Craziest Question EVER on the HYPE!

[Phaedrus45]

I finally opened this thread...and, after reading a few of the posts, a "What If" came to mind: OMG! (One More Gay!) In this, Mephisto doesn't destroy Peter Parker and MJ's marriage...Peter comes to MJ and admits he's secretly gay. This, of course, has an opening shot in the first issue of BNG (yep, Brand New Gay) of Peter kissing Harry Osborn. (OMG! I just thought they would then be called "Harry Peter!")

 

[random_havoc]

A few comments regarding Christianity, the Bible, and homosexuality.

1) The only record we have that records the teachings of Christ whatosever is the Bible. Every major branch/sect/denomination (whatever you want to call it) of Christianity has accepted that the Bible is the final authority on spiritual matters. That has always been the official teaching. Sure, some have then done/taught things that hypocritically went against that main belief, but that is and historically always has been the only meaning defining aspect of the Christian faith. For that reason alone anyone who denies that the Bible is the final authority on spiritual matters, or who tries to pick and choose what they believe of it, has no right to call themselves Christians lest they dilute the word into having even less meaning than it already does.

Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make one a Christian any more than my calling myself Italian would make me an Italian. Either you are or you aren't, and the Bible makes it clear that a true follower of Christ (a true Christian) will strive to submit to and obey Jesus' teachings. ALL OF THEM. That's the whole point. If you think you can pick and choose you're making yourself your lord, not Jesus.

2) As for a previous poster's comments regarding language being an issue so far as the Bible's addressing of homosexuality, I received A grades in Koine Greek (the language the new testament was written in), and can assure you that the meaning in key passages of scripture are very clear. It's true they didn't have an exact single word "homosexual", but when the language says "if a man has sex with another man", I'm pretty certain what it means.

3) Homosexuality is universally condemned in the Bible every time it is mentioned, not just in the so-called "barbaric" old testament laws (that's an insulting and culturally arrogant way to refer to it but another issue altogether). Jesus himself defined marriage as intended by God as being between one man and one woman, and since the Bible is even MORE clear that sex is only to take place in a marriage relationship, that makes it pretty obvious homosexual sexual activity is a sin.
But the key passage that is in the New Testament which would states most clearly that it is a sin is Romans chapter 1, specifically verses 26-28.




My concluding thoughts: If you're not willing to acknowledge all of Jesus' teachings as laid out in the Scriptures, at least be honest enough to not call yourselves Christians. Call yourselves the Happy Funtime Love Group for all I care, but you're not a Christian if you don't listen to Jesus Christ, and as I said before the only source that we have for His teachings is in the thousands of ancient copies that we have of the biblical manuscripts. And since Jesus Himself referred to the Scriptures as the fully inspired, fully trustworthy Word of God, it's a take or leave it thing, not a pick and choose thing.

 

[bryanss3]

You can't say christians don't pick and choose. If that was true why isn't there only one form of Christianity? You can believe Jesus Christ is your lord and and not follow everything the bible says and be a "true Christian". The bible isn't a rule book.

 

[iloveclones]

The great part, to me, is that no-one here gets to decide whether or not I'm a Christian. Not their job. Ultimately, it's not even my priest's, but I would abide by any decision he made as far as the church goes.

 

[Sloth7d]

RH. Do you really want to debate this here?
I mean really, do you really want to go at this?
I was only explaning to the guy what justifications
a gay christian would normally put forward
as their interpretation of the scriptures, but if you really want to
debate their justifications, we can.

 

[random_havoc]

You can't say christians don't pick and choose. If that was true why isn't there only one form of Christianity? You can believe Jesus Christ is your lord and and not follow everything the bible says and be a "true Christian". The bible isn't a rule book.

The different sects generally come from differences of opinion on how to interpret different passages, not from picking and choosing.


And, Sloth7d, I'd be pleased to discuss it here, hence why I am

 

[bryanss3]

so RH do you base your morals off what the Bible says or do you base them off what you feel? I'm not knocking religion I just think it's sad that people believe something that isn't wrong in any way is because a book says so.

 

[random_havoc]

so RH do you base your morals off what the Bible says or do you base them off what you feel? I'm not knocking religion I just think it's sad that people believe something that isn't wrong in any way is because a book says so.

I believe that the moral teachings in the Bible are correct.
An absolute authority is NECESSARY in order for morals to really mean anything. For example: if we simply go by 'feelings', then what about sociopaths who don't feel it's wrong to murder? If we go by some sort of societal judging system, then really we can't say the nazis were doing anything wrong by murdering Jews en masse since they're cultural consensus was that it was not only okay but that it was for the good of the world.

