Conan

[Nivek]

I always pictured Cimmerians as more eastern European/ Russian types, not as Celts or Gauls. Howard had synonyms for those cultures, and Cimmerians were a whole breed to themselves. People could identify them because they had a unique look.

Still, I sure hope some will reserve judgment till the first in costume pictures. Given some of the Stargate stuff i've seen, I already know he can handle more dialoge than Arnold did, and look physically imposing without 'roiding out.

 

[T'Jai]

On the Caucasian side he is German-Irish that is about as close to Cimmerian as you could hope for...

 

[nephron]

Nephron, I think you're being too obsesive with details. At least wait until you see an official picture of him as Conan, and then by all means give him hell if he does not meet your expectations. Seriously!!

Maybe I am being too obsessive over the details. That's a distinct possibility, but the Conan stories are my all-time favorite stories. I've been a fan of them since I was a little kid. And I've been eagerly awaiting a real Conan movie that whole time - there hasn't been one yet. I'm sure some of the people on this site know what that's like.

So perhaps I am being overly concerned with the details, but maybe I'm not...maybe it does matter that this guy actually bear some resemblance to the character Howard wrote about. Otherwise, why even bother to call the movie "Conan"?

Seriously...before we decide whether or not I'm being overly concerned with the details, answer these questions:

What would you think if they cast Brad Pitt as T'Challa the Black Panther?

Or how about if they cast Jason Statham as Shang Chi?

Or Denzel Washington as William Wallace?

Or Steven Seagal as Miyamoto Mushashi?

If you can honestly say none of those casting decisions would have any effect on your suspension-of-disbelief, well, then I guess I'm being overly concerned with the details.

 

[nephron]

where are those pics from like 7 years ago lol

It was all I could find of him without the dreds or the beard. Find something newer sans all-that-hair and surprise me.

 

[rogue trooper]

Maybe I am being too obsessive over the details. That's a distinct possibility, but the Conan stories are my all-time favorite stories. I've been a fan of them since I was a little kid. And I've been eagerly awaiting a real Conan movie that whole time - there hasn't been one yet. I'm sure some of the people on this site know what that's like.

So perhaps I am being overly concerned with the details, but maybe I'm not...maybe it does matter that this guy actually bear some resemblance to the character Howard wrote about. Otherwise, why even bother to call the movie "Conan"?

Seriously...before we decide whether or not I'm being overly concerned with the details, answer these questions:

What would you think if they cast Brad Pitt as T'Challa the Black Panther?

Or how about if they cast Jason Statham as Shang Chi?

Or Denzel Washington as William Wallace?

Or Steven Seagal as Miyamoto Mushashi?

If you can honestly say none of those casting decisions would have any effect on your suspension-of-disbelief, well, then I guess I'm being overly concerned with the details.

I've also been a fan of Conan since I was a child. I dicovered him with the movies, then on the Marvel Comics, and then the novels.

I guess, unlike you, I see Momoa as "quite caucasian" overall, but that's me. That's why I have no problem with him as Conan.

 

[T'Jai]

Maybe I am being too obsessive over the details. That's a distinct possibility, but the Conan stories are my all-time favorite stories. I've been a fan of them since I was a little kid. And I've been eagerly awaiting a real Conan movie that whole time - there hasn't been one yet. I'm sure some of the people on this site know what that's like.

So perhaps I am being overly concerned with the details, but maybe I'm not...maybe it does matter that this guy actually bear some resemblance to the character Howard wrote about. Otherwise, why even bother to call the movie "Conan"?

Seriously...before we decide whether or not I'm being overly concerned with the details, answer these questions:

What would you think if they cast Brad Pitt as T'Challa the Black Panther?

Or how about if they cast Jason Statham as Shang Chi?

Or Denzel Washington as William Wallace?

Or Steven Seagal as Miyamoto Mushashi?

If you can honestly say none of those casting decisions would have any effect on your suspension-of-disbelief, well, then I guess I'm being overly concerned with the details.

none of those guys is mixed hit us with a guy that is at least half the ethnicity he is supposed to be portraying. Quite often in Hollywood Multi-ethnic Actors play singlely-ethnic roles. that is the basis of my confusion on your vehemence...

 

[rogue trooper]

It was all I could find of him without the dreds or the beard. Find something newer sans all-that-hair and surprise me.

On the previous page I posted two pictures. Check em' out.

 

[BestGirl]

Not really.

The dude is a handsome fella, there's no question about that.

But he's not mean-looking.

Not scary, or dangerous looking.

And he's clearly not Gaelic-looking. At all.

I think he does look pretty Caucasian in those pictures, especially the last two, but if you don't think so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[nephron]

I always pictured Cimmerians as more eastern European/ Russian types, not as Celts or Gauls.

According to Howard, Cimmerians are Gaels. Rather, the Gaels are the pure-blooded descendants of the Cimmerians.

