The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Chanes of this beating SM2 Quality wise?

[Vid Electricz]

Yeah, I think so, too. For me it's much more difficult to enjoy a Batman movie than a Spidey, Hulk or Iron Man flick.
So, the only Batman movie I really like is Begins. But TDK, Batman '89 and Batman Returns might be better films. I don't know.

Batman fans really hit the jackpot with Begins though. Not only was there aesthetic faithfulness to the source material, but a very well made, well put together film.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Out of curiosity, what is it about TDK you don't like as much? It's not very often I hear such an opinion, that's why I'm asking.

First of all, I don't like the characterisation of the Joker as a simple terrorist wearing make-up. I just love the classic Joker from "Five Ways Of Revenge" or "The Killing Joke" which is so much more intersting. And I just hate that grungy look of the Joker. Heath was great but the character was poorly written.

In Begins they presented Batman as a real badass. In TDK he is just a crybaby. And he doesn't do anything. Joker is destroying his city and killed his love affair and Batman always is a step behind.

I also hated it that Harvey died and no one in Gotham ever heard about Two-Face. Plus dozens of plot holes and unfinished scenes (what happened after the Joker crashed the party?) and that stupid sonar device.

Heath was great. But the rest was just mediocre. It was a huge letdown for me.

 

[Oscorp]

First of all, I don't like the characterisation of the Joker as a simple terrorist wearing make-up. I just love the classic Joker from "Five Ways Of Revenge" or "The Killing Joke" which is so much more intersting. And I just hate that grungy look of the Joker. Heath was great but the character was poorly written.

In Begins they presented Batman as a real badass. In TDK he is just a crybaby. And he doesn't do anything. Joker is destroying his city and killed his love affair and Batman always is a step behind.

I also hated it that Harvey died and no one in Gotham ever heard about Two-Face. Plus dozens of plot holes and unfinished scenes (what happened after the Joker crashed the party?) and that stupid sonar device.

Heath was great. But the rest was just mediocre. It was a huge letdown for me.

While TDK is my favourite CBM, I can see some of your points. I'd have loved to see the more crazy Joker. Joker was crazy in TDK, but I mean more in the dark comedic way. Heath's Joker is still however the best CBM villain ever if you ask me.

Mark Hamill's Joker remains my favourite on screen version.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Heath's Joker is still however the best CBM villain ever if you ask me.

I'd say Doc Ock is very different but on the same level.
TDK wasn't a bad movie. But I expected so much more in 2008.
Being a Batman fan my favourite CBMs are Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2.

 

[Oscorp]

I'd say Doc Ock is very different but on the same level.
TDK wasn't a bad movie. But I expected so much more in 2008.
Being a Batman fan my favourite CBMs are Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2.

I never liked the A.I. arms thing about Doc Ock, which brings him down several notches on my list unfortunately. Perfect actor, perfect look, great action, but I didn't care much about the rest.

But I can see why you'd have Spider-Man 2 as one of your favourites. It's a very well told story. Same goes for X-Men 2. Speaking of the X-Men, Magneto is another favourite CBM villain for me.

I'd rank them like this:

1) Nolan's Joker
2) Magneto
3) Nolan's Bane
4) Loki
5) William Stryker

Sorry for being OT

 

[UltimateWebhead]

For me, ASM has better tone, better performances, more visual and subtle story telling, less camp and what I find to be more real, relateable characters. These are qualities I would take in a film over another in a heart beat.

I agree. I found all of these same qualities in ASM and it's part of the reason I truly enjoyed the movie so much.

First of all, I don't like the characterisation of the Joker as a simple terrorist wearing make-up. I just love the classic Joker from "Five Ways Of Revenge" or "The Killing Joke" which is so much more intersting. And I just hate that grungy look of the Joker. Heath was great but the character was poorly written.

In Begins they presented Batman as a real badass. In TDK he is just a crybaby. And he doesn't do anything. Joker is destroying his city and killed his love affair and Batman always is a step behind.

I also hated it that Harvey died and no one in Gotham ever heard about Two-Face. Plus dozens of plot holes and unfinished scenes (what happened after the Joker crashed the party?) and that stupid sonar device.

Heath was great. But the rest was just mediocre. It was a huge letdown for me.

I've always wondered this type of thing. I'm not at all familiar with Batman comics...I'm a Spidey-reader--and I'm really only familiar with Batman thru his movies, games, live-action/animated TV shows. I guess we're opposites in that regard. However, it's something that I've been curious about--how someone that is fluent in the comics of Batman would find the portrayals of the characters and stories in Nolan's universe. Thanks for sharing.

Mark Hamill's Joker remains my favourite on screen version.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

I am very excited about what Paul Giamatti will do as Rhino. I don't know much about the character but I love Giamatti.

