Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[Hush]

Well I just finally got introduced to Adam and I think he is a cool concept but that this wil end flat. So glad that Walsh is dead. My lady is getting sick so we had to drastically cut the amount of episodes watched a night from 4 to 3. haha. Right now I feel we are just wacthing Season 4 to just watch it and get all the info first before diving into Season 5. She is a HUGE fan of Angel yet she has never seen his show kinda like I have seen Angel but never had seen Buffy, all the way through that is, so she was really bummed when Angel left. I do have to say though Riley isn't as obnoxious as I thought he was going to be at the start of the season.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Obviously plenty of Buffy fans on this forum, this is a rewatch I did a little while back, please follow, chip in or ignore as you see fit

Lets start off where it really started with Kristy Swanson and Luke Perry back in 1992.

The Good
Kristy is lovely, perhaps even more so than SMG, especially in her nightie. Love the scene where she rides the motorbike and some of the valleytalk. Principal Murray is also funny as is the 'What time is it?' gag. Love the idea that 'PMS is our secret weapon'
Paul Ruebens is good especially his death scene. And that's pretty much it

The Bad
Personally I think both Merrick and Lothos are way over the top. The Buffy/Pike relationship lacks credibility although it's interesting to think about Buffy/Oz? Angel is sorely missed. Kristy's lovely but nowhere near as good an actress as SMG. The finale is also not up to much. It's an OK film but it lacks verve

The Other
Quite a cast, double Oscar winner Hilary Swank, Ben Affleck, Ricky Lake etc. Reputedly Seth Green has a small role but I've never spotted him. You can certainly see the beginnings of the Buffy characters here;
Pike=Oz
Jennifer=Cordy
Kimberly=Harmony
Andy=Xander
Cassandra=Willow (although she dies!)
Murray=Flutie
No Ford from 'Lie to Me' though. The only characters to cross from the movie to the series are Buffy, Joyce, Hank and Merrick (in flashback in Becoming pt2). Joyce's 'What time?' line to Buffy is also repeated there but in a very different context. Joyce remarks to Buffy in 'Fear Itself' that she's not the social butterfly she used to be and also in WTTH that she's read parenting books.
I saw Luke Perry in 'When Harry Met Sally' with AH and he was very good (and certainly still a hit with the girls). A shame we never see Pike again in the series although he does return in the comics. I don't really think the romance between him and Buffy works, we sorely miss Angel/Spike. If you look at the video cover it has both him and Kristy, by the time it comes out on DVD it's just her.
Buffy later describes her pre-Slayer personality as Cordelia-like and she is. Ironically Merrick quotes Corinthians about putting away childish things but it's by clinging to her non-slayer life that Buffy is the most successful Slayer ever. She does recall the memories of past Slayers just as Dana does in Damaged so this is presumably something shared by all Slayers
Buffy says she aims to graduate, go to Europe, marry Christian Slater and die. By the end of Angel she's done 3 out of 4 (wouldn't it have been cool if they got the Immortal to be played by Christian Slater?)
Now of course if Normal Again is real then Buffy's delusion starts at the point she 'meets' Merrick and ends at the final scene of Chosen (the Buffy comics her dreams and/or perhaps she writes them for a living?). On the plus side although none of her Sunnydale characters exist it means that folks like Cassandra she based them on are still alive so she still has her Scooby-Gang and both parents when she gets out of the asylum. And she can always find a new Faith and Angel/Spike and name her daughter Dawn.
Lots of continuity changes. Vamps don't dust and can fly. Buffy doesn't miss the heart first time out as she later claims. It's much more overtly christian with the Slayer clearly god's instrument. Buffy has a built in vamp-detector which is alluded to in the series but not so strongly.
More cruelty to cats!
Good soundtrack from the Divinyls, they also did 'I touch myself' which Buffy recalls listening to in 'Lie to Me'

Questions;
Merrick says he is reincarnated but is that just him or all Watchers?
Do Faith and co all have the birthmark Buffy had removed?

I'll give it 7 out of 10 just for the sake of nostalgia

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Gellar seemed more like she was just playing an evil Buffy rather than another character all together.

