Civil War feels like a gimmick.

[Kotagg]

This discussion is silly, Nategray. Study up on the basics of Fantasy and SciFi writing, and you'll see that an established real-world connection is what makes any comic book or written fantastic work appealing to people. The idea of superheroe comics in the first place were sort of a "what if this happened in the real world?"

Logically, there are some things that just don't happen in real life, like these people with their powers. There are also slip-ups in the writing where a comic book writer wrote some physics wrong. However, these things do not detract from the fact that comics are based upon the real world, and thus real world logic and natural laws apply.

Here's some food for thought. Anyone who goes to a fantasy-writing workshop is told this near the beginning: "In your fantasy setting that is based off of the real world, an established natural law is required. The easiest and most effective way of doing this is having everything work normally, EXCEPTING that which you specifically clarify as working differently."

Think on that, because that's how Marvel works.

 

[NateGray]

This discussion is silly, Nategray. Study up on the basics of Fantasy and SciFi writing, and you'll see that an established real-world connection is what makes any comic book or written fantastic work appealing to people. The idea of superheroe comics in the first place were sort of a "what if this happened in the real world?"

Logically, there are some things that just don't happen in real life, like these people with their powers. There are also slip-ups in the writing where a comic book writer wrote some physics wrong. However, these things do not detract from the fact that comics are based upon the real world, and thus real world logic and natural laws apply.

Here's some food for thought. Anyone who goes to a fantasy-writing workshop is told this near the beginning: "In your fantasy setting that is based off of the real world, an established natural law is required. The easiest and most effective way of doing this is having everything work normally, EXCEPTING that which you specifically clarify as working differently."

Think on that, because that's how Marvel works.

I do not agree with that.
The only fact is there are no super powered people in the real world.

I do understand what you are saying and again this is just my opinion and since I am not going to be a writer any time soon well I will just stick to what I believe and you can just tell me I am wrong

I am sorry to have sidetracked this thread I will quietly slink away now since I see most do not agree with me and let the thread hopefully get back on track.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I wasn't talking to you sir it was nate grey who made that bizarre statment about nothing in the real world applying to the mu.

I was backing you up; I know you're unaccustomed to it.

 

[gildea]

I was backing you up; I know you're unaccustomed to it.

Cripes so you where!!
I must be getting paranoid in my old age

 

[Chris Wallace]

Re-read the post, huh?

 

[Chris Wallace]

did GG take pics and post them on the internet???

No, but Bats doesn't wonder if he inadvertantly killed Barbara while trying to save her.
Joker's actions were more brutal, although some could argue that GG's consequences were just as brutal.

 

[Mrh7448]

Again, I'm not saying whether or not the heroes COULD be free to regulate/police themselves, having completed said training. I'm saying they wouldn't be. When I was in Marine Boot Camp my drill instructor told me that by the time I laced up my first pair of boots, the government had spent about $100,000,000 on me, & they wanted a return on their investment. Do you think they'd do differently w/the costumed set?

That example doesn't really work for me. The heroes would still be accountable to the laws they are supposed to uphold.

If the trainig facilities were run by the government then yes they would want heroes to work for them. If schools were privatized a la Xavier's institute with a set curriculum that's been government approved then the government hasn't spent the resources to train individuals merely money to come up with a course curriculum.

Government would have to inspect and approve different facilities and in the end the students would have to go through courses set up to test individuals.

This would mean the government would not have had to pool resources to train anyone, hell they could even use heroes already in their employ to set things up.

 

[stillanerd]

Training superheroes is a good idea...forcing them to train is not. It should be their choice. This is where the Avengers come in. Every superhero becomes a member of the Avengers and registered but they dont have to be a part of the primary strike force. That way the solo heroes can still be solo if they want and the superheroes police themselves.