@Oscorp: Magneto is my #1. Because he is just not poor evil. He has a reason behind it, a great back-up story. He is not the typical villain, he is much more. Plus: Fassbender and especially McKellen are AWESOME.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I never liked the A.I. arms thing about Doc Ock, which brings him down several notches on my list unfortunately. Perfect actor, perfect look, great action, but I didn't care much about the rest.

But I can see why you'd have Spider-Man 2 as one of your favourites. It's a very well told story. Same goes for X-Men 2. Speaking of the X-Men, Magneto is another favourite CBM villain for me.

I'd rank them like this:

1) Nolan's Joker
2) Magneto
3) Nolan's Bane
4) Loki
5) William Stryker

Sorry for being OT

Same for me. I've always seen Ock as the TRUE anti-Peter. Kid with a rough homelife, bullied often, turned to science, had an incredible accident happen to him and was gifted with great power. But he chose the opposite path.

It was Ock's choice and that was what I loved about it. No stupid evil robotic arms that messed with his brain. Otto is a man who's driven by the need to be the most powerful man out there, and he always has been. Having him be "good deep down" was something that drove me nuts.

Originally it was rumored it would be Ock and Lizard for SM2 and you can see how Raimi mashed what should have been Connors arc and characterization into Ock, which was unfortunate.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I've always wondered this type of thing. I'm not at all familiar with Batman comics...I'm a Spidey-reader--and I'm really only familiar with Batman thru his movies, games, live-action/animated TV shows. I guess we're opposites in that regard. However, it's something that I've been curious about--how someone that is fluent in the comics of Batman would find the portrayals of the characters and stories in Nolan's universe. Thanks for sharing.

As with any adaptation or translation to screen of a character that has been around for 70+ years, and who have seen countless iterations and interpretations, the best you can hope for is a fidelity or verisimilitude to the overall spirit of the source material. If you get the aesthetics as well, that's just the cherry on top.

 

[Oscorp]

I agree. I found all of these same qualities in ASM and it's part of the reason I truly enjoyed the movie so much.



I've always wondered this type of thing. I'm not at all familiar with Batman comics...I'm a Spidey-reader--and I'm really only familiar with Batman thru his movies, games, live-action/animated TV shows. I guess we're opposites in that regard. However, it's something that I've been curious about--how someone that is fluent in the comics of Batman would find the portrayals of the characters and stories in Nolan's universe. Thanks for sharing.

*High fiving back*

There's this loveable twisted fun about that Joker that I just love. I missed that in TDK, which is also why I'd have no problem with Joker returning in a reboot. That goes for the overall style of Batman's world as well. I'd love for the next reboot to have the feel and style of the cartoon/Arkham games world (and the comics of course, not saying Nolan wasn't faithful to those).

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

If you get the aesthetics as well, that's just the cherry on top.

I hope Green Goblin will look like his classic comic counterpart this time.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I agree. I found all of these same qualities in ASM and it's part of the reason I truly enjoyed the movie so much.



I've always wondered this type of thing. I'm not at all familiar with Batman comics...I'm a Spidey-reader--and I'm really only familiar with Batman thru his movies, games, live-action/animated TV shows. I guess we're opposites in that regard. However, it's something that I've been curious about--how someone that is fluent in the comics of Batman would find the portrayals of the characters and stories in Nolan's universe. Thanks for sharing.

I personally think he's being a bit hard on Heath. Heath had a lot of very Joker-ish mannerisms. He just wasn't quite as flamboyant, but he certainly wasn't just a "simple terrorist in makeup." He still had lots of Jokerish qualities.

However, I would agree that Hammil is easily tops. Heath is my favorite live action, but Hammil's Joker nails it. What he does to Robin in ROTJ is still one of my favorite Joker moments ever.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Same for me. I've always seen Ock as the TRUE anti-Peter. Kid with a rough homelife, bullied often, turned to science, had an incredible accident happen to him and was gifted with great power. But he chose the opposite path.

It was Ock's choice and that was what I loved about it. No stupid evil robotic arms that messed with his brain. Otto is a man who's driven by the need to be the most powerful man out there, and he always has been. Having him be "good deep down" was something that drove me nuts.

Originally it was rumored it would be Ock and Lizard for SM2 and you can see how Raimi mashed what should have been Connors arc and characterization into Ock, which was unfortunate.

Exactly. Molina's performance aside, this sums up my thoughts.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

I personally think he's being a bit hard on Heath. Heath had a lot of very Joker-ish mannerisms. He just wasn't quite as flamboyant, but he certainly wasn't just a "simple terrorist in makeup..