Actually I thought SMG did a great job as Faith, when Joyce hugs her/Riley tells her he loves her, she obviously wants it depserately but at the same time it makes her uncomfortable. Her mocking Tara and self-loathing is great as is her final crossing back to the good side. Also love her performance in Faith's dream, her little tilt of the head when she's pursuing her, all she needs is a hockey mask

 

[Matt]

I love Wesley, and I agree, he is the most developed character of the Buffyverse.

Spoiler

I hated how he died in Season 5. It is my 2nd fave Angel season, but his death sucked. He got punked way too easy, and Wesley at this point in the show earned a stronger fight than he gave. I liked his last words and all, but the way he got beat by the demon was stupid.

Spoilers on season 6 ahead!

I may be in the minority, but I LOVED season six. I completely disagree on the concept being bad. I love the concept. After the GRAND adventure and awesomeness that was Season Five, and the end of ends, to show did a smart thing by going smaller and more human. You can't go straight from Glory to The First. They had to bridge, and I love the idea. Buffy's world of magic and rules, but the man who does the most damage to the group is simply a human...with a gun. THAT is awesome. Plus, how can you not love Buffy's arc? She was in paradise! Finally at peace, but her selfish friends brought her back cause THEY needed her. To fit THEIR needs. Not only that, but she has this mundane, boring existance to get back to. Not even her normal evil to take her mind of being expelled from total peace! This season was utterly depressing, but I loved it! It was dark, yet ended with such hope. When all the characters are at the darkest point of their lives, all of them are able to find the light in their own way, despite being utterly brutalized by life leading up to the finale!

It's an underrated season.

I'm not saying that the concept was terrible. I just don't think it was as good. I think taking it down a notch was good in theory, but bad in execution. A lot of the themes that you brought up were never really expanded upon. Plus, don't even get me started on the Spike/Buffy romance!

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't think it was bad, given the way they handled it. I think that one worked better than Riley and Buffy did. Riley was always...kind of off. He was too nice and not interesting enough for me to care about. I think Season 6 was overall better than Season 4, was. Season 4 was probably my least favorite season, despite it containing one of the 5 best episodes of the entire show.

 

[Kii]

I really enjoyed Season Six, yeah it was a total buzzkill, but that's what made it great! The scene where Buffy told Spike where she was, and for him to never tell anyone was so heartbreaking. Not to mention her song in Once More With Feeling.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

WTTH


The Good; Great opening scene, straight from every slasher flick ever but with a Joss twist. Brian Thompson is an excellent villain with a real sense of menace about him as anyone who saw him on the X-files can tell you. He plays a very similar role in the excellent Fright Night pt2. The Master is pretty OTT but like Darth Vaders first appearance in Star Wars you really get the sense this is the baddest guy in the universe and no mistake.

The bad; not much although it's early days yet. The one thing they could have improved upon is putting Eric Balfour in the opening titles, when you don't see him it's a big clue that Jesse isn't going to make it

Best lines; Instantly fell in love with Giles when he states that "You didn't hone". Also a good one from Xander when he recovers Buffy's stake "All I can think of is that you're building a really small fence"

Observations and questions; And here we have the REAL Willow although we'll never again see her so nerdy, from now on she dresses more like Cassandra from the movie. We also never see Buffy wear either her Jehovah Witness dress or her PVC number which is a shame on both counts. Nonetheless both Buffy and Cordy dress scandalously in these early eps, obviously going for the ratings. Darla is also lovely although she really does look too old to be a schoolgirl. But everyone looks SO young. SMG is a little more voluptuous and DB is a lot thinner and it suits both of them
We see Buffy's vamp sense again but it now seems more based on her fashion taste than cramps. Presumably Aura who has the dead guy in her locker is the same girl who calls Cordy in the Angel ep 'Rm w/a vu'? (Do the Cordettes stay constant or do they change over time?)
Cordy has a mobile phone! We won't see one of those again until season 1 of Angel and the Sunnydale Scoobies won't have them until season 7
Another point against Normal Again, Buffy doesn't want to be the Slayer and is trying to leave her past behind her. Presumably either the council or PTB arranged Joyce's job in Sunnydale? Buffy/Cordy fancy James Spader presumably for Pretty in Pink (although that's an 80s film when Cordy and Buffy would both have been toddlers). You wonder what they thought of him in S&M fest 'Secretary' although considering what both get up to in later seasons maybe that would be ok with them (or they'd like him MORE?). Still I guess Buffy is over her Christian Slater phase?
Who's John Tesch?
A strong opener that hints at great things to come but not overtly brilliant in itself, I'll give it 3/5

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I really enjoyed Season Six, yeah it was a total buzzkill, but that's what made it great! The scene where Buffy told Spike where she was, and for him to never tell anyone was so heartbreaking. Not to mention her song in Once More With Feeling.

