Um ok, but I won't get into tic for tac on proving my blackness.
I was under the impression that African American culture is well American culture unless you feel somehow that blacks aren't American enough. While we have skin tone in common with Black Africans our Culture is American. Racism and other social ills aside black Americans have more in common culturally with white Americans then Black Africans.
While some of those films were decent a director like Spike Lee would just be to heavy handed with racial overtones. The man is talented and could have gone further in Hollywood had he done and strived for more mainstream films. I respect him and his opinions but he is to bitter racially and feel he has to shove his message in America's face. I've seen the man in interviews and have read to many of his opinions for this not to be the case. He can do his films that touch on racial and social ills but I think the man has forgotten that films are entertainment and not a vehicle to always deliver a message. I've seen enough of those type of movies. I don't want to see subtle messages in a BP film from Lee. I could accept him doing it but Marvel would have to reign him in and remind him that it's a comic book film meant for fun and entertainment and eye candy.
Do not mention that hack john singleton. He made one good film and is probably the last director I would want on a BP film. With him trying to cast Tyrese as BP. No thank you. Tyler Perry is garbage and while I respect what he's done and how he made his fortune and started his own studio the man is a mediocre director and his writing just isn't for me. None of the movies he's done has shown me that he can write and direct a credible BP film. Fuqua would be fine as long as he has a good script but I had forgotten about him honestly. He's done some good films. My fear is a black director Americanizing Tchalla and Wakanda to much. As someone pointed out Cheadle may not be bad. I think he gets it.
What does Will Smith and Jackson has to do with my comments? When did I ever come down on the talent of black actors??!!!! What ever.
My goal was not to question your blackness, just to point out that your feeling that a black director will somehow mess it up, or that black directors and writers have not been impressive in terms of action, fantasy and sci fi is in conflict with reality. You dislike individual directors, that makes sense, who doesn't? But when you say that black filmmakers in general, not just Spike Lee, will 'easily mess things up' I look at the history of black writers and directors and I'm a bit like WTF. I'm glad to see that you realize there's some important details you've forgotten, notably, that not all black directors and writers are the three individuals you dislike. Consider that there are also things you never knew in the first place.
Your fear is understandable. I don't share it personally. T'Challa is a world traveled hero primarily marketed to Ameican audiences. He will be Americanized. How much is too much? Is he still from Africa? Are those still his primary values? If so, I don't see a problem, personally. Will Smith, Zel and SLJ, as I said, are people who have dealt with black filmmakers relatively often. Smith even produced all his recent stuff.
yes but the media will say "DC did it first" if they announce the Rock as Shazam and that's released in 2016. It will lead to them continuing to badger Feige about it until he actually announces it.
Dear God please tell me you're just trying inform us of Black directors in Hollywood? Some of the names you've mentioned just sends chills down my spine. I wouldn't want several of them to even mop up on set of a BP film let alone directing it. Singleton, Perry? If you've seen their work then you should neither of them can direct a BP movie. Singleton is a hack and Perry and his shuck and jive man hating movies are awful. I've not seen any film by Perry that I can say is a good movie.
I'm just going with what I know from the mainstream. Don't need to be angry...good lord. I'm just going with what I know from what I read on the media. No need to be snippy.
As a person of color myself (Asian American) I actually wouldn't mind seeing Justin Lin, James Wan or Cary Fukunaga do a comic-book movie. Marvel or DC, it doesn't matter. I'd actually be interested in their takes on Black Panther, although I'm not certain if Fukunaga can do action (having not seen True Detective, I don't know). Lin does action scenes very well and we'll see with Wan when Fast and Furious 7 comes out next year. Hell I would have loved to have seen Wan's take on Dr. Strange. Like Scott Derrickson, Wan's background is mostly horror flicks so it would have been interesting. Not sure about Jon Chu though.
I'm just going with what I know from the mainstream. Don't need to be angry...good lord. I'm just going with what I know from what I read on the media. No need to be snippy.
