Church and State?

[Genesis 1.0]

After reading that the 2001 ARIS Poll shows that a whopping 76% of Americans consider themselves Christian, I had to do some research. If this was indeed true, then it seemed to completely contradict some of the sentiment seen in the media and pretty much everyday life.

Who else to turn to for credible polling data than Pew Research? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical. In any case, this in-depth report breaks it all down and it seems that America remaisn just as divided on the issue as ever, even among those that consider themselves Christian. All in all, the public seems unhappy with both Liberals and Conservatives.

I'll post the link at the bottom of the page but just a few nuggets that struck a nerve towards the top:

-69% of Americans feel that Liberals have gone too far with pushing religion out of schools and government.

-49% of Americans feel that Conservatives have become too assertive with regards to their tactics of spreading their faith.

-Only 26% of Americans feel that the Democratic Party is friendly to religion.

-59% say that religion has a decreased role in the country and feel it's a bad thing.

-42% feel it's increasing it's hold on the way the government is run and feel it's a bad thing.

Just with these few off the top, you can see some really strange contradictions. It's okay that it affect the country as a whole but not the government? Anyone else find this strange?

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=153

 

[EdRyder]

What the bad place is 'the 2002 consensus"? Link?
Did you mean 2002 Census? Even still, Link?

You aren't seriously going to suggest that data collected from 'The Pew Research center" is impartial

 

[StorminNorman]

The Pew Research Center IS impartial and a trusted polling agency.

 

[Carcharodon]

After reading that the 2002 Consensus shows that a whopping 76% of Americans consider themselves Christian, I had to do some research. If this was indeed true, then it seemed to completely contradict some of the sentiment seen in the media and pretty much everyday life.

Who else to turn to for credible polling data than Pew Research? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical. In any case, this in-depth report breaks it all down and it seems that America remaisn just as divided on the issue as ever, even among those that consider themselves Christian. All in all, the public seems unhappy with both Liberals and Conservatives.

I'll post the link at the bottom of the page but just a few nuggets that struck a nerve towards the top:

-69% of Americans feel that Liberals have gone too far with pushing religion out of schools and government.

-49% of Americans feel that Conservatives have become too assertive with regards to their tactics of spreading their faith.

-Only 26% of Americans feel that the Democratic Party is friendly to religion.

-59% say that religion has a decreased role in the country and feel it's a bad thing.

-42% feel it's increasing it's hold on the way the government is run and feel it's a bad thing.

Just with these few off the top, you can see some really strange contradictions. It's okay that it affect the country as a whole but not the government? Anyone else find this strange?

http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=153

Are you trying to advocate the integration of church and state...? I'm not sure I follow.

 

[jaguarr]

<Offspring>Gotta keep 'em separated!</Offspring>

jag

 

[Genesis 1.0]

What the bad place is 'the 2002 consensus"? Link?
Did you mean 2002 Census? Even still, Link?

You aren't seriously going to suggest that data collected from 'The Pew Research center" is impartial

'Consensus' is a play on words we used to have at the DIWF, but I suppose that's moot here. In any case, yes that's what I meant.

As to Pew being impartial, uh, yes. As reliable as anything these days.

I read about it in Newsweek but a quicker refrence through Google is: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll7.htm

1st thing that popped up.

Wall Crawler: NO. Can't stress that enough. I just found the results to be odd and they seemed to contradict one another. I trust Pew, but it just seems to be rather odd.

 

[CorpusBlack]

<Offspring>Gotta keep 'em separated!</Offspring>

jag

 

[Obi-Ron]

'Consensus' is a play on words we used to have at the DIWF, but I suppose that's moot here. In any case, yes that's what I meant.

The census is taken every 10 ten years, in the "0" year - 1980, 1990, 2000, etc. There was no 2002 census.

 

[Carcharodon]

'Consensus' is a play on words we used to have at the DIWF, but I suppose that's moot here. In any case, yes that's what I meant.

As to Pew being impartial, uh, yes. As reliable as anything these days.