As for my feelings, I do feel homosexuality is wrong. Similarly, I feel, just as the Bible teaches, that homosexuals should be treated with love and respect, but that doesn't mean then condoning a sinful lifestyle.

It's also important to note that it is not the sinful inclination that is wrong, it is acting on it. Therefore just as my natural inclinations in life are very much toward anger and violence, I've learned to control myself over the years and not give into those urges. They come naturally to me in this fallen world, but are still sinful.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I doubt there is a person who can follow every thing the bible teaches. Do you eat pork? Shellfish?? Well, Bible says not to do that. Do you believe the Earth is as old as the Bible states?

When studying an text, you have to take into account the time it was written, and who wrote it. This is a 2000 year old text, and the way parents treated their children ... or how men treated women .... is reflected in the Bible's words.

For me, I think of God like a parent; and, I believe those who wrote the Bible did too. For me, a parent is understanding, loving, and accepting of their child. They do not fear their parents, but trust in them.

When I was raised in the strict Christian beliefs, I was raised to fear God and damnation. To me, that's not how I'd ever view my parents. And, that's not how I want my kids to see me.

I find myself to be a very intelligent man. It's not hard to understand that the beliefs I was raised in are a reflection of the society I lived in and the beliefs of my parents. If I was born of different parents or county, I'd most likely been raised to believe in something completely different. As would any other person subscribing to whatever belief or God they worship.

For me, I respect other's beliefs...and, feel that there is something to learn from most all religions. Personally, I found a very enlightening book, called "Conversations With God" that finally spoke to me.

I'm not sure what happens when we die...nobody does. But, if someone can live easier...and, thus die in peace, I respect what they wish to embrace. For me, life is about the acceptance of others (within reason, of course). Even when I became "Born Again" in my teens, almost turning my life to being a Youth Minister, I felt that the church I belonged was more concerned about the damnation of others who don't believe what they did.

Of course, that damnation would soon turn on me. I found my future wife...and, because of that, I was told that I was turning my back on God. Looking back, I see how wrong that was. I have the two most beautiful, wonderful children that I could not imagine in all my life not having. God should be about acceptance and love. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[bryanss3]

I think using sociopaths, murderers, and nazis as a comparisons to homosexuality is ignorant. It's definitely up there with "if you let homosexuals get married whats to stop someone from marrying an animal?" Controlling your violent tendencies isn't anything like controlling who you are attracted to. Its not a mental block or anything. Sticking behind what the Bible says about homosexuality is just sticking behind a belief that things don't change and what wasn't right back then still isn't right today. Its pretty clear things change over time. Homosexuality isn't a crime nor does it hurt anyone, but because God's book says its wrong you agree. You can question or disagree with the master and still be a follower.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Things from the Bible that I would almost guarantee most every Christian doesn't subscribe to:

"The bible says you should kill rebellious children
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

"You should kill adulterers and rape victims
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you."

"Anyone who blaphimies should die.
Leviticus 24:16

16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death."

"Christians who conver to other religions should be put to death
Deuteronomy 13:5-10

5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery."

"Jesus says divorced women should not remarry
Mark10:11

'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another she commits adultery against him'""

"Women cannot teach men
2 Timothy 11-12

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”

"Women may not speak in church
1 Cor 14:33-36

As in all the congregations of the holy ones, 34 let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. 35 If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation."


These laws, shown to be quite ridiculous to most of us, support the notion that they are a reflection of the time the Bible was written. This doesn't even get into the many contraditions in the Bible, of which you can find all over the internet, just by putting in "bible contraditions" in any search engine.

 

[BrianWilly]

The different sects generally come from differences of opinion on how to interpret different passages, not from picking and choosing.

Well that's an awfully generous way of looking at it. Off the top of my head, most Episcopalian Churches allow their priests to be married and for women to be ordained; the Catholic Churches does neither. Those are rather solid divisions to arrive at just from two different "interpretations" of the same book...and we get that just from looking at Episcopal and Catholic, two of the most similar Christian denominations (all things considered). Maybe it doesn't come down to the exact same thing as picking and choosing what passages to follow or not, but you can't claim that different Christians haven't extrapolated very different things from the Bible.

And that's even just on a broad, denominational scale, not individual interpretations. A Christian from even as few as a hundred years ago looking at how you practice today would in all likelihood consider your practices to be wrong. So is he the "real" Christian? Are you the real Christian? How do you quantify that? These are all rhetorical questions to a large degree but, honestly, how come your Christianity is truer than someone else's?

And that's not even touching the whole "literal vs figurative" argument.

