Conan

[nephron]

Rubbish. You think that you know, but but not really. Here, I'll help with the short versions. Ok, here we go. Robert E. Howard opens in "The Hyborian Age":

"Nothing in this article is to be considered as an attempt to advance any theory in opposition to accepted history. It is simply a fictional background for a series of fiction-stories. When I began writing the Conan stories a few years ago, I prepared this 'history' of his age and the peoples of that age, in order to lend him and his sagas a greater aspect of realness. And I found that by adhering to the 'facts' and spirit of that history, in writing the stories , it was easier to visualize (and therefore to present) him as a real flesh-and-blood character rather than a ready-made product. In writing about him and his adventures in the various kingdoms of his Age, I have never violated the 'facts' or spirit of the 'history' here set down, but have followed the lines of that history as closely as the writer of actual historical-fiction follows the lines of actual history. I have used this 'history' as a guide in all the stories in this series that I have written."

And later down at the end of it:

"They came into these countries as Aryans. But there were variations among these primitive Aryans, some of which are still recognized today, others which have long been forgotten. The blond Achaians, Gauls and Britons, for instance, were descendants of pure-blooded AEsir. The Nemedians of Irish legendry were the Nemedian AEsir. The Danes were descendants of pure-blooded Vanir; the Goths--ancestors of the other Scandinavian and Germanic tribes, including the Anglo-Saxons--were descendants of a mixed race whose elements contained Vanir, AEsir and Cimmerian strains. The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans. The Cymric tribes of Britain were a mixed Nordic-Cimmerian race which preceded the purely Nordic Britons into the isles, and thus gave rise to a legend of Gaelic priority. The Cimbri who fought Rome were of the same blood, as well as the Gimmerai of the Assyrians and Grecians, and Gomer of the Hebrews. Other clans of the Cimmerians adventured east of the drying inland sea, and a few centuries later mixed with Hyrkanian blood, returned westward as Scythians. The original ancestors of the Gaels gave their name to modern Crimea."

Robert E. Howard also wrote:

"If I present a character out of keeping with my impressions of the time and place, I lose my sense of reality, and my characters cease to be living and vital things; and my stories center entirely on my conceptions of my characters. Once I lose the "feel" of my characters, I might as well tear up what I have written. And once I have a definite conception of a character in my mind, it destroys the feeling of reality to have that individual act in any manner inconsistent with the character in which I have visualized him. My characters do and say illogical and inconsistent things -- inconsistent as far as general things go -- but they are consistent to my conception of them."
Robert E. Howard - The Last Celt

And you are still telling me the casting is spot on? Either you just like to talk or you don't have a clue about what you are trying to sound intelligent about. Research first.

Finally...someone who actually knows something about Conan besides the comic books and that silly movie.

Preach on brother.

 

[Nivek]

And you completely dodged the question. I wasn't talking about Nick Fury or Kingpin. I asked you about the Black Panther.

I'll ask again:

Black Panther is a fictional character, a member of a fictional people, and king of a fictional country. Would it make any sense if someone who wasn't a black guy was cast as the Black Panther?

Oh, your one of THOSE. So, your arguing over Conan not being white enough, but you just throw off longstanding ethnicity of Kingpin and Nick Fury. Nice.

And I have not really responded to the Black Panther thing since IMO it is a stupid comparison, since his country is firmly placed in a modern Africa, where Conan is thousands of years ago in a pre-history/ pre-catoclysim Omni-Continental Europe/Asia.

But what the Hell, is it a white guy playing T'chilla, or is it going to be one of those Phantom/ Tarzan things?

 

[Amra the Lion]

Well, as has been stated, Cimmerians have a certain look to them that made them stand out in other lands. Usually, it was described as dark sun leathered skin, piercing eyes, dark hair, and panther like physicality.

Wrong Nivek. It was Conan that had that "Dark sun leathered skin, piercing eyes, dark hair", etc. Conan was the only Cimmerian that he featured in any of his stories. His skin tone was not due to genetics but rather exposure to the southern climates. Robert E. Howard was very clear on what Conan and the Cimmerians looked like.

 

[Nivek]

Going by art I've seen for years, man. Including the Dark Horse stuff.

 

[BlackLantern]

if people are this cranky about Conan, I could only wonder what would have happened if someone "not caucasian" was cast as Tony Stark or Bruce Banner

Im learning a lot about the fandom due to this

 

[Amra the Lion]

To argue that Conan is a Gaelic hero and must be played by a "white-skinned" caucasian actor is like saying a wooly Mammoth is the same thing a modern elephant because one is obviously descendant from the other.

"The Cimmerian knew he was the only white man ever to cross the wilderness that lay between that river and the coast."
Robert E. Howard - The Black Stranger

I was a fan of Stargate Atlantis, I liked Momoa's role. I wish him luck in his endeavors, but I do not think that he is right for this role.

