Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[TheCorpulent1]

So, basically, you like characters that like Spike?

 

[TheFuture]

So, basically, you like characters that like Spike?

No, I didn't care much for Buffy in the last 2 seasons.

I like the rapport, and the reasons why he established friendships with both women. One of the best moments of "The Body" for me was that of Spike putting Xander in his place. He wasn't there to impress Buffy, he was there to pay respects for his friend (his plan was to quietly leave flowers and then go).

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I hate just about everything involving Spike past season 5, but that was a nice moment.

 

[TheFuture]

I hate just about everything involving Spike past season 5, but that was a nice moment.

I liked where they were going with him in S5, and in the early, early part of S6. But then they ruined it by having Buffy use him, and then having him trying to rape Buffy.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked the rape thing, actually (that sounds bad but you know what I mean). Totally in-character for a vampire with a chip in his brain who can't get his aggression out on any other humans, especially after Buffy used him like she did.

 

[TheFuture]

I liked the rape thing, actually (that sounds bad but you know what I mean). Totally in-character for a vampire with a chip in his brain who can't get his aggression out on any other humans, especially after Buffy used him like she did.

I know what you mean, that is where they were coming from too probably. I just don't like that they built him up as changing, that he changed without having a soul, that it was his choice to change then to just let the vampire in him take control again.

 

[The Question]

That actually makes a lot of sense, though. Personal changes aren't over night and they have ups and downs. People who've made an enormous amount of progress do sometimes fall back into old, bad habits, or new worse ones, when things get bad. Made his character arc feel more organic to me.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Spike was still a pretty depraved individual. He just had a chip in his head that prevented him from acting on his impulses. It was forced change, not something he did willingly--but he's also a survivor, so he adapted to it. Then he got rejected by Buffy and lashed out the way I imagine any truly depraved, f***ed up guy would when he's denied what he wants.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I hate just about everything involving Spike past season 5, but that was a nice moment.

Ya I agree. Espically in Season7 he just felt so forced imo. Espically since it was the last season I wanted the show to revolve more around the original Scooby Gang.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, Spike was still a pretty depraved individual. He just had a chip in his head that prevented him from acting on his impulses. It was forced change, not something he did willingly--but he's also a survivor, so he adapted to it. Then he got rejected by Buffy and lashed out the way I imagine any truly depraved, f***ed up guy would when he's denied what he wants.

Well, I think on some level, I think he did want to change, largely because of Buffy. And, if you look at the scene, you'll realize that it wasn't a complete reversal of his arc: After the failed attempt, he was quite obviously horrified with what he'd done. Season two Spike, a guy who saw snapping a stranger's neck as anger management, wouldn't have felt anything, besides maybe thinking afterwards that it wasn't really "his style" and was more of a heat of the moment thing. And even that I doubt somewhat.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The chip did lead to some real change, but I think a lot of people overly romanticize Spike's change. If that chip came out of his head anytime before the rape attempt, he would've been back out killing people in no time.

 

[The Question]

The chip did lead to some real change, but I think a lot of people overly romanticize Spike's change. If that chip came out of his head anytime before the rape attempt, he would've been back out killing people in no time.

I think his desire to impress Buffy might have tempered his more violent tendencies without the chip. Not completely, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if, chip-less but pining for Buffy, there was a moment's hesitation before doing something nasty.

 

[Matt.S99]

I hate just about everything involving Spike past season 5, but that was a nice moment.

Spike became an Angel wannabe

 

[marukisu]

Spike became an Angel wannabe

I never understood the Spike fanboy-ism although im glad he came back for Season 5 of Angel because he kinda filled in Cordelia's place.

 

[Sawyer]

I'm glad he went over to Angel on season 5 because it turned him back into the wise-ass that he used to be instead of Buffy's b****.

 

[marukisu]

I'm glad he went over to Angel on season 5 because it turned him back into the wise-ass that he used to be instead of Buffy's b****.

lol that was until "The Girl In Question" and then both Spike and Angel kinda got back on their ***** whipped mode.

 

[Sawyer]

lol that was until "The Girl In Question" and then both Spike and Angel kinda got back on their ***** whipped mode.

IMO, they're both better off without her.

 

[marukisu]

IMO, they're both better off without her.