 

[iloveclones]

Things from the Bible that I would almost guarantee most every Christian doesn't subscribe to:

"The bible says you should kill rebellious children
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I'm assuming you don't have teenagers

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'm assuming you don't have teenagers

I have one. I have yet to pile up stones in the backyard, though. His 7 year old sister torments him enough that I don't feel the need to punish him.

 

[iloveclones]

^ Girls are worse, by like 10,000%. I wouldn't have believed it, they look so sweet and innocent. But they are really concentrated evil. With hormones.

 

[Sloth7d]

The different sects generally come from differences of opinion on how to interpret different passages,

As I explained earlier. Choosing not to accept the words of future followers preaching things Jesus never commented on, kind of counts. If it isn't the word of their lord, why should a Christian follow it?
Other Gay individuals may follow a different line of logic, using Galations 3:28-29 as a means of inerpretation to vindicate themselves of their life style choice. Whether you agree or not is your decision, but I'm only telling you their logic of thought which doesn't make them any less christian than anyone else.

not from picking and choosing.

All christians pick and choose what passages they follow. I'm 100% certain neither you or any christian would marry your daughter off to her rapist in exchance for 50 shekels as Deut. 22-28-29 says.
I'm positive, that all sane christians work on the sabbath despite it once being a sin punishable by death. Note: the criteria for working the sabbath is very strict. Merely gathering sticks such as Numbers 15:32-36 says. Meaning the act of merely gathering materials for some ambiguous task such as making a fire counts as working on the sabbath.
These are just two of those laws you take offense to me labelling as "barbaric".
I haven't met one christian, gay or straight, who takes any of the laws in the OT seriously. Most of them only go by Jesus' teachings for they interpret Jesus' words of bringing a new covenant with Israel as meaning the old laws have been replaced with the NT's teachings from Jesus.

And this is just concerning the laws of the OT. I won't even delve into the subject of St.Augustine & Genesis or Galileo & Geocentricism.

And, Sloth7d, I'd be pleased to discuss it here, hence why I am

Problem is this discussion wasn't supposed to be about religious interpretation, and I severely hate when politics, culture, or religion derail topics like these.

 

[DACMAN]

I believe that the moral teachings in the Bible are correct.
An absolute authority is NECESSARY in order for morals to really mean anything. For example: if we simply go by 'feelings', then what about sociopaths who don't feel it's wrong to murder? If we go by some sort of societal judging system, then really we can't say the nazis were doing anything wrong by murdering Jews en masse since they're cultural consensus was that it was not only okay but that it was for the good of the world.

As for my feelings, I do feel homosexuality is wrong. Similarly, I feel, just as the Bible teaches, that homosexuals should be treated with love and respect, but that doesn't mean then condoning a sinful lifestyle.

It's also important to note that it is not the sinful inclination that is wrong, it is acting on it. Therefore just as my natural inclinations in life are very much toward anger and violence, I've learned to control myself over the years and not give into those urges. They come naturally to me in this fallen world, but are still sinful.

If it isn't wrong why did you call it a "sinful inclination"? And isn't that saying that lusting isn't wrong? Whether it's for someone of the same sex or not. I thought the Bible was pretty clear that lust, in any form, is wrong outside of marriage.

And I agree with you about an absolute authority. We need a being that says "this is wrong and this is right." Otherwise we could just do what we wanted to. "It's all relative" so to speak. The funny thing is people that even claim to believe that "it's all relative" don't live that way.

 

[DACMAN]

Problem is this discussion wasn't supposed to be about religious interpretation, and I severely hate when politics, culture, or religion derail topics like these.

I started the thread and figured this would probably happen. I see no problem with it as everyone has been very civil and respectful the whole time. If you don't like it, leave. I'm not trying to be a butthead or anything, I'm serious. If you don't like were the discussion has gone don't click on the thread. Discussion branching off into other areas is natural. The only time it really becomes a problem is when you start barking at people to get back on topic. To us, this has become the topic.

 

[Sloth7d]

Or you could've, I don't know, posted another topic to debate this, or taken it to another already established one instead of ruining this one. Which you do know that creating this topic knowing where it might lead is border line trolling, right? Regardless. When these religious and political debates peek their little heads into these discussions, it usually isn't long before the mods come in to clean house. The reason for that is obvious when discussing such off-topic and sensitive issues.

 

[Reaper]

A few comments regarding Christianity, the Bible, and homosexuality.