 

[BlackLantern]

so you wish him the best in whatever he does, but he just can't do Conan?? ive heard statements like that before from people regarding what other people should or shouldn't be doing

 

[nephron]

Oh, your one of THOSE. So, your arguing over Conan not being white enough, but you just throw off longstanding ethnicity of Kingpin and Nick Fury. Nice.

And I have not really responded to the Black Panther thing since IMO it is a stupid comparison, since his country is firmly placed in a modern Africa, where Conan is thousands of years ago in a pre-history/ pre-catoclysim Omni-Continental Europe/Asia.

But what the Hell, is it a white guy playing T'chilla, or is it going to be one of those Phantom/ Tarzan things?

How can I be any clearer?

With most characters, their ethnicity is arbitrary. It has nothing to with who they are or their role in a story. It's arbitrary.

Nick Fury is in no way defined by his ethnic heritage. That's not what's important about the character. Never has been. Kingpins's the same way. Most characters are like that.

But there's a few for whom their racial background is an important part of the character. Like Shaft. Or Robin Hood.

If recongnizing this distinction makes me one of "THOSE", then I guess that's what I am.

And it's a simple question. The only conditioner to our hypothetical actor is "someone who isn't black." I'll ask it again:

Black Panther is a fictional character, a member of a fictional people, and king of a fictional country. Would it make any sense if someone who wasn't a black guy was cast as the Black Panther?

 

[C. Lee]

Man, I'm getting tired of addressing the same arguments over and over again.

There are some characters for whom their race is a non-issue. Like Kingpin, or Nick Fury.

There are others for whom their race is intrinsic to the character and how that character fits into the world. Like Black Panther, or Shaft, or Tanto, or Conan.

And you completely dodged the question. I wasn't talking about Nick Fury or Kingpin. I asked you about the Black Panther.

I'll ask again:

Black Panther is a fictional character, a member of a fictional people, and king of a fictional country. Would it make any sense if someone who wasn't a black guy was cast as the Black Panther?

I started reading Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos in the mid 60's. He was a white guy in the American Army during World War II. So I personaly see him as a white guy.

I think the Kingpin showed up in the late 60's, maybe early 70's. He was a white guy.....but I really don't care that they changed his race.

T'Challa (aka Black Panther) is a black African prince....to have someone other than a black man play him would be wrong.

 

[Amra the Lion]

so you wish him the best in whatever he does, but he just can't do Conan?? ive heard statements like that before from people regarding what other people should or shouldn't be doing

Me too, and it began with my parents at a very young age. Regarding Conan, there is 70+ years of history of the character. How do you toss that to the wind? Please also refer to my post #700 for further clarification. Nephron aslo has it quoted at the top of this page.

 

[BlackLantern]

the first movies tossed it pretty well

 

[nephron]

Going by art I've seen for years, man. Including the Dark Horse stuff.

Try reading the stories. They're pretty good.

I recommend this edition:

It's all the original stories, pretty much just as Howard wrote them. It includes "The Hyborian Age", story fragments, maps, and all sorts of other miscellany.

 

[Amra the Lion]

the first movies tossed it pretty well

And here and now was their chance to get it right. Instead, they make major foul ups from screenplay to cast. It's a shame the real intelligent, thinking man of action that Conan is will again not make it to the big screen.

 

[BlackLantern]

are you saying that Jason Mamoa couldn't protray Conan as an intelligent character??

 

[x-fan]

Ok I'll give this a shot. Howard said that the Gaels, were ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans. ok, the cimmerians were pure blooded, it don't say the the gaels or scots were, and how many ethical changes occurred or 12000 years due to climate change and inter-breeding?? maybe they had darker skin back then. maybe they had a more ethinic look, who knows. he kind of looks like the pics, my only complaint is that he needs at least 20 pounds of muscle and only has 10 weeks to get there.

 

[nephron]

I started reading Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos in the mid 60's. He was a white guy in the American Army during World War II. So I personaly see him as a white guy.

I think the Kingpin showed up in the late 60's, maybe early 70's. He was a white guy.....but I really don't care that they changed his race.

T'Challa (aka Black Panther) is a black African prince....to have someone other than a black man play him would be wrong.

A reasonable person!

Thank you.

Most people who haven't read the stories doen't realize that Conan is the same type of character as Black Panther, or Robin Hood, in that his racial heritage is inextricably tied to the character.

To have someone other than a black man play T'Challa would be stupid. To have someone other than a white man play Robin Hood or Conan would be just as stupid.

 

[C. Lee]

Nick Fury is in no way defined by his ethnic heritage. That's not what's important about the character.

Nick Fury the comic book character started out as Sgt. Fury in the American Army during World War II. He was in charge of a group of other white (and one black) soldiers, and led them into battle during the war. During World War II, the American Army did not allow blacks to command whites. So to me, his ethnic heritage was defined.