I believe that this may be the idea Civil War may be trying to get across as to why Captain America is opposed to registration, because the act makes them accountable to S.H.I.E.L.D. and to S.H.I.E.L.D. alone, not whoever the registered hero chooses to work for. However, to add to the confussion, I asked Tom Brevoot on the CBR forums this question:

does the SHRA state that upon registering, the superhero has to work for S.H.I.E.L.D. and no one else, or can the registered superhero work for anyone he or she wants to?

His response:

A Registered and Licensed super hero can work for anybody, so long as that work is in the public interest. (They couldn't work for the Maggia, for instance.) But SHIELD is the organization that's currently in charge of Registering and Licensing super heroes.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3418391&postcount=685

Which leaves me to wonder where is the possible violation of the heroes "Civil Liberties?" Does it have to do with being forced into public service and what if the hero doesn't want to serve the public? Does it mean that even if the hero works for another group such as the FBI, their local police department, or even a security guard at Microsoft, they still fall under the jurisdiction for S.H.I.E.L.D. and not the organization they've lent their services towards and been hired by? Does it mean that in order to continue to be a hero, they have to be a reserve agent for S.H.I.E.L.D. sort of like the army reservist? Does it come down to the hero wanting to choice to decide for themselves who to be accountable towards, because what if that means "I'm only going to be accountable to myself." Because if it's that, that would mean that Captain America is advocating vigilantism which is woefully out of character for him.

There has been a constant theme that becoming more apparent in Civil War and subsequent tie-ins, in that just because something is legal doesn't make it right (which of course means that the anti-registration side is the correct position for that reason because while the pro-registration side may be LEGALLY RIGHT, they are MORALLY WRONG, at least according to Marvel) but why are they right? Is it because the act has forced them to fight amongst themselves instead of going after the super-villains? Is it because rather than stopping violence it's actually creating more? If you think about it, it's becoming clear that the SHRA is nothing more than a McGuffin, just a big excuse for the heroes to start pounding away at each other. Except, fo course, one of the selling point Marvel made was that the series was supposed to be more than that and be "politically relevant." Course they also claimed there was "no right or wrong side in Civil War" and it's pretty obvious now what side they've been supporting.

 

[roach]

Is it because rather than stopping violence it's actually creating more? If you think about it, it's becoming clear that the SHRA is nothing more than a McGuffin, just a big excuse for the heroes to start pounding away at each other. Except, fo course, one of the selling point Marvel made was that the series was supposed to be more than that and be "politically relevant." Course they also claimed there was "no right or wrong side in Civil War" and it's pretty obvious now what side they've been supporting.

In my mind as soon as Tony and Steve found out about the massacre they would have gotten together to figure out what's the heroes response was gonna be. Hell in fact I cant see how Congress had hearings on the Superheroes without calling to testify America's Greatest Hero Captain America. This should have been heroes vs the government instead of the slugfest. Yes heroes fighting heroes is a staple of comics but it is a stupid one.

 

[gildea]

In my mind as soon as Tony and Steve found out about the massacre they would have gotten together to figure out what's the heroes response was gonna be. Hell in fact I cant see how Congress had hearings on the Superheroes without calling to testify America's Greatest Hero Captain America. This should have been heroes vs the government instead of the slugfest. Yes heroes fighting heroes is a staple of comics but it is a stupid one.

See if bendis was writing the even we would have had pages and pages of talking heads in congress

 

[roach]

See if bendis was writing the even we would have had pages and pages of talking heads in congress

well with there being so much confusion on just what the SHRA is about I wouldnt actually mind seeing this......

 

[Mrh7448]

It didn't have to be stupid, it would have happened even if it had been government vs. heroes.

It just seems that some of the people on either side seems kind of arbitrary.

I could always see Stark siding with the government, he's a businessman, and government would be good for his business. Imagine if he had a contract to develop weapons and armor to bring in the heroes.

It sounds like there should have been a bigger build up than what there was.

 

[Chris Wallace]

That example doesn't really work for me. The heroes would still be accountable to the laws they are supposed to uphold.

If the trainig facilities were run by the government then yes they would want heroes to work for them. If schools were privatized a la Xavier's institute with a set curriculum that's been government approved then the government hasn't spent the resources to train individuals merely money to come up with a course curriculum.

