CAP America s movie costume

[November Rain]

November Rain I don't think you get that Cap doesn't NEED the gun which is why he doesn't USE it. If there's a situation where he has no choice or there is no other way to take someone out then sure. But so far he has not come across a situation that he could not get out of with his fists and trusty sheild. The sheild is great both for close, short, and long range. The best part is he can take out armies with no fatalities. I think you need to read the comics to get that.

I've seen that video before and it is pretty kickass but imagine him accomplishing all of that damage WITHOUT the guns. Even more impressive.

Need is not what we are talking about.

need is somewhat of a choice. He should be issued with a gun and whether or not he uses it is technically up to him.

ULtimately, in the comics all sorts of situations can and do happen because that's just the way things are. In reality, things are much different.

IF he is peak human, not giving him a gun in a war time event is just silly, the very first time we see a superpowered cap in the ultimates, even he has a automatic rifle in one hand and a shield in another. NOw having a gun doesn't mean he necessarily needs to kill people, he could either wound them or lay down covering fire for other people, use it to hit targets and distract people etc. It really doesn't take anything away from the character because ultimately its being used to close down the distance between himself and the enemy, the same way a normal or gas grenade would be used.

the thing is the female spartan ultimately does use lots of guns and maybe cap shouldn't use as many weapons as she did but he shouldn't be afraid to use weaponary because ultimately his goal is to complete an objective. Saying a scene would be even more impressive without offensive weaponary really does take away from an action director. A scene can be as good or as bad as it needs to be. I've read a large majority of the fights that ultimate cap has been in when he's used other weapons other than his shield, in no case did i say

'that would have been better if he only had his shield'

the truth of the matter is that their appearance made no impact on how i felt either about the scene or the character being badass...

This is kinda like saying hawkeye wasn't badass when he took out a room full of agents by flicking his nails, or using cutlery or even machine guns because he didn't use his bows and therefore it takes away from the character.

I know you say i'm continually using ultimate examples but these are comic examples of things that are more inclined to work on a big screen (purposely written to fit into today's environment) and comical examples of things that have been done before but people have not made a point of it.

 

[November Rain]

Besides Batman got through his movies without using a gun, Daredevil got through his movie without using a gun, I think Cap can get through his without using a gun. If you mean during the war then I can understand but at the same time...he CAN get through it WITHOUT using a gun so why should he unless he WANTS cause death or inflict even more pain than necessary on his adversaries?

I've already stated that batman firstly is totally against guns and uses other methods such as ninjitsu and darkness to aid his quest.

daredevil, techincally can't see so he can't use guns, nor has he ever trained with weapons. Instead he uses close quarters combat situations and has an offensive weapon that is incredibly versatile to deal with multiple adversaries.

batman and daredevil are both close quarter fighters. they weren't trained or designed to invade beaches on normandy, they'd both die fairly easily if that was the case.

cap is a 'trained' private soldier that volunteered for a programme, he had military experience before hand and ultimately would be trained to advance these tendencies to make him the ultimate soldier.

at the base of it all, he's a super soldier and no matter what type of soldier you are, if you are going into battle on a frontline, you expect to carry a gun of some sort. There is no logic behind why he wouldn't. All your reasoning is just kinda a fantasy look at a character. It's not realistic

 

[November Rain]

Ultimate Cap shot people. Ultimate Cap is exactly the type of character that November Rain is talking about. It doesn't matter how the enemy is taken down, as long as they go down. In fact all members of The Ultimates are/were that way (they all recently moved past that and now they've become more like the regular Avengers). Ultimate Captain America figured he couldn't beat Wolverine a fair fight so he mowed him down with an uzi.

No-thanks.

I love the character of Ultimate Captain America but he is not a good guy by any means. At least he wasn't anyway.

in ULtimate war, the reason he took down wolverine that way was because he had more pressing matters to attend to. He confused him with conversations then mowed him down...

in ultimate extinction, he was also busy trying to find out what the ultimate vision was so he chucked a grenade at wolverine to take him quickly out.

Being sent out on a mission and trying to do it as quickly as possible doesn't make one good or bad, it makes them a good soldier. Remember this was the same wolverine that took out some helicopters and killed some soldiers right infront of some teenagers and also took ironman right out of the sky, he needed to be neutralised quickly and that's what cap did.

