Chaos War

[runawayboulder]

Swordsman participated in some of the **** dealing with Masque/Madame Masque as well. He wasn't a regular team member in the way that Hercules or Vision were at the time, but he wasn't a total non-factor.

You mean The Crossing? I vaguely remember him being there but Magdalane pretty much disappeared off the face of the planet.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I have still proudly never read "The Crossing."

 

[JewishHobbit]

Neither have I. I wanted to buy it back in the day because of the chromium covers, but now that I'm older I don't really care as much.

 

[runawayboulder]

Yeah The Crossing sucked pretty bad. Harras was on his way out and Terry Kavanaugh was taking over and it became messy. Avengers were killed off for pure shock value and for no reason. Teen Tony did have my interest for a few minutes but he was quickly erased thanks to the Onslaught reboot. Some things were OK, like Hawkeye and Wanda's new costumes. Deodato was pretty young at the time and his stuff wasn't the greatest. He was following Epting of course.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Who did die back then? I know someone did but never really learned who. For that matter I have no idea what the Crossing was even about.

 

[runawayboulder]

Nobody big, Marilla the nanny for Luna (Crystal and Quicksilver's daughter), Gilgamesh, Adult Tony and some other chick with no powers that had some random association with the team, her name escapes me at the moment. Janet was nearly killed, but she ended up in a cocoon and came out Insecticoid-Wasp.

 

[runawayboulder]

Oh and The Crossing was basically about Kang having brainwashed Tony dating back to sometime around the first 30 issues of Avengers and making him a traitor to the team. Tony was the one that killed Marilla and caused the team to leave the mansion for everyone's safety. It was like the big X-Men traitor plot but lacked even less substance.

It was wacky times, for some reason Mantis was in cahoots with Kang and Madam Masque was buddy buddy with the Avengers. Masque even started wearing an Avengers leather jacket and pretty much became a member. Thankfully Cap and Thor were minimally involved in this mess and showed up at the end which was called Timeslide. Cap at the time was being defrosted by The Red Skull and Sharon during the early part of Waid/Garney's 1st run and Thor was running around shirtless and banging The Enchantress like a drum.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thank Warren Ellis for that Thor stuff. "Worldengine." Ugh.

 

[Dread]

No, I just don't give a f*** about Vision, Jr. where the Vision is concerned. But I think they can easily coexist, personally. You're the one who insists that the Vision coming back may as well be like a bullet in the synthetic brain to Vision, Jr.

Because it would be. I have no faith in editorial to treat their young heroes well. Sure, they have the Young Avengers keep showing up, but they don't do anything or grow or change or whatever. And because the adult heroes can never permanently die or retire, they hit a ghetto where they're stuck (like no end of "new X-Men" kids; none of them ever become X-Men long or replace anyone. Cannonball will never replace Cyclops. X-23 will never replace Wolverine, and so on).

I liked the original Vision but I also like his younger counterpart and this isn't DC. DC knows, or used to know, how to handle legacy heroes and/or the "mentor/sidekick" thing. Marvel doesn't do that. Adult Marvel heroes see teenage heroes as annoyances at worst or canon fodder at best. Steve Rogers literally recruited the Young Avengers twice for that purpose, while in the same breath usually wishing they'd pack it in and go to school. You can't have Vision and a Vision Jr. and expect both to be handled well. That's just 900% not going to happen. And usually when one of them goes down the tubes at Marvel, it's the junior.

That's sort of what made RUNAWAYS work, I think. They were on the fringes and knew it. They rejected "the establishment" of adult heroes, figuring they cared more about their own self interest. And they were usually right.

Admittedly, Vision had a crappy death sequence in DISASSEMBLED. And to be honest I still don't know why he couldn't be rebuilt again, but whatever. The benefit of a robot hero is you can rebuilt them from microns, practically. DEAD AVENGERS gave Victor a much better death sequence and that satisfies me for now.

The problem that Vision Jr. has is the same as most of his team have. He's been kept in a freezer so long waiting for Heinberg that he has little unique qualities of his own - he's still in cipher mode. All that happened to his character from 2005 until now is he picked a human name and he's definitely dating Stature. Even if you never actually "see" them on a date; they just make lovey dovey lines to each other at random during missions.