I read about it in Newsweek but a quicker refrence through Google is: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll7.htm

1st thing that popped up.

Wall Crawler: NO. Can't stress that enough. I just found the results to be odd and they seemed to contradict one another. I trust Pew, but it just seems to be rather odd.

Oh, okay. I just wasn't sure. I get it now.

 

[Mr. Credible]

there's no good reason a 2,000 year old book that half of the country doesn't believe in should have anything to do with the way our laws are made.

besides, why does the government think they can decide which parts they can integrate into our lives? if having abortions is frowned upon in the bible, and therefor modern life; why don't we have a law stating some guy has to give a father 14 cows to marry his daughter? why don't we still have slavery? why not an eye for an eye?

you can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to follow because it suits your agenda.

 

[gkokujin]

there's no good reason a 2,000 year old book that half of the country doesn't believe in should have anything to do with the way our laws are made.

regardless of if what ever number of people "believe in it" does that negate the often misquoted universal truths that are inside it?

TRUTH is TRUTH, regardless of the source. I do not agree with nor follow Islam or Buddhism, but i do not discount that there may be certain truths within those faiths.

To do otherwise would be simply foolish and ignorant.

besides, why does the government think they can decide which parts they can integrate into our lives? if having abortions is frowned upon in the bible, and therefor modern life; why don't we have a law stating some guy has to give a father 14 cows to marry his daughter? why don't we still have slavery? why not an eye for an eye?

you can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to follow because it suits your agenda.

then a LOT of the judicial/legal/government system that is already in place should be removed from the books?

take the credit bureau for instance, after 7 years items are supposed to be removed from your credit. That is taken from the Bible.

There are a lot of simple things that are integrated into our society most Americans do not know originated from the Bible.


As far as Church/State Separation argument, from reading what I have read it means that the church can not RULE over the people and be the end all, it never said that the government couldn't be "faith based".

proof-texting (along with blatant ignorance) is yet another way this country is going down the drain.

 

[cerealkiller182]

You need a separation of church and state because in allowing any religion to have control of the government goes against the basis of the USA government by contradicting that everyone is equal.

US government is based on our founding fathers personal beliefs and the legal/political rules are regulated by changing times and beliefs. The people involved in the changing process are driven by personal beliefs and this is as much influence that religion has over government. Someone might say that by this example that religion has everything to do with government but you have to remember that their is a wide array of religions and people in this country.

 

[HUMAN]

I'm a Christian and I support the separation of church and state. I respect the fact that the government recognizes our Creator, but no single religion should control our government.

Look at the Middle East. Most of their governments are run on religion and look how screwed up their countries are. Look at what our Founders fled from. A Catholic controlled government. Any religion cannot run a government because some extremist will always get in the hot seat and make life for the rest of us horrid.

In the end, it isn't really the religion, it's people operating through the veil of religion that's the problem.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Are you trying to advocate the integration of church and state...? I'm not sure I follow.

I'm kinda lost on this one too.

Although, yes, Americans are very religious, or spiritual or whatever you'd like to call it.

 

[bullets]

The constitution was written without the seperation i believe. either way it doesn't belong there. i think we should have a moral code but not be assigned to a certain deity.

 

[CorpusBlack]

you can't pick and choose what part of the bible you want to follow because it suits your agenda.

Hence the innumerable denominations in Christianity.

 

[cerealkiller182]

don't they all consider the bible infallible?

lets just get rid of religion altogether. that would be nice.

 

[wiegeabo]

I've always thought that religion (whichever you believe) should be taught at home/church/temple/any other private places. If you believe it will make you and your children better people, that's fine. It should be your choice to believe in whatever you want to believe in and follow your chosen faith.

But church has to be separate from state because, firstly, the US is founded on, among other things, the freedom of religion. If government/schools/public offices support any particular faith, then it's potentially impinging on the freedom of all the other faiths. Secondly, how can government choose which religion is 'correct'? What right does it have to impose a certain faith on people? What if the government backs the 'wrong' religion? Doesn't that mean it condemns us all when those who would have otherwise believed in the 'right' religion would have been saved?