Government would have to inspect and approve different facilities and in the end the students would have to go through courses set up to test individuals.

This would mean the government would not have had to pool resources to train anyone, hell they could even use heroes already in their employ to set things up.

See, this is my problem w/the RA. You & the pro-regs keep saying "accountability"; I keep hearing "control".
The whole point of superheroes is that they can do what the cops can't. Again, if they all just became tools of the government it would take all the fun out of comics.

 

[Doc Destruction]

It sounds like there should have been a bigger build up than what there was.

Now where have I heard that before?

 

[Chris Wallace]

well with there being so much confusion on just what the SHRA is about I wouldnt actually mind seeing this......

Me neither.
Bendis gets that there's more to comics than guys in colorful outfits slapping & zapping each other. WE get to see the thought processes behind people's actions, & it makes sense. This-what we have now-is confusing. If you don't read any of the continuity tie-in books you have no clue what the players think or why.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I miss guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping each other.

 

[roach]

Me neither.
Bendis gets that there's more to comics than guys in colorful outfits slapping & zapping each other. WE get to see the thought processes behind people's actions, & it makes sense. This-what we have now-is confusing. If you don't read any of the continuity tie-in books you have no clue what the players think or why.

Not only do you see people's views but we can see what the actual SHRA actually states....do Registered heroes have to work for the government?????
What is the penalty for unregistered heroing????

 

[stillanerd]

^^^^
Exactly. How is there supposed to be a debate on the merits of the SHRA if we don't really know the details (and no, it doesn't have to be a 800 page "congressional report"). Otherwise, it's not important what the act is, only that heroes are fighting each other...nevermind WHY exactly, but hey, as long as it sells, right?

I miss guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping each other.

Or to be more precise, good guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping bad guys in colorful outfits and vise-versa. Good guys slapping and zapping other good guys becomes nothing more than a pissing contest--kind of like DC vs. Marvel.

 

[roach]

I miss guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping each other.

i miss guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping supervillains.

 

[Mrh7448]

See, this is my problem w/the RA. You & the pro-regs keep saying "accountability"; I keep hearing "control".
The whole point of superheroes is that they can do what the cops can't. Again, if they all just became tools of the government it would take all the fun out of comics.

Accountability doesn't mean control. It means they need to be accountable for their actions.

Hell most of what I've said would be more real world than M.U. But Marvel opened up a can of worms when they started this, if they're going to go the regulation route they should at least do it so it makes sense.

Heroes should be as accountable for their actions as normal people. Punisher goes around killing criminals and they try to arrest him for it, which is what should happen. If Spiderman did the same(not that he would) then he should also be held accountable.

These heroes cause how much money in property damage and yet nobody bats an eye, doesn't make much sense especially if you introduce a storyline like this with registration.

The way I see it the only way to end is to have training schools for heroes, that would not end up under government control but more like licensed bounty hunters. They'd all have to maintain an liability insurance policiy against property damage and civilains getting hurt. But again that's getting into a much more real world dynamic.

I understand your point about how getting into the dynamics of becoming a superhero would get bogged down and somewhat boring. Especially if everyone is under government control.

 

[Doc Destruction]

i miss guys in colorful outfits slapping and zapping supervillains.

Exactly. I read comics to escape real life situations. I don't want to read superhero stories about politics and litigation.

 

[Darthphere]

Exactly. I read comics to escape real life situations. I don't want to read superhero stories about politics and litigation.

Then dont.


Ill have plenty of fun reading Civil War and Checkmate among others.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Way to miss the point, ya goof.

 

[Darthphere]

Way to miss the point, ya goof.

No, I didnt miss the point at all. Just dont read them then if you dont like 'em. That easy.

 

[Doc Destruction]

The point is that I would LOVE to read some good old beat-em-up stories with my favorite characters, but I can't right now because they're up to their ass in red tape and politics.