing by him I read was Daredevil and I actually dropped that before he finished.

I don't feel like I'm lost in the MU at all.

 

[Dread]

No, I'm not implying that Bendis stories aren't important. I'm saying that they are not SO important that they must be read in order to comprehend othe books? See the difference?

To comprehend some books, they do. And for the rest, they create a context. Plus, sometimes you never know who is getting killed off or has a key appearance.

And? SHARED UNIVERSE. You can't honesty sit there and say that HoM or Illuminati or whatever is REQUIRED reading. It's not. It's like saying grass is red. Unless there's blood on the ground, it's not.

I didn't read Planet Hulk, but I had no problem understanding and enjoying WWH.

Those were Greg Pak stories. Reading Planet Hulk without the Illuminati prelude, though, doesn't give the whole story.

Marvel is a shared universe, but they are sharing what Bendis does more than many other writers. MARVEL SAGA I felt made that point in simple text and easy to follow summaries.

You also justify each and every NA purchase by saying, "I buy it to keep up." False. You buy it for a reason, but it's not to understand other books. The recap pages and in story references do that just fine.

They don't do enough for continuity, detail nerds like me sometimes.

I feel like I'm arguing with a Republican. "Words mean something. You can't just make **** up," and all that.

Now you're stereotyping Republicans? Politics taints us all.

What you're saying just is not true. You're either terribly delusional or you're lying through your teeth. I honestly [can't] tell which is which. What Bendis is doing has nothing--NOTHING--to do with Brubaker's plans in Captain America. Nothing. It has nothing to do with Iron Fist. It has nothing to do with Amazing Spider-Man. It has nothing to do with Runaways. There ARE books that tie in to MARVEL'S EVENTS that Bendis HAPPENS to write, but that's expected. And even then, they do it so lightly that you don't have to actually read the main event title to be able to follow along. ALL the books' respective writers will tell you as much.

According to Marvel Saga, not just my "delusional" mind, Bendis' Avengers stories provided the backdrop to four years of Marvel. They created the breeding ground for WWH, Decimation, and Civil War. They "led up" to those. Disassembled, Secret War, and Illuminati all "led" to such events. House of M still has a legacy.

MARVEL SAGA to me was proof that Bendis has a massive influence on the line and New Avengers at the very least is a "primer" to most of whatever Marvel is doing in a given year. Bendis' stories drive the line. They're top of the pyramid. Some knowledge of it is required. Every book eventually has to stumble across something.

To sit there and imply, for example, that Guardians of the Galaxy is being "driven" by what Bendis does and doesn't do is asinine. Sure, it pops into SI, but there's no logical rationalization that can say that you must read NA or MA to understand GoG's SI tie-ins. And not only that, but you're completely disrespecting every other writer at Marvel by saying that their stories are being dictated by one other writer.

Without SECRET INVASION, there would be no tie-in with GOTG. That is pretty simple math. DnA wouldn't have to risk either sacrificing one of their team-members or having them aimlessly fight each other before issue 6.

I never said "dictated". I stated that Bendis' stories have an influence over Marvel that they create the backdrop that other stories in Marvel follow.

Easy example; Dan Slott in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE wrote Yellowjacket for a whole year before we would eventually learn that he was always a Skrull mole. Now, I haven't asked Dan so I don't know if he planned for that to happen via a creator summit in '06 or something. But the fact remained that he now had to change his story. Hank's been a mole since 2004, at the latest. He has to play along. Now, he's done so and done it well. But without knowing more about the backdrop of the story, the change seems....abrupt.

If a new status quo is set up in New Avengers, other Marvel books acknowledge it, by either choice or decree. But that doesn't negate the influence.

It is like the commercial says; "There are passengers, and then there are drivers." Bendis is Marvel's driver, and MARVEL SAGA all but acknowledges that. Other writers can, and DO, come up with creative ways to work with this, and integrate it into what they are doing. But that doesn't change the fact that like them or not, Bendis' works are primers for MU.

And I'm not denying that Bendis is successful writer who's been given top-tier work. Why would I? He's Marvel's go to guy for their top stuff. But surprise, surprise, that's got nothing to do with the rest of the line. See how you can read Fraction's Iron Man without having read a single Bendis written Avengers book? It's like that. How is it that you cannot (or rather refuse) to comprehend that?