If you're a Spuffer obviously season 6 is for you. Personally I find whilst it has some brilliant eps overall it's weaker than 2,3,5 and 7

 

[Kii]

If you're a Spuffer obviously season 6 is for you. Personally I find whilst it has some brilliant eps overall it's weaker than 2,3,5 and 7

I'm indifferent towards Spuffy. But saying Season Six is weaker than Seven is absolute lunacy, Seven wasted so much time dealing with the stupid Potentials not to mention everyone's distrust in Buffy's orders. The only time I felt any real tension was with Caleb and the first Turok Han vamp, but then the Ubervamps went by the wayside in the finale.

 

[Havok83]

I loved season 7 and found it more enjoyable than season 6

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I loved season 7 and found it more enjoyable than season 6

I'd agree with you. I liked the Potentials and I don't blame folks for doubting Buffy after all that had happened. The Turok Han seem less of a threat as time goes on but maybe the first was their champion?

Initially posted this as a seperate thread but the mods merged it so here goes;


The Harvest

The Good;
Never suspected they'd turn Jesse and was shocked when they killed him (Xander bags his first vamp, it'll take Willow and Cordelia 2 whole seasons to kill their first). The fight at the end is terrific especially Buffy's trick and 'give me the Speilberg (such a shame that there are no more commentaries on season 1, roll on Buffy Special Edition DVDs). Love Willow's trick on Cordy and we have Harmony for the first time (here unnamed). Willow hacks for the first time.
Great scenes with the hand trying to pull Buffy back into tunnels (Xander saves her for the first time?) whilst the sun going down has never seemed quite so menacing not to mention Darla skipping along to the Bronze.

The bad;
The vamps seem affected by the all too common slow moving monster syndrome. Also all the bodies disappear from the Bronze at the end whilst considering they're supposed to be lifelong friends Willow and Xander seem to forget about Jesse awfully quickly. Also considering we later establish what a formidable vamp Darla is Willow seems to overcome her awfully easily with just a jar of holy water

Best line;
Willow; I need to sit down
Buffy; You are sitting down
Willow; Oh, good

Questions and observations; the vamps look slightly different to what we later see, their skin more mottled and talons more pronounced. We later see in The Wish that whilst the Harvest would have been bad it wouldn't have been the end of the world. Is it Cordy who bumps into Jesse and forces him onto Xander's stake? I must say I'd never seen the supposed gay subtext between the Master and Luke until it was pointed out by Joss but now it seems impossible to miss

8/10 solid Buffy

 

[Sawyer]

I wish Caleb had been around longer. Of course, that would've been impossible since Firefly was going on during the beginning of the season, but he was such a great villain. I loved Fillion in that role.

 

[Kii]

Caleb was easily the best part of Season Seven, when Xander got his ass beat I was just staring at the TV with my jaw dropped.

 

[Sawyer]

"I have swimmer's ear."

Andrew's best line ever.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Caleb was easily the best part of Season Seven, when Xander got his ass beat I was just staring at the TV with my jaw dropped.

The interesting thing about Caleb was that he wasn't that far removed from Mal Reynolds who was also vaguely misogynist at times, he was like the dark side of Mal, his Angelus. Frankly I can never watch what he does to poor Xander

I remember reading a very clever fanfic where we discover Caleb's mother was a Slayer who got vamped and abused him as a vampire, that's why he's such a screwed up monster

The Witch

The good;
Amy for the first time, yay! And even now she's still appearing in season 8. I always thought if Will died she'd have been a good replacement. Buffy looks sensational in her cheerleading gear, a shame we'll never see her in it again (and we won't see the costume again until Dawn digs it out in season 7). Willow gets more hands on with the axe and we have our first case of Wicca although it's a very dark variety. The African fertility statue gag is the first sign of the saucy humour Buffy and Angel will become famous for. Lovely scenes between Buffy and Joyce both at breakfast and in closing. I gotta say, I didn't see the twist at all.