1) The only record we have that records the teachings of Christ whatosever is the Bible. Every major branch/sect/denomination (whatever you want to call it) of Christianity has accepted that the Bible is the final authority on spiritual matters. That has always been the official teaching. Sure, some have then done/taught things that hypocritically went against that main belief, but that is and historically always has been the only meaning defining aspect of the Christian faith. For that reason alone anyone who denies that the Bible is the final authority on spiritual matters, or who tries to pick and choose what they believe of it, has no right to call themselves Christians lest they dilute the word into having even less meaning than it already does.

Calling oneself a Christian doesn't make one a Christian any more than my calling myself Italian would make me an Italian. Either you are or you aren't, and the Bible makes it clear that a true follower of Christ (a true Christian) will strive to submit to and obey Jesus' teachings. ALL OF THEM. That's the whole point. If you think you can pick and choose you're making yourself your lord, not Jesus.

2) As for a previous poster's comments regarding language being an issue so far as the Bible's addressing of homosexuality, I received A grades in Koine Greek (the language the new testament was written in), and can assure you that the meaning in key passages of scripture are very clear. It's true they didn't have an exact single word "homosexual", but when the language says "if a man has sex with another man", I'm pretty certain what it means.

3) Homosexuality is universally condemned in the Bible every time it is mentioned, not just in the so-called "barbaric" old testament laws (that's an insulting and culturally arrogant way to refer to it but another issue altogether). Jesus himself defined marriage as intended by God as being between one man and one woman, and since the Bible is even MORE clear that sex is only to take place in a marriage relationship, that makes it pretty obvious homosexual sexual activity is a sin.
But the key passage that is in the New Testament which would states most clearly that it is a sin is Romans chapter 1, specifically verses 26-28.




My concluding thoughts: If you're not willing to acknowledge all of Jesus' teachings as laid out in the Scriptures, at least be honest enough to not call yourselves Christians. Call yourselves the Happy Funtime Love Group for all I care, but you're not a Christian if you don't listen to Jesus Christ, and as I said before the only source that we have for His teachings is in the thousands of ancient copies that we have of the biblical manuscripts. And since Jesus Himself referred to the Scriptures as the fully inspired, fully trustworthy Word of God, it's a take or leave it thing, not a pick and choose thing.

Exactly right.
Everyone is free to do what they want but you can't call yourself a Christian if you don't believe the Bible. You can be a Christian and be gay. The only thing is you have to acknowledge that gay is sin and pray for strength to leave that lifestyle. Just like if your a theif or an alcoholic, you can still be a Christian but you have to acknowledge those things are wrong and try not to do them. The problem comes when, just because you do them, you start to believe that its ok to be a theif or alcoholic.
Also God is not up in heaven saying lets make a deal. He's provided the Bible to say this IS the deal. Now everyone has the right to believe or not believe, but if you chose to proclaim that you are a believer than the least you could do is...........believe.

 

[BrianWilly]

Or you could've, I don't know, posted another topic to debate this, or taken it to another already established one instead of ruining this one. Which you do know that creating this topic knowing where it might lead is border line trolling, right? Regardless. When these religious and political debates peek their little heads into these discussions, it usually isn't long before the mods come in to clean house. The reason for that is obvious when discussing such off-topic and sensitive issues.

Oh, it's not that bad. As long as it's civil and no one starts acting like the *****ebags that we all are at heart. After all, "This is controversial, so no one should ever talk about it" is not so far from censorship.

 

[Sloth7d]

I just think it belongs in the proper thread, but whatever. I'm out voted on this one. have at it.

 

[DACMAN]

Seriously. You just need to leave.

 

[DACMAN]

Or you could've, I don't know, posted another topic to debate this, or taken it to another already established one instead of ruining this one. Which you do know that creating this topic knowing where it might lead is border line trolling, right? Regardless. When these religious and political debates peek their little heads into these discussions, it usually isn't long before the mods come in to clean house. The reason for that is obvious when discussing such off-topic and sensitive issues.

Yeah, the irony is I think this is far away closer to "trolling" than me posting this thread thinking people might turn the discussion in this direction eventually.

 

[random_havoc]

If it isn't wrong why did you call it a "sinful inclination"? And isn't that saying that lusting isn't wrong? Whether it's for someone of the same sex or not. I thought the Bible was pretty clear that lust, in any form, is wrong outside of marriage.

And I agree with you about an absolute authority. We need a being that says "this is wrong and this is right." Otherwise we could just do what we wanted to. "It's all relative" so to speak. The funny thing is people that even claim to believe that "it's all relative" don't live that way.

I'm glad we agree on there having to be an absolute authority. As for the "sinful inclination", perhaps it was just bad wording but I meant it in the sense of being inclined toward doing a sinful thing, not the inclination itself being sinful.