Even though he never killed wolverine, It's not like ultimate cap hasn't killed anyone. THat's because that's what soldiers do.

If you don't want a realistic take on a soldier than maybe having him made for the second world war is not the best thing to be doing.

 

[chiefchirpa]

cap is a 'trained' private soldier that volunteered for a programme, he had military experience before hand and ultimately would be trained to advance these tendencies to make him the ultimate soldier.

at the base of it all, he's a super soldier and no matter what type of soldier you are, if you are going into battle on a frontline, you expect to carry a gun of some sort. There is no logic behind why he wouldn't. All your reasoning is just kinda a fantasy look at a character. It's not realistic

Yes, no ranged weapons and expecting that small shield to cover all over your body are silly.

 

[ANTOINE X]

I don t know what to say .With the ultimates series and the new generation of artist are redesigning superheroes with more realistic outfit some of them are really nice, but by doing so the fantasy side is some how gone! I see the new cap looking like a S.W.A.T ,Batman is a real thank and I even saw a design of superman with army boots! Also the x-men with pants and sweater I understand thats some old costume needs work but also I don't wont to see superheroes looking like us. I Still want to dream like I was a little kid damn it! t:

 

[Savage]

I understand the realistic reasoning behind Cap using a gun but it has always been a personal choice for him not to use it. Why do you think Ultimate Cap gets so much crap from fans? (not me. I love the Ultimate universe) Captain America usually does what he can to avoid fatalities altogether. He knocked a terrorist of a train and then immediately grabbed his arm to save him. Accidents do happen, yes, but Cap personally does not WANT any casualties.

I wish I had a scanner. There's a scene in Civil War where The Punisher shoots two supervillains execution style right in front of Cap and he loses it and beats the crap out of him calling him a "murderous piece of trash" in the process. Then the following exchange occurs.

Cap "Get him out of here! And throw his guns in the incinerator! I must have been out of my mind to give that animal a shot on this team!"

Misty Knight "Well, he lasted about ten minutes more than I expected."

Patriot "I wonder why he wouldn't hit Cap."

Spidey "Are you kidding me? Cap's probably the reason he went to Vietnam. Same guy, different war."

Cap "Wrong. Frank Castle is Insane."

I think that explains his stance on death pretty well.

 

[November Rain]

i think that explains his stance pretty much on cold blooded murder...

it's not the weapon that makes castle kinda twisted, it's his motivations.

a gun in the hands of cap is not the same as gun in the hands of castle...

and ultimately in the ultimate universe cap has rarely used weapons, he simply isn't against them. I don't think that has much to do with his actual persona

the weapon should never define the character.

 

[Savage]

What is the difference between the way these two would use a gun? They are both using it to take out opposing forces. Enemies. Villains. Supervillains. At least I hope soldiers are using their guns to take out the opposing force. If you mean Cap would just use it for cover fire or shooting out kneecaps then that's even more reason that he should just use the sheild and leave that other hand free.

I guess you just have to see him fight to really understand it. I'm pretty sure regular Cap can beat Ultimate Cap hand to hand, and Ultimate Cap's a damn good fighter. You'll just have to read one of Brubaker's trade paperbacks to see the man in action.

 

[November Rain]

you said that punisher was taking out villains executional style. perhaps he wasn't utilising reasonable force which is what cap usually does. He only killed people when he had to in the ultimate line.

No one should take comfort from killing someone and push that boundary too far. Again, there is a difference between taking out an enemy troop in a wartime situation and then executing an unarmed or vulnerable person for no good reason.

back when he was made, regardless of whether he had superpowers or not, putting him into a war situation (especially special ops missions) without offensive weaponary is just wreckless. He should at least have grenades of shrapnel and also gas, a machine gun and some spare clips. I don't even mind a scenario of he has a gun but someone loses there so caps hands his over BUT to put him out in that situation without th eneed for offensive gear is totally unacceptable.

 

[Savage]

Well I guess I can understand that. As long as it is explained why he doesn't use it or that it's mandatory that he have the weapon as a backup or something. They can be used as tools anyway and not necessarily have to be used to harm people.

 

[November Rain]

I mentioned how it could be used as cover fire or something along those lines but even still, i don't see why he couldn't use it to kill people. He does come from a less tolerant generation where violence towards a threat has no....boundaries if acts are done in an honourable manner.