Howard had synonyms for those cultures, and Cimmerians were a whole breed to themselves. People could identify them because they had a unique look.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean there. "Howard had synonyms for those cultures" What do you mean? In his stories, the Cimmerians were always called the Cimmerians. I suppose you could say they had a unique look, but Howard was very clear on what that look is, and Momoa doesn't have it. At all. Honestly...if you saw Momoa walking down the street, & someone asked you what you thought his heritage was, would you, in a million years, say he looked like his family could be from Scotland or Ireland? Of course not. That's why he's no good as Conan. (He should make an awesome Khal Drogo though.

Still, I sure hope some will reserve judgment till the first in costume pictures. Given some of the Stargate stuff i've seen, I already know he can handle more dialoge than Arnold did, and look physically imposing without 'roiding out.

Maybe once they put a wig, blue contacts, and do some serious makeup magic, he might work, but that seems unnecessary to me when they could have just hired a guy who looks like Conan in the first place.

BTW, before I start sounding like a "Momoa-hater", I think he'll be an awesome Khal Drogo in the "Game of Thrones"-HBO-series, just an absurd choice for Conan. I'm really looking forward to that show - the d-bags in charge of this Conan movie clearly have ZERO respect for the source material (they're not using any of it), but with Game of Thrones, George RR Martin himself is helping with the production. It bodes well. It's a crazy contrast between the Conan movie & Game of Thrones....it's as if the GoT people actually care about the source material. Weird....

For those who've never read Game of Thrones, I couldn't heap enough praise upon it.

 

[nephron]

none of those guys is mixed hit us with a guy that is at least half the ethnicity he is supposed to be portraying. Quite often in Hollywood Multi-ethnic Actors play singlely-ethnic roles. that is the basis of my confusion on your vehemence...

Here's the litmus test:

If you saw Momoa walking down the street, and someone asked you what you thought his heritage was, would you think "Probably pure Scottish or Irish.".
Of course you wouldn't. That right there disqualifies him as Conan. Sorry.
Conan is one of those characters for whom his race does matter. Same as Crazy Horse, Malcolm X, Muhammed Ali, Boudica, or Julius Caesar.


Here's some other physical disqualifiers, and they're no more and no less important:

He's not big enough and he's in no way dangerous or scary looking.

 

[rogue trooper]

Honestly...if you saw Momoa walking down the street, & someone asked you what you thought his heritage was, would you, in a million years, say he looked like his family could be from Scotland or Ireland?

In all honesty, yes, I could wonder if maybe he's from one of those two. In this day and age there's more ethnicity in those countries.

...and as I've said, to me he does look caucasian. Just like Billy Zane.

 

[rogue trooper]

He's not big enough and he's in no way dangerous or scary looking.

Before he was cast as Wolverine in the first X-Men, I seriously doubt you would have seen Hugh Jackman and say "that should be Wolverine". Jackman is tall, Wolverine should be very short. Jackman is very handsome, Wolverine should be more fascinatingly ugly like Mickey Rourke,`Charles Bronson, or Tommy Lee Jones. Wolverine should also be scary-looking or deeply intense. Jackman looks like the world's nicest being. And yet, Jackman pulled it off. So let's give Momoa the chance.

 

[nephron]

In all honesty, yes, I could wonder if maybe he's from one of those two. In this day and age there's more ethnicity in those countries.

...and as I've said, to me he does look caucasian. Just like Billy Zane.

Yes, in this day and age there are. But, again, modern pure-blooded Gaelic people are supposed to be the direct descendants of the Cimmerians. And Momoa in no way resembles a Gael. Really, he looks like a pretty Pacific Islander, or maybe half-white/half-islander...'cuz that's what he is.

Just an absurd choice for Conan. He's way too pretty, not mean-looking at all, and is the wrong ethinicity to play a Gaelic character. It doesn't make any sense....but then, this goofy movie hasn't made much sense from day one. Don't even get me started on the script....

 

[Nivek]

You mentioned Billy Zane.

 

[Asgard]

Why do you keep saying hes the wrong ethnicity.

Just be real and say he doesnt look white enough.

 

[RockSP]

Here's the litmus test:

If you saw Momoa walking down the street, and someone asked you what you thought his heritage was, would you think "Probably pure Scottish or Irish.".
Of course you wouldn't. That right there disqualifies him as Conan. Sorry.
Conan is one of those characters for whom his race does matter. Same as Crazy Horse, Malcolm X, Muhammed Ali, Boudica, or Julius Caesar.

Oh boy. Not more of this. Could you at least use other fictional characters when doing the race comparison thing? Conan isn't real.

 

[terry78]

LOL, they always use real life characters when citing examples.

 

[rogue trooper]

You mentioned Billy Zane.

Zane is somewhat ethnic-looking, like Momoa, but nothing that prevented him from playing The Phantom. Mind you, this is strictly for the benefit of "nephron".

 

[nephron]

Oh boy. Not more of this. Could you at least use other fictional characters when doing the race comparison thing? Conan isn't real.