The new "Ultimates" Nick Fury negates the whole WWII experiences of the original Fury. So the ultimates Fury can be either black or white.

 

[Amra the Lion]

are you saying that Jason Mamoa couldn't protray Conan as an intelligent character??

Based on his acting, it's debatable how well he can portray a character. He simply does not fit the role of Conan.

 

[C. Lee]

Try reading the stories. They're pretty good.

I read everything that was published of Howard's in the 70's and 80's.....but haven't re-read them since. I may have to dig out all my old books and go through them.

If you want some funny Howard....read Breckinridge Elkins.

 

[BlackLantern]

Based on his acting, it's debatable how well he can portray a character. He simply does not fit the role of Conan.

because of his ethnicity or his capacity as an actor?? look if you just come out and say "I don't want no ****** playing Conan" I'd at least know where you stand

 

[nephron]

Nick Fury the comic book character started out as Sgt. Fury in the American Army during World War II. He was in charge of a group of other white (and one black) soldiers, and led them into battle during the war. During World War II, the American Army did not allow blacks to command whites. So to me, his ethnic heritage was defined.

The new "Ultimates" Nick Fury negates the whole WWII experiences of the original Fury. So the ultimates Fury can be either black or white.

I can see that, and by that same token this movie is completely rewriting Conan in every way possible. I suppose it'd be accurate to describe what we'll be seeing on screen as "Ulimate Conan". (a misnomer if ever there was one).
Consider:

They're completely ignoring Howard's central theme of Barbarism vs. Civilization.

The story is in no way based on any of Howard's stories.

The supporting cast is wholly original - there are no characters from any of the Conan stories.

They've changed geographic details of Hyboria for no reason.

They've completely failed at capturing the flavor & spirit of Conan's world. Example: They've got goofy, over-the-top stuff in the script like martial-arts temples & mystical Blind Archers.

They've got the Cimmerians all getting slaughtered, leaving Conan as "the last of his kind", despite Howard saying (regarding the Cimmerian) "They were never conquered".

They've completely changed Conan's origin.

They totally altered Conan's basic motivation.

They fundamentally changed Conan's basic personality.

Now they've cast a Hawaiin to play Conan.


If you're not a fan of the original stories, then I guess none of those things bother you that much.

I am a fan of Howard's work though. I'd like to see a Conan movie, not "Ultimate Conan".

 

[Amra the Lion]

because of his ethnicity or his capacity as an actor?? look if you just come out and say "I don't want no ****** playing Conan" I'd at least know where you stand

I assume that you are meaning a very derogatory remark about Black people masked with asterisks? I thought that you understood that Momoa was Hawaiin and German-Irish. I am no racist, nor do I intend to come off as one. But I am a fan of Conan and Robert E. Howard.

 

[BlackLantern]

I assume that you are meaning a very derogatory remark about Black people masked with asterisks? I thought that you understood that Momoa was Hawaiin and German-Irish.

then you assume wrong...I just put that there as a general derogatory term, but you've filled in the blanks quite nicely so I know where you stand now...thanks

and yes, Ive been aware of Momoas heritage since his time on SG: Atlantis

 

[x-fan]

I totally agree with you here though. except the hawiian thing, he is not pure hawiian and he looks pretty white in his newer pics some of them he could pass for scottish or irish at least to me he could.

I can see that, and by that same token this movie is completely rewriting Conan in every way possible. I suppose it'd be accurate to describe what we'll be seeing on screen as "Ulimate Conan". (a misnomer if ever there was one).
Consider:

They're completely ignoring Howard's central theme of Barbarism vs. Civilization.

The story is in no way based on any of Howard's stories.

The supporting cast is wholly original - there are no characters from any of the Conan stories.

They've changed geographic details of Hyboria for no reason.

They've completely failed at capturing the flavor & spirit of Conan's world. Example: They've got goofy, over-the-top stuff in the script like martial-arts temples & mystical Blind Archers.

They've got the Cimmerians all getting slaughtered, leaving Conan as "the last of his kind", despite Howard saying (regarding the Cimmerian) "They were never conquered".

They've completely changed Conan's origin.

They totally altered Conan's basic motivation.

They fundamentally changed Conan's basic personality.

Now they've cast a Hawaiin to play Conan.


If you're not a fan of the original stories, then I guess none of those things bother you that much.

I am a fan of Howard's work though. I'd like to see a Conan movie, not "Ultimate Conan".

 

[Amra the Lion]

then you assume wrong...I just put that there as a general derogatory term, but you've filled in the blanks quite nicely so I know where you stand now...thanks

and yes, Ive been aware of Momoas heritage since his time on SG: Atlantis

You shouldn't use deragotoy terms in general. I don't. It was simple logic that filled in those blanks and you know that. If you have been following Momoa since SGA and know anything about Conan (movies, comics, etc.) then you should know that there is no physical resemblance between the two. Put ethnicity aside.