The bad;
What happens to the poor girl whose mouth sealed up? Presumably all the aspects of Amy's mum's magic stop once she is defeated.

Best lines;
Willow; That girl's on fire!
Cordy; Enough with the hyperbole

Giles; Why would anyone want to hurt Cordelia?
Willow; Maybe they met her?

My favourite though;
Xander; I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away

Observations and questions; Presumably Amy mom dies properly when the school blows up and passes to the afterlife. Willow is already beginning to dress less nerdy. We see Giles' car for the first time, the Citreon whilst a design classic seems a weird choice for him, a classic Jag maybe more his style. Xander's Buffy obsession continues to grow. No Angel, you sometimes forget he's not in all the eps of season 1. At exactly what point do Amy and her mum swap bodies? Cordy hasn't passed her driving test yet but that changes by the end of the season
3/5

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Teacher's Pet

The good;
Sex raises it's ugly head in the Buffyverse and it's all the better for it. A lovely little bit between Buffy and her teacher (who is also in The Witch) and although a minor character you feel the loss for both Buffy and Giles (we know Buffy is a bright girl when she applies herself and here it's made clear that she's not just some blonde airhead). Angel's back although compared to what Buffy faces later this vamp is small change, he seems to talk it up rather unnecessarily, maybe it's just an excuse to see Buffy again. Some lovely humour around Xander and his teenage lust, especially love his Bronze fantasy.

The bad;
Really the She-Mantis itself, when you compare it to some of the monsters from the later seasons it really does look awful. This ep is really a filler ep, very much 'monster of the week', it's fun but if Buffy had kept up this sort of ep it would never have become the great series it is

Best line; Xander (looking at Miss French's cleavage) "It's a beautiful chest...I mean dress"

Questions and observations; Giles shows interest in a woman for the first time, if he hadn't I must say I thought he might be gay? Flutie takes everyone to see the counsellor, is that the same one Buffy goes to see in 'Beauty and the Beast'? In 'Doomed' Willow says she's always the one to find the bodies but actually it seems more often to be Cordy. The Sunnydale Police are also hunting the claw handed vamp, the last time they do anything useful in the history of the series. Maybe that vamp was an enemy of the Mayor's? This story is an interesting reversal of fictional norms, how often do you see the heroine racing to save the boys from losing their virginity to the villain and not the other way around? What happens the eggs? Presumably Buffy and co deal?

3/5 I think but that may be a little generous

 

[Hush]

So I just saw the episode where Angel pretty much beats the **** out of Riley and it was awesome. Mainly because Angel is ten times the character that Riley is and he is cooler. That aside what a great episode. It pretty much redeemed season 4 for me. I have no hate for Lesbians but I cannot stand Tara, maybe im just too big an OZ fan, but I do like how they handled it in the show it's very tasteful.

Oh and Lorenzonvanmatte are you gonna review every episode with these long posts? If so I would just spoiler your review so we don't have to scroll past this HUGE posts?

 

[Havok83]

I hated Tara as well and it sucks but be prepared to see alot of her as she isnt going anywhere anytime soon. She's officially a Scooby member even if she isnt in the opening

 

[Doomed_hero]

she kinda grew on me as the show went even if i was not a fan of the gay angle since it came from nowhere and i loved oz

 

[Specter313]

I hated Tara as well and it sucks but be prepared to see alot of her as she isnt going anywhere anytime soon. She's officially a Scooby member even if she isnt in the opening

Well, there was that one time......

 

[Specter313]

Caleb was easily the best part of Season Seven, when Xander got his ass beat I was just staring at the TV with my jaw dropped.

Only real good thing about Firefly getting canceled was getting Nathan Fillion and Gina Torres to guest star on Buffy and Angel respectively.

 

[Sawyer]

And then Baldwin in Angel season 5.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

So I just saw the episode where Angel pretty much beats the **** out of Riley and it was awesome. Mainly because Angel is ten times the character that Riley is and he is cooler. That aside what a great episode. It pretty much redeemed season 4 for me. I have no hate for Lesbians but I cannot stand Tara, maybe im just too big an OZ fan, but I do like how they handled it in the show it's very tasteful.