Just like in the ultimates, where he has taken off gear in order to give people the chance to have unarmed combat man-to-man.

Just like he doesn't always fight with his shield, he doesn't always need to have a gun around either but to have one removed completely would be a lil...bizzare

 

[Savage]

Yeah, but the difference between regular Cap and Ultimate Cap is that...well...the man still refuses to use guns, no matter what situation. And he gets out of them just fine. Spectacularly even. I understand where you're coming from, really, but I picture him with two weapons in his hand and thinking "Well I can just uppercut him and knock him out cold...or riddle him with bullets and leave him for dead...Decisions, decisions." I see it being used to get through areas he can't kick through or something but not on people. Hell, I can even see him just wearing it for show and never using it...I'd be happy with that actually. Give it to Bucky. He needs it more.

 

[November Rain]

the thing is that in war, you don't have time to think, you're constantly reacting to the situation around you.

when i hear your non weapon based proposal, this is what i'm thinking of



but even in this, he's packed himself with grenades and what not which makes me question why not give him a gun as well. He was obviously unaware before the mission what type of inventory he would need to stop the bomb so how would he also know not to have a gun.

 

[Steve Rogers]

Giving Cap a gun to use makes no sense. It's like giving Superman a green feather to tickle his opponents to death with. Doesn't work, because the character never does it. Now, if the movie is Ultimate Captain America, sure give him a gun. But we all know it won't be Ultimate Cap. Bucky carries the guns, Cap carries the shield. It's been that way since 1941. I see no need to change that now.

 

[November Rain]

maybe because it's an unrealistic impression of what occurs during a war time scenario

We are no longer in the age of idealism about war, it's been better detailed in films due to entries like saving private ryan. No man could or should be sent out into that environment unarmed. Especially a soldier (and a super one at that).

If they are trying to sell this film, those opening scenes are some of the most important, if they are pitching it to the correct age group, i expect they would arm him otherwise i'll expect some idealist cap along the lines of the fantastic four films.

 

[Brian Braddock]

NR, as I've stated before I agree with your reasoning completely, and that last post was the clincher.

Furthermore, I applaud your avvy (although I was more of a Centurions/Bionic Six fan myself - why were 80's cartoons just so much cooler?)

 

[Steve Rogers]

maybe because it's an unrealistic impression of what occurs during a war time scenario

We are no longer in the age of idealism about war, it's been better detailed in films due to entries like saving private ryan. No man could or should be sent out into that environment unarmed. Especially a soldier (and a super one at that).

If they are trying to sell this film, those opening scenes are some of the most important, if they are pitching it to the correct age group, i expect they would arm him otherwise i'll expect some idealist cap along the lines of the fantastic four films.

First. It's. A. Comic. Book. Unrealistic? Not any more unrealistic than a movie about a kid who crawls on walls and shoots pider webs. No more unrealistic than a movie about a man who gets doused with radiation and becomes a monster. No more unrealistic than a movie about a blind man with a built in radar. No more unrealistic than a movie about four turtles slimed in some radioactive goop and grow up to walk and talk. If done right, anything can be believable in a movie universe. That's what's so wonderful about fiction of any kind; you can make anything possible. I mean, if we wanted to see realism, we wouldn't be watching fiction films. We'd be looking out the window.

Besides, Cap is armed. His shield is his weapon. It is his rifle. Cap + Shield = Weapon of Mass Destruction.

 

[November Rain]

let's not degrade the media by using the 'it's a comic book' to justify poorly written scenarios....

we're talking about a company/business who will be spending a large amount of money in order to portray a fantasy comic based in as real a setting as possible.

the anomalies of fantasy should be in the abilities/origin, similar to how a super soldier created today would definitely be equipped with weaponary. If a lowly student like myself can agree with such logic then surely a government invensting billions into the same field would also do so, to protect their investment.

And i've already stated that there would be times where his shield would be out of reach (i pray it doesn't have any boomerang qualities). and then he'd be utterly offenseless or defenseless.

Could you imagine cap storming the beaches of private ryan without a gun? I simply couldn't but that's not saying he should use it all the time, in the whole film he could have it for like 2 minutes but that's enough to show he is up to date with using all forms of combat, weaponary, vehicles and strategy to defeat his enemies. For me, that is the true defnition of a super soldier.