Vision Jr hasn't been seen hide or hair since SIEGE. Cap Reborn and Mighty Avengers were almost a year ago. He was getting minimal use there anyway. Make his dumb ass all red or something and call him The Scarlet Vision.

He's in AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE and turned up in two I AM AN AVENGER stories, at least. Neither are very important, although the former supposedly is supposed to wrap up the Wanda subplot.

"Scarlet Vision"? I guess we should go back to merging several adult hero names for the kids, huh? Kate Bishop can go back to being "Hawkingbird".

If any Young Avenger were to add Scarlet to their name, it probably would be Wiccan at this point. He's been the lead of Crusade.

 

[runawayboulder]

"Scarlet Vision"? I guess we should go back to merging several adult hero names for the kids, huh? Kate Bishop can go back to being "Hawkingbird".

I always preferred Lady Hawkeye.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm pretty okay with "Vision, Jr." for Jonas. Have the Vision take him to a baseball game now and then and everything.

 

[runawayboulder]

One of the 2nd best Vision stories I ever read was an issue of Avengers Spotlight where he showed up on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and made a fool of himself. This was right after he was destroyed and rebuilt with the white skin.

The best story was hands down Avengers #348

 

[TheCorpulent1]

God, I love that issue. That was one of the first comics I read with the Vision, too. Made me a lifelong fan even though I didn't exactly understand like half of what was going on (since it was kind of heavy on backstory that took place elsewhere).

 

[runawayboulder]

It was probably one of the most emotional issues I've ever read, especially the ending. That book had to have won some kind of industry award at the time.

 

[Dread]

I always preferred Lady Hawkeye.

Lady and She are probably the most overused feminized details to male codenames in Marvel comics. I wonder when and where it will end. Will we get a Lady Kingpin? A She-Apocalypse? We already got a, heaven help us, a "Miss Sinister".

Y'know who was a cute lady villain? Commanda from UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN. She was yet another thief, but she wasn't a cat-burglar; if anything, she utilized technology more than scaling windows. Not a Lady or a She. Guess where she is? Limbo.

For a company that dedicated a whole year to promoting "WOMEN OF MARVEL", as 2010 came to an end a lot of us had difficult picking top female characters from their year.

I'm pretty okay with "Vision, Jr." for Jonas. Have the Vision take him to a baseball game now and then and everything.

Marvel's too humorless for that. They literally expect a comic titled WOLVERINE #1000 to be taken seriously.

Note that I or fans call Jonas "Vision Jr." or "Vision II" or "Vision 2.0". Marvel insists on just Vision. Much as Joe Q used to insist the 616 term was stupid, even while selling Ultimate, Exiles, 1602, Marvel Adventures, Squadron Supreme, and Marvel Zombies comics all set in other universes.

 

[runawayboulder]

Well thankfully he's gone now and hopefully we have a more "quiet" EiC on our hands that tends to not shove his foot in his own mouth.

 

[Dread]

Well thankfully he's gone now and hopefully we have a more "quiet" EiC on our hands that tends to not shove his foot in his own mouth.

Hopefully. To be fair, Axel Alonso so far hasn't been as obnoxious, even if the position involves some degree of shilling for stuff while also not answering direct questions. To be fair, Tom Brevoort has probably said stuff that irked me more often than Alonso.

And Joe Q isn't "gone", he's been promoted past the station. In reality little is going to happen at Marvel that he directly opposes. He just won't be the face of day to day comic operations anymore. He's more involved in TV and films.

 

[bored]

Oh and The Crossing was basically about Kang having brainwashed Tony dating back to sometime around the first 30 issues of Avengers and making him a traitor to the team. Tony was the one that killed Marilla and caused the team to leave the mansion for everyone's safety. It was like the big X-Men traitor plot but lacked even less substance.