INVINCIBLE IRON MAN is an exception. I never said there weren't exceptions. It is more based around the movie if anything.

So you're admitting to spending cash on Bendis books so you can…***** about them on the internet? Oh my God, dude.

Don't people who post reviews of things on the Internet basically do that? Yeah, I'm the only moron out there.

Who says you have "scour the internet"? Can't you just know that Skrulls have invaded Earth? I mean, Jesus Christ, it's everywhere. It's not like you're new to comics or comics websites. I don't read Ghost Rider, but I know without actively researching anything that he's actually an angel, that Dan Ketch is back and that he's working as a bad guy. These are things that you just pick up, via previews, solicits, recap pages and whatnot. And how could ANYONE have trouble understanding the X-books if they haven't read HoM when ALL the characters do is talk about the events. I didn't need HoM to understand anything. You make it sound like Marvel is producing these books in some secret code by which only purchasing Bendis books will allow you to decipher them. Good Christ.

What is enough knowledge and detail for you may not be for another person. You can have someone summarize a movie or novel, or you can read it yourself. The effects and understanding are not the same.

Now for the love of god, drop it. Neither person is convincing the other and I think I speak for all the internets when I say, we don't want to keep hearing the same argument anymore.

Fair enough.

Long story short, stupidity is frustrating, no matter what form it takes. Calling a dog a cat and then going on about how the dog is a cat is a sure fire way to provoke my responses of rational thinking, reason and logic.

What I find frustrating is someone who can't understand a simple point, or another perspective.

Dread is very far from stupid. A masochist maybe, but not stupid. His rants on Bendis' crappy writing are 100% dead on target.

I'll cop to some masochism. I've stayed on some sinking comic ships too long.

Were you referring to the fact that he wastes his money on the books then?

Yeah, I have no defense for that. Sorry, Dread

S'okay. I am sure Hans always spends every cent of his on 100% logical choices, and in this economy, bless him for that.

Yeah I did...and I have to agree that to keep up with the MU these days, you kinda have no choice but to read a book touched by Bendis. He is their event master and has been for years.

198, registration act, skrull invasion...etc, etc, etc.

If you don't at least have some knowledge of the main books, you get totally lost. I prefer to read the books in the store so I can gag in public and not waste my money, but at least I know what's going on.

And Wiki and these boards don't really help the entire comic reading experience. Which, I will be damned if some hack writer with the keys to the MU will ruin for me completely.

Exactly.

I don't read any Bendis ongoings (I read Illuminati and reading SI).

Last ongoing by him I read was Daredevil and I actually dropped that before he finished.

I don't feel like I'm lost in the MU at all.

You are, though, reading SOME of his stories. And seeing their influence, right?

 

[Blader5489]

Easy example; Dan Slott in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE wrote Yellowjacket for a whole year before we would eventually learn that he was always a Skrull mole. Now, I haven't asked Dan so I don't know if he planned for that to happen via a creator summit in '06 or something. But the fact remained that he now had to change his story. Hank's been a mole since 2004, at the latest. He has to play along. Now, he's done so and done it well. But without knowing more about the backdrop of the story, the change seems....abrupt.

Slott said he has known who the Skrulls are since the beginning of A:TI.

 

[Dread]

Slott said he has known who the Skrulls are since the beginning of A:TI.

Very well then.

Speaking for myself, if I hadn't been reading SECRET INVASION, the NA & MA tie-in's that explain it, and so on, and simply read A:TI, the change would have been VERY abrupt and a major, "WTF" kind of moment. But as I do, it was less of a shock, and I was able to better appreciate Slott's take on things with the full context.

For some people, hey, maybe it isn't as big of a deal. There are types of people who can start watching a movie from the midway point and still enjoy it. I usually don't; I want to see beginning, middle, and end and fully appreciate it and judge it. I want context. I want to be able to react to it without a question mark about the unknown.

I mean, I read two DC books and every time I presume something, I usually am dead wrong because I don't follow the rest of the universe. It gets frustrating.