Oh and Lorenzonvanmatte are you gonna review every episode with these long posts? If so I would just spoiler your review so we don't have to scroll past this HUGE posts?

Riley isn't as good as Angel but he had a hard act to follow. I don't think anyone ever thought Riley could take Angel, even with all his sci-fi gear. I LOVE Tara although I also loved Oz, don't worry, she'll grow on you and eventually have you crying your eyes out. As to when she officially becomes a Scoob i reckon it's about late season 4?, Anya joining a little earlier


SPOILERS FOR SEASON 1

Never Kill a Boy on a First Date;

The Good;
Great misdirection, you really never figure who the annointed is whilst Vorba is a truly frightening figure. Cordy and Buffy fighting over Owen is FANTASTIC! The fight at the funeral home is also excellent. And how often do you see 'Emily Dickenson' in a US teen show? (almost impresses Giles) The lovely scene between Buffy and Giles at the end. Buffy's green and white dress doesn't make her look fat but does make her look like a brazen hussy. The changing scene with Buffy, Willow and Xander is also funny

The bad;
So, when a vamp disolves why do it's clothes disintegrate and the ring etc doesn't? I always thought the idea was when a vamp dies the body returns to a natural state of decomposition but that doesn't seem the case as even newly made vamps dust.

Best line; (after Cordy knocks the cup over) "Boy, Cordelia's hips are wider than I thought!" OOOOOOOHHHH!
The classic; "Bite me!"
Cordy upon seeing Angel "Hello salty goodness!" (which are also her first words as an amnesiac in Spin the Bottle upon sighting Angel/Liam)

Observations and questions;
We never see Owen again although he appears in a lot of the establishing shots of Sunnydale High. I guess the show only has room for one brooding loner guy? Check out Willow's expression when she and Xander pretend to be a couple. Also Willow digs Owen which is more grounds to assume she's bisexual rather than just lesbian. Someone actually borrows a book from the library? Giles must have had to sit down with shock. Being a Watcher seems to run in famillies

Good ep, 3 and a half out of 5

 

[Harry_Lime02]

I'm indifferent towards Spuffy. But saying Season Six is weaker than Seven is absolute lunacy, Seven wasted so much time dealing with the stupid Potentials not to mention everyone's distrust in Buffy's orders. The only time I felt any real tension was with Caleb and the first Turok Han vamp, but then the Ubervamps went by the wayside in the finale.

I can barely distinguish half the episodes of season 7 from eachother. It just felt like they were stalling.

Spike and Buffy's "relationship" was a little gross, but I think it was supposed to be.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I can barely distinguish half the episodes of season 7 from eachother. It just felt like they were stalling.

Spike and Buffy's "relationship" was a little gross, but I think it was supposed to be.

Does dip a little in quality after Buffy kills the Turok-Han but once Faith and Caleb turn up it's up there with season 3. Do you mean Spuffy in season 6 or season 7?

Spoilers for season 1

THE PACK

The Good;
Love Buffy and Giles training, you get a genuine sense of menace when Willow is taken hostage for the first time. You' don't see the twist of the zookeeper, he seems so rational although I'm baffled as to what exact power he hoped to gain from the hyena spirits (then again I don't really understand why the Mayor wished to be this big snake?). Great acting from Nic Brendon showing the first of his range (in truth neither Nic nor David are that good actors in season 1 but they grow better)

The Bad;
The story is pretty stupid, reminds me of an obscure old series called 'Big Wolf on Campus'

Best Line;
Giles; Xander is becoming a teenage boy, you'll have to kill him of course

Questions and observations;
The first time someone is imprisoned in the library book cage but by no means the last. Xander trying to force himself on Buffy is unusually disturbing, for a feminist symbol she seems to get sexually assaulted a lot (but maybe that's the point?). It's interesting to compare this with Nic Brendon's unsettlingly convincing perfrormance as a rapist on Private Practice. Another Buffy cliche is a Scooby going evil (by the end of season 7 I think the only characters never to have gone bad were Tara and Giles?). Jennifer Sky plays one of the pack and she was very good as Amarice in Xena (so you can link Buffy to Xena in one if you're ever playing 'Six degrees of Bufferation'). No Cordy (there really isn't room for her) and no Angel. At this point of course he's not a fighter, he really is just cryptic warning guy but of course that really kicks in during the next ep
6/10