It wasn't Heath it was the script. Heath did a great job but I just don't like the way Joker was written. Sorry for OT.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

*High fiving back*

There's this loveable twisted fun about that Joker that I just love. I missed that in TDK, which is also why I'd have no problem with Joker returning in a reboot. That goes for the overall style of Batman's world as well. I'd love for the next reboot to have the feel and style of the cartoon/Arkham games world (and the comics of course, not saying Nolan wasn't faithful to those).

I found Heath's performance as the Joker to be excellent. He was captivating and is my favorite villain in all CBMs. I still think Hamill's Joker is the best version though because he captured that "loveable twisted fun" and there's so many great moments with his character.

I personally think he's being a bit hard on Heath. Heath had a lot of very Joker-ish mannerisms. He just wasn't quite as flamboyant, but he certainly wasn't just a "simple terrorist in makeup." He still had lots of Jokerish qualities.

However, I would agree that Hammil is easily tops. Heath is my favorite live action, but Hammil's Joker nails it. What he does to Robin in ROTJ is still one of my favorite Joker moments ever.

Well, he still said Heath did a good job with the performance so it seemed he was being more critical of how the character was written. Like I said, I'm not at all familiar with Batman comics so it's very interesting to hear opinions of those who are well-read.

 

[Oscorp]

I am very excited about what Paul Giamatti will do as Rhino. I don't know much about the character but I love Giamatti.

@Oscorp: Magneto is my #1. Because he is just not poor evil. He has a reason behind it, a great back-up story. He is not the typical villain, he is much more. Plus: Fassbender and especially McKellen are AWESOME.

If they can make Rhino as awesome as in TSSM, I'd be very happy. I think he will be lots of fun.

Magneto is awesome in every way, for the exact reasons you mention. In the comics he's my second favourite villain of all, below Joker.

Same for me. I've always seen Ock as the TRUE anti-Peter. Kid with a rough homelife, bullied often, turned to science, had an incredible accident happen to him and was gifted with great power. But he chose the opposite path.

It was Ock's choice and that was what I loved about it. No stupid evil robotic arms that messed with his brain. Otto is a man who's driven by the need to be the most powerful man out there, and he always has been. Having him be "good deep down" was something that drove me nuts.

Originally it was rumored it would be Ock and Lizard for SM2 and you can see how Raimi mashed what should have been Connors arc and characterization into Ock, which was unfortunate.

I agree with everything here, even though one can argue that the accident damaged his brain. I don't think he's evil through and through, but I think there's so much anger and hurt inside him that you have to dig very deep to find it, almost out of reach. I didn't feel that way with Doc Ock at all. As you said, you could see the Lizard traces in him.

As with any adaptation or translation to screen of a character that has been around for 70+ years, and who have seen countless iterations and interpretations, the best you can hope for is a fidelity or verisimilitude to the overall spirit of the source material. If you get the aesthetics as well, that's just the cherry on top.

True. But sometimes the characters just don't feel like their comic book counterpart at all, which is disappointing. There are things in the comics that stay pretty consistent in the comics with few exceptions. I just don't like when directors put their own spin on things so much that you don't feel the comic book influence at all almost. Had I been more of an Iron Man comics fan I'd probably be furious about The Mandarin like many others. Since I'm not, I liked how it played out in the film for the sake of the film itself. But I can totally see why others are extremely disappointed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

It wasn't Heath it was the script. Heath did a great job but I just don't like the way Joker was written. Sorry for OT.

Yeah, I could see that, but even still, I don't think he was written quite as un-Jokerlike as you think. But it's all personal preference really. Batman (and all Batman characters) can be tough because he's gone through SO many different iterations. It's one of the few times where you can look at all the films made about him and point to a time in the comics where each film was actually very accurate to a certain era. You can't say that of many other characters.

I agree with everything here, even though one can argue that the accident damaged his brain. I don't think he's evil through and through, but I think there's so much anger and hurt inside him that you have to dig very deep to find it, almost out of reach. I didn't feel that way with Doc Ock at all. As you said, you could see the Lizard traces in him.

I agree. Ock is complicated, but when you get down to it, it's been his choices that define him, not some kind of bizarre evil AI that accidentally was wired into his brain. I would have liked to see that Ock, because he so clearly is the mirror of Peter.

 

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Magneto is awesome in every way, for the exact reasons you mention. In the comics he's my second favourite villain of all, below Joker.

I absolutely agree with that.

So, from what I've read so far: For Spidey fans it is very possible that TASM2 will beat SM2. For the usual movie fan not so much. Am I right?

 

[Infinity9999x]

I absolutely agree with that.

So, from what I've read so far: For Spidey fans it is very possible that TASM2 will beat SM2. For the usual movie fan not so muc. Am I right?

More or less. Though it's been a while since SM2 has been released, and if the film is good the casual movie fan will eat it up. The general audience has never been all that picky.