(Please note the quotes around right and wrong because I don't know if there is a right or wrong religion, if they're all right or wrong, or what a right or wrong religion may be.)

 

[bullets]

religion will always exist. there is no way to get rid of it . people are born with the notion a greater power may exist.

 

[cerealkiller182]

religion will always exist. there is no way to get rid of it . people are born with the notion a greater power may exist.

I believe in a greater power but i don't believe in organized religion

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I dont care for organized religion.... and I truly believe in the separation of church and state and hope one day it will finally happen.

Here's what pisses me off about Christianity.. and yes for the most part... im christian... well i believe in jesus.. and teachings but its complicated, i kinda take in a bit from all religions.. i'm more spiritual then religious.

any who.. I hate the fact i have to pass billboards all the time screaming about "our savior jesus" etc... why? because i find it very disrespectful to other religions. you don't see Buddha billboards all over the place, or any other religious counterpart.. yeah, i get Christianity is the most popular, but i highly doubt jesus would want it slammed down other throats.

i hate how i can't walk in tourist areas, because christians are running around stopping you asking you what you believe in and trying to get you to sign up with them

and i can't stand that I can't get married because "christians" think Christianity came up with marriage soo since most don't believe 2 men together are sinful, i cant get married.

people need to learn to seperate what effects others from there religion. It's called respect.

 

[Joker]

There should be Buddah billboards everywhere...like...a billboard of Buddah eating a sub sandwhich. That would be awesome. They should also make a billboard of that dogs playing poker painting, but with religious figures heads photoshoped over the dogs heads...just for s**ts and giggles...

 

[cerealkiller182]

I dont care for organized religion.... and I truly believe in the separation of church and state and hope one day it will finally happen.

Here's what pisses me off about Christianity.. and yes for the most part... im christian... well i believe in jesus.. and teachings but its complicated, i kinda take in a bit from all religions.. i'm more spiritual then religious.

any who.. I hate the fact i have to pass billboards all the time screaming about "our savior jesus" etc... why? because i find it very disrespectful to other religions. you don't see Buddha billboards all over the place, or any other religious counterpart.. yeah, i get Christianity is the most popular, but i highly doubt jesus would want it slammed down other throats.

i hate how i can't walk in tourist areas, because christians are running around stopping you asking you what you believe in and trying to get you to sign up with them

and i can't stand that I can't get married because "christians" think Christianity came up with marriage soo since most don't believe 2 men together are sinful, i cant get married.

people need to learn to seperate what effects others from there religion. It's called respect.

This is a good point. The problem is religion is ethnocentric by nature. To be religious is to believe that your way is the best way,which is arrogant and ignorant. For some reason Christians are so much active/motivated in getting their message out

 

[spideyboy_1111]

This is a good point. The problem is religion is ethnocentric by nature. To be religious is to believe that your way is the best way,which is arrogant and ignorant. For some reason Christians are so much active/motivated in getting their message out

thats because they translated a message wrong...

there excuse is "the bible says to spread the lords message" which is why they had priests and missionary's shove it down indigenous tribes throats etc... and still do it to everyone else today... almost by force and fear that if the world doesn't believe then there all going to bad place.

when i truly believe jesus would have not wanted this force nor arrogance. just a message of a warm heart and carrying person and one who follows all the good and teachings. Not force or arrogance at all... Jesus even demanded he not be worshiped, nor buildings built in his name... i guess most christians arn't very good listeners.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

This is a good point. The problem is religion is ethnocentric by nature. To be religious is to believe that your way is the best way,which is arrogant and ignorant. For some reason Christians are so much active/motivated in getting their message out

o and also... the only 2 religions i know of at least that use force and the "my religion is the one true one" seems to be christian beliefs and islamic... (sorry if i got the islamic one wrong, but buhdism and hinduism are both very peaceful and seem to care less about being right or not