It was wacky times, for some reason Mantis was in cahoots with Kang and Madam Masque was buddy buddy with the Avengers. Masque even started wearing an Avengers leather jacket and pretty much became a member. Thankfully Cap and Thor were minimally involved in this mess and showed up at the end which was called Timeslide. Cap at the time was being defrosted by The Red Skull and Sharon during the early part of Waid/Garney's 1st run and Thor was running around shirtless and banging The Enchantress like a drum.

Yeah, "The Crossing" was a total mess. The last person killed there was Rita DeMara, the female Yellowjacket who was part of the Dead Avengers in "Chaos War". The character Masque was a good clone of Madame Masque who popped up again later during Busiek's run. And Mantis ended up being a Space Phantom, but that was a retcon.

 

[runawayboulder]

That's right! I forgot about Rita. And I read Dead Avengers too....

 

[JewishHobbit]

Because it would be. I have no faith in editorial to treat their young heroes well. Sure, they have the Young Avengers keep showing up, but they don't do anything or grow or change or whatever. And because the adult heroes can never permanently die or retire, they hit a ghetto where they're stuck (like no end of "new X-Men" kids; none of them ever become X-Men long or replace anyone. Cannonball will never replace Cyclops. X-23 will never replace Wolverine, and so on).

My question is... why do they have to be legacy characters? I've NEVER looked at the X-students as the next generation or legacy in any way. They were just in training to become future X-Men and many have done just that. Cannonball's even been an X-Man for years (first in the 90's, then a short hiatus, then back in X-Treme X-Men through now). Then you have other students like Richtor, Wolvesbane, and Monet who's moved on to being their own heroes over in X-Factor. No need to actually replace anybody.

Why can't the Young Avengers just be training to be the best heroes that the Avengers can make them? Yeah, Vision and Hawkeye are special cases because of their namesakes, but otherwise I don't see the big deal. To force the mentality of Legacy characters is certainly stunting... so force a different mentality.

A She-Apocalypse? We already got a, heaven help us, a "Miss Sinister".

Not as of the last issue of X-23. Miss is Mr. once more

And Shepocalypse was done briefly once before in a flashback in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, "The Crossing" was a total mess. The last person killed there was Rita DeMara, the female Yellowjacket who was part of the Dead Avengers in "Chaos War". The character Masque was a good clone of Madame Masque who popped up again later during Busiek's run. And Mantis ended up being a Space Phantom, but that was a retcon.

Indeed, "THE CROSSING" was horrific. It only took about six years before Marvel broke the Avengers apart with some cluster**** event.

That's right! I forgot about Rita. And I read Dead Avengers too....

Indeed. And at least now Rita is back to have another go at life. And she got to be one of the heroes who battled for the fate of creation in the final hour like the God Squad, Hercules, Amadeus Cho, the Hulks, and Alpha Flight.

My question is... why do they have to be legacy characters? I've NEVER looked at the X-students as the next generation or legacy in any way. They were just in training to become future X-Men and many have done just that. Cannonball's even been an X-Man for years (first in the 90's, then a short hiatus, then back in X-Treme X-Men through now). Then you have other students like Richtor, Wolvesbane, and Monet who's moved on to being their own heroes over in X-Factor. No need to actually replace anybody.

Why can't the Young Avengers just be training to be the best heroes that the Avengers can make them? Yeah, Vision and Hawkeye are special cases because of their namesakes, but otherwise I don't see the big deal. To force the mentality of Legacy characters is certainly stunting... so force a different mentality.

That's simple. The team is called YOUNG AVENGERS. Therefore, they're linked to that team. To be fair, many of the junior league X-Men had different team names, like NEW MUTANTS and GENERATION X or even, briefly, ACADEMY X. On the other hand, once you call a set of them YOUNG X-MEN or NEW X-MEN, though....it becomes natural. Like how TEEN TITANS or TITANS you could argue is different from when it became YOUNG JUSTICE for a while.

The adult Avengers also aren't really training them or helping them much at all. Yeah, they can enter the mansion now. Brilliant. They're still selling to jolly stomp them for backing up Wiccan or looking for Wanda. They still would rather they quit, until there is some crisis and then Steve Rogers is willing to gather them for fodder.