I couldn't think of any, (maybe you can), but what difference does that make in the context of the discussion? The point is that there are some characters for whom their ethnicity plays a key role in how they fit into and relate to the world. For most characters, race doesn't matter one bit. If they were to remake, say, Terminator, and change Kyle Reese's ethnicity, it totally wouldn't matter. But, lets say they made a Luke Cage flick. Luke Cage's ethnicity is an important aspect of the character - it matters. Conan's the same way. His ethnic status as a Cimmerian is a fundamental and key component to how Conan interacts with his world, and how others view him. It's important to the character.

Yeah, I guess you could say "It's all fantasy anyway so what difference does it make?", but that's a lame cop-out, and we all know it. Especially on this site. My feeling is, if you're going to make a Conan movie, you should make a movie about Conan as his creator intended. That includes being faithful to the details, one of which is his ethnicity. "Conan" is a Gaelic name, for chrissakes.

But, it's not as if this production has anything to do with Howard in any way. Casting a Hawaain as a Cimmerian is but one of the many, many ways they've ignored Howard & totally pissed on his work.

This is not a movie about Conan.

They've completely ignored Howard's central theme of Civilization vs. Barbarism.

The story for this movie is completely original (and bad), and is in no way based on any of Howards stories.

They've totally altered Conan's origin.

They've got the Cimmerians getting conquered & killed, leaving Conan "the last of his kind", even though Howard says (of the Cimmerians) "They were never conquered".

They've changed the geographic details of Hyboria.

They've changed Conan's fundamental motivation.

They've changed Conan's basic personality.

And now they've cast a Pacific Islander to play a Cimmerian.

 

[nephron]

Why do you keep saying hes the wrong ethnicity.

Just be real and say he doesnt look white enough.

People here are sensitive, but Ok. Conan's a Cimmerian. Cimmerians are white. Momoa's not white. Case closed.

 

[Nivek]

Where did Howard describe Conans ethnicity. Please note specific examples, there is plenty of online reference material.

I remember descriptions of his features, including his skin. and it was always mentioned as sun darkened. IMO this guy fit's the bill, given his complexion. Personally, after we see some costume pics, then we can start worrying about more important things, like another "last Cimmerian" storyline again.

 

[nephron]

Maybe this will help make my point:

There's got to be a few Japan-o-philes in amongst the people here. Where are ya at? Speak up! I'm talking about the people who think Samurai's are cool, love Kurosawa movies, maybe even speak a little Japanese, and are fascinated with the people and culture.

That's how Robert E. Howard felt about the Celts. He was a Celt-o-phile. Most of his heroes were Irish, and he made kind of big deal about it. Conan's yet another of his Irish heroes, albeit set up in a fantasy setting. Regardless of the Hyborian age being fictional, the Cimmerians are Celts, and Conan the Cimmerian was just another vehicle for Howard to indulge in his enthusiasm for the Celtic people and culture.

Now, my Japan-o-phile friends...what would you think about a movie set in feudal Japan, or even a fictional analogue of feudal Japan, that didn't care about the details? Not only did our imaginary film get the costumes, weaponry, and architecture all wrong, they didn't even hire a Japanese actor for the lead? Could you maintain suspension of disbelief?

 

[nephron]

Where did Howard describe Conans ethnicity. Please note specific examples, there is plenty of online reference material.

I remember descriptions of his features, including his skin. and it was always mentioned as sun darkened. IMO this guy fit's the bill, given his complexion. Personally, after we see some costume pics, then we can start worrying about more important things, like another "last Cimmerian" storyline again.

I just posted this, but I guess it bears repeating. This is an excerpt from "They Hyborian Age", and essay Howard wrote detailing the history of the various races in the Conan stories....

"They came into these countries as Aryans. But there were variations among these primitive Aryans, some of which are still recognized today, others which have long been forgotten. The blond Achaians, Gauls and Britons, for instance, were descendants of pure-blooded AEsir. The Nemedians of Irish legendry were the Nemedian AEsir. The Danes were descendants of pure-blooded Vanir; the Goths--ancestors of the other Scandinavian and Germanic tribes, including the Anglo-Saxons--were descendants of a mixed race whose elements contained Vanir, AEsir and Cimmerian strains. The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans. The Cymric tribes of Britain were a mixed Nordic-Cimmerian race which preceded the purely Nordic Britons into the isles, and thus gave rise to a legend of Gaelic priority. The Cimbri who fought Rome were of the same blood, as well as the Gimmerai of the Assyrians and Grecians, and Gomer of the Hebrews. Other clans of the Cimmerians adventured east of the drying inland sea, and a few centuries later mixed with Hyrkanian blood, returned westward as Scythians. The original ancestors of the Gaels gave their name to modern Crimea."
Robert E. Howard - The Hyborian Age

There's all sorts of other example, but that's about as cut-and-dried as you can get. The Cimmerians are Gaels, and Gaels are Cimmerians. Conan's racial status as a Cimmerian was an important part of the character, and Howard demonstrates that time and time again, in a myriad of ways, throughout the stories...."Conan" is even a Celtic name.

 

[Project862006]

it is not like momoa is black he is Hawaiian

 

[Asgard]

So if they cast a white guy who's not Irish in the least youd still be angry too right?