As a person of color myself (Asian American) I actually wouldn't mind seeing Justin Lin, James Wan or Cary Fukunaga do a comic-book movie. Marvel or DC, it doesn't matter. I'd actually be interested in their takes on Black Panther, although I'm not certain if Fukunaga can do action (having not seen True Detective, I don't know). Lin does action scenes very well and we'll see with Wan when Fast and Furious 7 comes out next year. Hell I would have loved to have seen Wan's take on Dr. Strange. Like Scott Derrickson, Wan's background is mostly horror flicks so it would have been interesting. Not sure about Jon Chu though.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as snippy. At any rate I'm familiar with Lin and He would be good for a Strange movie. I'm sure he could pull off a BP film. As someone else mentioned I think it's important to have a director that gets it first and foremost.
I'm not sure about Wan but I've enjoyed some of his films. The Conjuring was good and I liked Death Sentence. Insidious was decent but 2 was mediocre. He seems to have skills and he's directing Fast 7. I'm not a 100% sold on him but then I wouldn't have expected James Gunn to do a good job on GOTG. Wan could also probably pull off a Strange movie.
I've not seen anything by Fukunaga, so I'd say no and what I've read of his credits doesn't inspire confidence but as I've said based on Gunn's past projects I wouldn't have expected him to make a good GOTG movie, which honestly I thought was gonna flop.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as snippy. At any rate I'm familiar with Lin and He would be good for a Strange movie. I'm sure he could pull off a BP film. As someone else mentioned I think it's important to have a director that gets it first and foremost.
I'm not sure about Wan but I've enjoyed some of his films. The Conjuring was good and I liked Death Sentence. Insidious was decent but 2 was mediocre. He seems to have skills and he's directing Fast 7. I'm not a 100% sold on him but then I wouldn't have expected James Gunn to do a good job on GOTG. Wan could also probably pull off a Strange movie.
I've not seen anything by Fukunaga, so I'd say no and what I've read of his credits doesn't inspire confidence but as I've said based on Gunn's past projects I wouldn't have expected him to make a good GOTG movie, which honestly I thought was gonna flop.
Justin Lin is the best action director of today. Write a good script, give him a good cast, and then throw him the keys, and you're guaranteed a top-notch action movie.
Fukunaga is incredible, and can direct whatever he wants as far as I am concerned. I am of the opinion that he hasn't really had his "breakout" film yet, but when all is said and done, he will be regarded as one of the truly great directors.
James Wan does not inspire enthusiasm to me. He is 1-for-6 on movies that are even watchable to me.
I don't think we need a white surrogate, but I do think we need comic relief, and a dorky white dude is probably the easiest way to do it in a Black Panther movie, especially since Marvel probably thinks we DO need a white surrogate. Hawkeye is too calm and collected, I think, to be great comic relief. I am basically thinking someone like Brewis from Attack the Block. It doesn't have to be a huge role.
Assuming he can pull off an accent and still stay funny, I think Hannibal Burress could provide some great dry comic relief as a Wakandan character.
Hawkeye can do sassy, though, which might actually be a better match for Black Panther. I do think, being a MCU film, that you need a bit of comedy to lighten the tone, but on the other hand if you put anyone to slapstick next to T'Challa I think the effect would be too cartoonish. The hero's personality and story should dictate the humor used. That's why GotG's wackiness works perfectly well because Star Lord is living his life based on what he remembers about 80s movies as a kid. Tony Stark can get away with the more snarky and humorous tone of IM3 because he is a guy that often uses levity to emotionally distance himself from and deal with situations. While I didn't mind the humor in Thor:TDW to the extant many people did, there were a couple of moments were the jokes clashed against the tone of the piece because they didn't seem to match the way Thor carries himself or the story's overall tone. So it's a careful balancing act.
I think you could aim for CA:TWS because Cap spends most of that movie as a serious leader type with the world on his shoulders, but he's not without wit. Plus you have Black Widow playing the snarky partner. I think Barton's humor should be a little less subtle than Natasha's. I kind of like the Clint who can deadpan a line and then gets this smug smile on his face and looks back to his partner to make sure someone's appreciated his wit. Clint can play the cool, well trained agent with the SHIELD issued deadpan snarkiness while also being a bit of a show off; he doesn't quip because it's his natural response to high stress situations or even because he's just a born deadpan snarker. He does it because on some level he wants people to hear him being witty. That's a show off style attribute that could still work for the character.
On the other hand, T'Challa's humor should come from his natural fast wit and powers of observation. If you know anyone who is freakishly smart and tends to be incredible perspective (my brother is like this) you know that a lot of times they are wickedly funny, and it all comes from being able to quickly recognize what a situation is, and pointing out the inherent humor in a way that comes off very natural. It tends to be funny because they're precisely right and you just hadn't had the time to notice it yet, do you know what I mean?