 

[Savage]

Someone brought up a good point earlier though. That that is just how the team of Bucky and Cap work. Bucky has the guns, Cap has the sheild. As long as he can protect himself from gunfire long enough to get close enough to smack people around, he's fine. It makes him even scarier actually that he can't be stopped and (literally) mows people down. He just runs them over like a bull. Not to forget that he can actually SEE faster than everybody else (not kidding. straight from Brubaker's pen to comic book ink. guess he was refering to his reflexes) which helps him dodge bullets and Cap really can get through just about anything (and does). He needs to use some kind of offensive weapon during the war, he has Bucky for that. Otherwise the man is a walking offensive weapon. Run through, bullets bounce off, everything goes down and he goes V for Vendetta on Nazi asses.

 

[Steve Rogers]

let's not degrade the media by using the 'it's a comic book' to justify poorly written scenarios....

we're talking about a company/business who will be spending a large amount of money in order to portray a fantasy comic based in as real a setting as possible.

the anomalies of fantasy should be in the abilities/origin, similar to how a super soldier created today would definitely be equipped with weaponary. If a lowly student like myself can agree with such logic then surely a government invensting billions into the same field would also do so, to protect their investment.

And i've already stated that there would be times where his shield would be out of reach (i pray it doesn't have any boomerang qualities). and then he'd be utterly offenseless or defenseless.

Could you imagine cap storming the beaches of private ryan without a gun? I simply couldn't but that's not saying he should use it all the time, in the whole film he could have it for like 2 minutes but that's enough to show he is up to date with using all forms of combat, weaponary, vehicles and strategy to defeat his enemies. For me, that is the true defnition of a super soldier.

There's a fine line between making something realistic and changing the ideals of a character that has already exsisted for over sisty years. You seem to think Cap is unarmed and I'm sorry, that just isn't true. His shield is his weapon. Officers and NCO's got Thompsons, machine gunners got .30 calibers, automatic riflemen got BAR's and Captain America got a shield and Bucky. Those are his weapons. And there are plenty of soldiers who stormed ashore at the various beaches at Normandy (Juno, Sword, Gold, Omaha, and Utah, not the beaches of saving private ryan) who weren't carrying rifles. Doctors, medics, chaplins, engineers, Naval personal and staff officers stormed ashore without rifles (some staff officers carried a .45 though)

And Cap can use all forms of weaponry and vehicles and whatnot to defeat his enemy. I'm not saying he has no cluse how to fire a rifle, but he chooses not to do so. Cap is like an officer. He's the leader. He smashes through the defenses with his shield and cries follow me to the men with the rifles to do the damage. Besides, he wasn't supposed to carry a rifle. The US government did NOT want him to. They felt that the symbol of America should not be a killer.

But I cannot stress this part enough: Cap's shield is his weapon. Period. He is armed.

 

[Savage]

*claps* Bravo. Jolly good show, young chap..

 

[Steve Rogers]

I have my moments.

 

[Mr Jide]

Both Rogers and NR make valid points. However, CA using a gun as a means of attack on enemy soldiers takes away the novelty of the shield. I think many people trivialise or underestimate the significance of the shield. Also, a CA movie is right up there as an ideal definitive comic book movie. Lets forget the fact that Cap wears a costume to differentiate himself from the rest of his comrades but while his comrades are equipped with rifles and other bullet-spitting armaments, the shield is all the more emphasised as a devastating weapon in the hands of a super soldier. Remember, we dont need nor want to see cap doing ordinary things. Yes, the elemet of war plays a big part but does cap need to be the one carrying a gun whilst everyone else around him does? Doesn't seem like anything special if he does.
Besides, a good cap movie would show this without the audiences blatantly coming to the realization that Cap's gone to war without firing a single shot from a gun.

 

[tamron]

And i've already stated that there would be times where his shield would be out of reach (i pray it doesn't have any boomerang qualities). and then he'd be utterly offenseless or defenseless.

Why wouldn't you want the shield to rebound? That property is a big part of what makes Cap's shield unique, and his proficiency with it shows just how honed his skills are.

Anybody can bullrush someone with a shield, but only Captain America can throw a shield, make it rebound off of surfaces, and take out multiple enemies.

 

[Savage]

I didn't even see that post. Wow. November Rain, pick up the Captain America Brubaker Omnibus (September 19). You need to be blessed with the awesomeness that is Cap.