 

[Oscorp]

I agree. Ock is complicated, but when you get down to it, it's been his choices that define him, not some kind of bizarre evil AI that accidentally was wired into his brain. I would have liked to see that Ock, because he so clearly is the mirror of Peter.

Yeah I agree! I'd love for Doc Ock to return in this series. I hope he'll be the leader of Sinister Six.

I absolutely agree with that.

So, from what I've read so far: For Spidey fans it is very possible that TASM2 will beat SM2. For the usual movie fan not so muc. Am I right?

I don't think it's that simple. The opinions vary from person to person, not to be grouped into categories. There are many regular movie fans I know that love ASM and vice versa.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I absolutely agree with that.

So, from what I've read so far: For Spidey fans it is very possible that TASM2 will beat SM2. For the usual movie fan not so muc. Am I right?

You know what? If Webb and co. hit a grand slam and have a meaningful, thoughtful story with characters I care about, and it's told really effectively and just put together well for an overall satisfying experience, I will have zero issues with giving it the praise it deserves. It's not a matter of one movie de-throning another or whatever. It's about making a meaningful, worthwhile storytelling experience.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

So, from what I've read so far: For Spidey fans it is very possible that TASM2 will beat SM2. For the usual movie fan not so muc. Am I right?

It really depends on the Spidey-fan's perception of how they see Peter and Spider-Man. But yes, imo, it's very possible ASM2 will be a better Spidey film than SM2.

From the filmmaking perspective again it's possible ASM2 could be a better made movie than SM2 but it comes down to how focused the production staff is about getting the final cut of the film. Are they unified in their vision of telling a great story? Most people involved with this new movie have talked about the problems they had with ASM 1's script and have praised how ASM 2 has greatly improved in that area.

 

[Spideyfan117]

Same for me. I've always seen Ock as the TRUE anti-Peter. Kid with a rough homelife, bullied often, turned to science, had an incredible accident happen to him and was gifted with great power. But he chose the opposite path.

It was Ock's choice and that was what I loved about it. No stupid evil robotic arms that messed with his brain. Otto is a man who's driven by the need to be the most powerful man out there, and he always has been. Having him be "good deep down" was something that drove me nuts.

Originally it was rumored it would be Ock and Lizard for SM2 and you can see how Raimi mashed what should have been Connors arc and characterization into Ock, which was unfortunate.

I find these to be some very interesting points. I think you have to expect a blending of characters when a director isn't sure about being able to fit all of them into his universe. I think that might actually be the case with Doc Ock in Webb's universe. Otto might not even make an appearance. However, what's particularly interesting, is that Electro in TASM2 is apparently fulfilling that "anti-Peter" role that usually would be part of Otto's character. It's something they talked about quite a bit. He's brilliant, he's socially awkward, people put him down, and he stumbles across great power. But he's not going to practice the responsibility part that goes along with it. So this could be a way of representing the "anti-Peter" without having to use Doc Ock again. Of course, it could also just be a way of making Electro more interesting. Only time, and possible Blu-ray commentary, will tell.

 

[Oscorp]

I find these to be some very interesting points. I think you have to expect a blending of characters when a director isn't sure about being able to fit all of them into his universe. I think that might actually be the case with Doc Ock in Webb's universe. Otto might not even make an appearance. However, what's particularly interesting, is that Electro in TASM2 is apparently fulfilling that "anti-Peter" role that usually would be part of Otto's character. It's something they talked about quite a bit. He's brilliant, he's socially awkward, people put him down, and he stumbles across great power. But he's not going to practice the responsibility part that goes along with it. So this could be a way of representing the "anti-Peter" without having to use Doc Ock again. Of course, it could also just be a way of making Electro more interesting. Only time, and possible Blu-ray commentary, will tell.

That's true, but you can apply that to pretty much any supervillain. They get powers and use them irresponsibly. However, it's true that they made Dillon a geek. But he's much more of a loser than Peter Parker is in this series it seems. Not trying to defend the character though. I do feel that his overly geeky look is over the top and I'm not too fond of that. But in the comics he was always a loser, or at least he was always told that he was by his parents. That's why he has such an inferiority complex.

But it is true that we'll never get villains who are 100% true to the character. I just feel that Doc Ock wasn't nearly what I wanted him to be, very similarily to how disappointing Lizard is in ASM.

 

[Joe_Kickass]

TASM2 won't come close to SM2, in terms of influence. Plus they have the train battle to go against, and I have a bad feeling that Max Dillion is going to be a pretty eye rolling villian. I mean just look at him. LOOK AT HIM. If you're ok with the way he looks than I've got to say you have absolutely no ground whatsoever to complain about the ham in Raimi's movies. None of his characters looked like THAT. A comb over, gap teeth, and nerd glasses? A black dude with a COMB OVER? If anything is going to turn people off from this movie it'll be that.