The only problem is I think this humor tends to work better once T'Challa is outside Wakanda and as a member of the Avengers. It's kind of a Fish-Out-Of-Water scenario, only in this case the fish is pointing out how strange it is that both our species require water and air to survive but while he simply lives in oxidized air, we've put hundred of miles between us and the cost line and simply hope it fall from the sky or build all sorts of pipes to bring it to us. A lot of humor can come from an outsider recognizing the inherent oddness and then deconstructing our customs and cultural mores. These sorts of observations show of a character's intelligence and observational skills while also being funny, so that type of humor might be a good fit for T'Challa.
I just wanted to give a sort of story explain of how Hawkeye and T'Challa could end up working together, bringing both sense of hurmur to the table. Hawkeye's brashness and show off attitude can conflict with a much more patient Black Panther. This is by no means a plot suggestions from the actual film, more of a rough draft meant to team up the two.
So let's say you have a story that goes something like this (it doesn't have to, of course, I'm only using it as an example). T'Chakka has closed Wakanada off due to recent events (see The Avengers, AoU, Thor:TDW, CA:TWS) and called T'Challa home from his studies. But even safe from the troubles outside their borders, the kingdom is not all calm. Maybe some of the tribes who have a history of rebelling see T'Challa's home coming as nothing more than an excuse to start rumblings. They say they don't like that the boy brings with him so many outside idea, his father defends him saying that he ruling class has gone on theses walkabouts for generations, that they return better prepared to rule. Soon after, on the outskirts of Wakanda there are attacks from what appear to be some kind of super or alien beings. The clan accusing T'Challa of allowing them in somehow this all comes down to an ancient traditional where the Black Panther must battle his accusers. T'Chakka is defeated, but from his position of the arena, T'Challa could tell that something wasn't right. The Usurper cheated, but he's not sure how.
This leads to T'Challa's supposed exile, only he knows this part of Wakanda far better than the Usurpers and is able, either on his own or with help from those who remain loyal, accuser some from of the Panther suit and sets out to complete the tasks. Either during or after this at some point we find that Hawkeye has somehow appeared in Wakanda. It turns out that back during his walkabout, T'Challa had been under SHIELD observation and eventually, after he took out a few of their agents a somewhat cocky but impressed Hawkeye called them off. He explained they just wanted to avoid any international incident but it seemed the prince of Wakanda was able to look out for himself, all the same they left him something, a quick way to get in contact. Obviously with suspicious so raised in Wakanda he would be a fool to bring in SHIELD and yet while he watched the challenger beat his father he couldn't help thinking this was all familiar to him in someway.
T'Challa believed that signal device would connect him with some sort of scientific group now that SHIELD was defunct, what he hadn't predicted is that Hawkeye - already searching something down in the regain, would have the receiver on him and without thinking pop up. Now you have the tension of the two of them working together, neither of them suppose to be but T'Challa refusing to leave until he knows what happened to his father and when they go to suppose attack sights they find equipment/machines that are not wakandan in origin but appear to have been used BY rather than AGAINST the clan and Hawkeye is pretty sure he knows their true origin, which he does not immediately feel the need to share.
I think adding Hawkeye does more than just gives you a funnyman, though, with his position being a more typically fish out of water tale. I think it connects Black Panther very immediately back to the Avengers in a way that, written properly, wouldn't feel forced or overshadow Black Panther. I do wonder if, since he is a lesser well known property in the GA eyes and because he is he first true global Avenger that some people might not feel as immediately drawn in the way the were for others. Let's face it even in the comics Black Panther holds a rather unique position since, a the ruller of an African Nation and a member of a team sworn to protect the world. Adding in Hawkeye shows that, yes, this character is an Avenger even if he's not in America. Which may be stupid obvious to all of us, but isn't this the sort of things studios worry about?
Plus, Hawkeye (while awesome) isn't going to outshine Black Panther. He'll not only have his suit and herbs, but also a home filled and scientific knowledge advantage. He's definitely set to be the leader in this mission. At the same time, Hawkeye offers some tonally appropriate humor, his even being there creates conflict, and on a shallow note he makes for an American surrogate, which I think the studios will want to see. It has potential.