In a sense yea. Buffy/Angel relationships were epic but the thing i like about them is that like real life,they dont always last.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

I liked Once More with Feeling and Hush best of all.

 

[marukisu]

I liked Once More with Feeling and Hush best of all.

Those were good episodes.

 

[Syncos]

I know what you mean, that is where they were coming from too probably. I just don't like that they built him up as changing, that he changed without having a soul, that it was his choice to change then to just let the vampire in him take control again.

I actually love that part. It's what makes his character different from Angel. And during season 5 of Angel they really explore that. Angel spent just over a century reliving the pain he caused people because he was cursed with a soul. Given a choice Angelus would have never chosen to have a soul.

Spike fought to get his soul back, and doesn't often reflect on what he's done. (not that he's completely devoid of introspection). It's a great dynamic, maybe not for the Buffy series, but most definitely for when he crossed over to Angel.

 

[pyromaniac]

No, I didn't care much for Buffy in the last 2 seasons.

I like the rapport, and the reasons why he established friendships with both women. One of the best moments of "The Body" for me was that of Spike putting Xander in his place. He wasn't there to impress Buffy, he was there to pay respects for his friend (his plan was to quietly leave flowers and then go).

He never appeared in The Body.

And speaking of Spike. Watching him in Season 7, up to Bring on The Night, I think he has some great characterisation that's really consistent and believable.

Take the exchange with Spike realising why Buffy used him, that it was about the violence, the violence that self hatred brings.

Buffy initially is disbelieving: "William the Bloody now has insight into violence?"

And Spike says it's not the same, that because he had a soul, and he fought for it (originally, it seemed unclear as to whether it was the soul he wanted, or the removal of the chip), he now understands the self hatred and why/how it can be projected onto people.

Just good stuff like this. Spike definitely seemed to have the most development of everyone in Season 7, but I don't think it was really at the expense of everyone else: they had their fair share, it just wasn't enough for certain people. Anya and Xander for instance.

 

[TheFuture]

He never appeared in The Body.

And speaking of Spike. Watching him in Season 7, up to Bring on The Night, I think he has some great characterisation that's really consistent and believable.

Take the exchange with Spike realising why Buffy used him, that it was about the violence, the violence that self hatred brings.

Buffy initially is disbelieving: "William the Bloody now has insight into violence?"

And Spike says it's not the same, that because he had a soul, and he fought for it (originally, it seemed unclear as to whether it was the soul he wanted, or the removal of the chip), he now understands the self hatred and why/how it can be projected onto people.

Just good stuff like this. Spike definitely seemed to have the most development of everyone in Season 7, but I don't think it was really at the expense of everyone else: they had their fair share, it just wasn't enough for certain people. Anya and Xander for instance.

Whoops, you're right, that scene was from Forever.....

 

[TheFuture]

I actually love that part. It's what makes his character different from Angel. And during season 5 of Angel they really explore that. Angel spent just over a century reliving the pain he caused people because he was cursed with a soul. Given a choice Angelus would have never chosen to have a soul.

Spike fought to get his soul back, and doesn't often reflect on what he's done. (not that he's completely devoid of introspection). It's a great dynamic, maybe not for the Buffy series, but most definitely for when he crossed over to Angel.

That's what I liked about his character development from S5-7. The set back of trying to rape Buffy made no sense to me, taking how far he had already come. Take his friendship with Dawn, he became like a brother to her when Buffy died and not only that, he took the beating of a lifetime from Glory all in the name of keeping Dawn safe.

Sure he slept with Anya, who wasn't with Xander at that time, and yeah he got himself his own personal sex slave in the Buffybot, but they are not evil acts, certainly not for a Vampire anyway. Those kind of occurences showed that Spike the Vampire was still alive. There was no need for the rape attempt, that suggested he never really changed and all the goodness that he had done was all in the name of his obsession for Buffy.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I never understood the Spike fanboy-ism although im glad he came back for Season 5 of Angel because he kinda filled in Cordelia's place.

I'm glad he went over to Angel on season 5 because it turned him back into the wise-ass that he used to be instead of Buffy's b****.

Yeah, Spike as an antagonistic ally to Angel is great. They make the most dysfunctional buddy cop duo ever.