Justin Lin is the best action director of today. Write a good script, give him a good cast, and then throw him the keys, and you're guaranteed a top-notch action movie.
Fukunaga is incredible, and can direct whatever he wants as far as I am concerned. I am of the opinion that he hasn't really had his "breakout" film yet, but when all is said and done, he will be regarded as one of the truly great directors.
James Wan does not inspire enthusiasm to me. He is 1-for-6 on movies that are even watchable to me.
We were trying to think of a good comic relief character and Ross seemed the most logical choice. I'm actually not sure if I like Ross that much but he does seem to be the only "funny" character in the black panther mythology.
Hawkeye is ok but probably not that great for comedy. If we're going for an avenger in this film it should be captain America anyway
Hawkeye can do sassy, though, which might actually be a better match for Black Panther. I do think, being a MCU film, that you need a bit of comedy to lighten the tone, but on the other hand if you put anyone to slapstick next to T'Challa I think the effect would be too cartoonish. The hero's personality and story should dictate the humor used. That's why GotG's wackiness works perfectly well because Star Lord is living his life based on what he remembers about 80s movies as a kid. Tony Stark can get away with the more snarky and humorous tone of IM3 because he is a guy that often uses levity to emotionally distance himself from and deal with situations. While I didn't mind the humor in Thor:TDW to the extant many people did, there were a couple of moments were the jokes clashed against the tone of the piece because they didn't seem to match the way Thor carries himself or the story's overall tone. So it's a careful balancing act.
I think you could aim for CA:TWS because Cap spends most of that movie as a serious leader type with the world on his shoulders, but he's not without wit. Plus you have Black Widow playing the snarky partner. I think Barton's humor should be a little less subtle than Natasha's. I kind of like the Clint who can deadpan a line and then gets this smug smile on his face and looks back to his partner to make sure someone's appreciated his wit. Clint can play the cool, well trained agent with the SHIELD issued deadpan snarkiness while also being a bit of a show off; he doesn't quip because it's his natural response to high stress situations or even because he's just a born deadpan snarker. He does it because on some level he wants people to hear him being witty. That's a show off style attribute that could still work for the character.
On the other hand, T'Challa's humor should come from his natural fast wit and powers of observation. If you know anyone who is freakishly smart and tends to be incredible perspective (my brother is like this) you know that a lot of times they are wickedly funny, and it all comes from being able to quickly recognize what a situation is, and pointing out the inherent humor in a way that comes off very natural. It tends to be funny because they're precisely right and you just hadn't had the time to notice it yet, do you know what I mean?
The only problem is I think this humor tends to work better once T'Challa is outside Wakanda and as a member of the Avengers. It's kind of a Fish-Out-Of-Water scenario, only in this case the fish is pointing out how strange it is that both our species require water and air to survive but while he simply lives in oxidized air, we've put hundred of miles between us and the cost line and simply hope it fall from the sky or build all sorts of pipes to bring it to us. A lot of humor can come from an outsider recognizing the inherent oddness and then deconstructing our customs and cultural mores. These sorts of observations show of a character's intelligence and observational skills while also being funny, so that type of humor might be a good fit for T'Challa.
I just wanted to give a sort of story explain of how Hawkeye and T'Challa could end up working together, bringing both sense of hurmur to the table. Hawkeye's brashness and show off attitude can conflict with a much more patient Black Panther. This is by no means a plot suggestions from the actual film, more of a rough draft meant to team up the two.
So let's say you have a story that goes something like this (it doesn't have to, of course, I'm only using it as an example). T'Chakka has closed Wakanada off due to recent events (see The Avengers, AoU, Thor:TDW, CA:TWS) and called T'Challa home from his studies. But even safe from the troubles outside their borders, the kingdom is not all calm. Maybe some of the tribes who have a history of rebelling see T'Challa's home coming as nothing more than an excuse to start rumblings. They say they don't like that the boy brings with him so many outside idea, his father defends him saying that he ruling class has gone on theses walkabouts for generations, that they return better prepared to rule. Soon after, on the outskirts of Wakanda there are attacks from what appear to be some kind of super or alien beings. The clan accusing T'Challa of allowing them in somehow this all comes down to an ancient traditional where the Black Panther must battle his accusers. T'Chakka is defeated, but from his position of the arena, T'Challa could tell that something wasn't right. The Usurper cheated, but he's not sure how.
This leads to T'Challa's supposed exile, only he knows this part of Wakanda far better than the Usurpers and is able, either on his own or with help from those who remain loyal, accuser some from of the Panther suit and sets out to complete the tasks. Either during or after this at some point we find that Hawkeye has somehow appeared in Wakanda. It turns out that back during his walkabout, T'Challa had been under SHIELD observation and eventually, after he took out a few of their agents a somewhat cocky but impressed Hawkeye called them off. He explained they just wanted to avoid any international incident but it seemed the prince of Wakanda was able to look out for himself, all the same they left him something, a quick way to get in contact. Obviously with suspicious so raised in Wakanda he would be a fool to bring in SHIELD and yet while he watched the challenger beat his father he couldn't help thinking this was all familiar to him in someway.
T'Challa believed that signal device would connect him with some sort of scientific group now that SHIELD was defunct, what he hadn't predicted is that Hawkeye - already searching something down in the regain, would have the receiver on him and without thinking pop up. Now you have the tension of the two of them working together, neither of them suppose to be but T'Challa refusing to leave until he knows what happened to his father and when they go to suppose attack sights they find equipment/machines that are not wakandan in origin but appear to have been used BY rather than AGAINST the clan and Hawkeye is pretty sure he knows their true origin, which he does not immediately feel the need to share.
I think adding Hawkeye does more than just gives you a funnyman, though, with his position being a more typically fish out of water tale. I think it connects Black Panther very immediately back to the Avengers in a way that, written properly, wouldn't feel forced or overshadow Black Panther. I do wonder if, since he is a lesser well known property in the GA eyes and because he is he first true global Avenger that some people might not feel as immediately drawn in the way the were for others. Let's face it even in the comics Black Panther holds a rather unique position since, a the ruller of an African Nation and a member of a team sworn to protect the world. Adding in Hawkeye shows that, yes, this character is an Avenger even if he's not in America. Which may be stupid obvious to all of us, but isn't this the sort of things studios worry about?
Plus, Hawkeye (while awesome) isn't going to outshine Black Panther. He'll not only have his suit and herbs, but also a home filled and scientific knowledge advantage. He's definitely set to be the leader in this mission. At the same time, Hawkeye offers some tonally appropriate humor, his even being there creates conflict, and on a shallow note he makes for an American surrogate, which I think the studios will want to see. It has potential.
I get that, but real world considerations take precedent. You really want to take Captain America out of Avengers 3 just so he can appear in Black Panther?
And that's assuming Black Panther comes before Avengers 3. If it comes after, you won't have Chris Evans at all.
I was under the impression that African American culture is well American culture unless you feel somehow that blacks aren't American enough. While we have skin tone in common with Black Africans our Culture is American. Racism and other social ills aside black Americans have more in common culturally with white Americans then Black Africans.
Yet somehow in your mind black American directors would automatically Americanize Panther but those white American directors who we have so much in common with wouldn't?
I get that, but real world considerations take precedent. You really want to take Captain America out of Avengers 3 just so he can appear in Black Panther?
And that's assuming Black Panther comes before Avengers 3. If it comes after, you won't have Chris Evans at all.
Yet somehow in your mind black American directors would automatically Americanize Panther but those white American directors who we have so much in common with wouldn't?
I think you misunderstood me. I'll try to explain it more carefully and see if we can clear up this confusion.
Chris Evans is under contract for two more movies. That means he can appear in any two movies, but there's no guarantee he'd appear in more. Given his comments that he'd like to stop acting for awhile afterward, it seems likely he will only appear in two movies. One of those movies is Captain America 3. The question becomes, what other movie do you want him in? I think both of us are in agreement that the movie should be Avengers 3. I was pointing out that, if he appears in Avengers 3, he's not appearing in a Black Panther movie. If he appears in a Black Panther movie, he can't be in Avengers 3.
He certainly looks like a villain. Marvel might want as many a listers as possible though if they decide to get the main stars from nollywood or whatever
So, what do you guys think the likelihood of this appearing in phase 3 is? I dont wanna jinx it but i'm getting the feeling that Panther won't be fitting into Phase 3's plans. We know for sure theres gonna be Antman, Cap 3, Thor 3, GotG 2 and Dr Strange is pretty much guaranteed. Thats already 5 movies for Phase 3. Do you guys think we'll see this in phase 3 or 4?
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