Dark Reign: Good concept, bad execution

[Fenwick]

Hmm villians in a position of power and no one knows about it? Was that not done to perfection inside of Wanted? Now we have what a few months of "evil" marvel until a summer long slug fest? Was that not Civil War? Remeber that? Remember when that changed everything? Also I know the Dark Reign will end, but who here does not see Spider-man being the one to stop Osborn?

 

[random_havoc]

quick reply:

1) Who's more likely to be the people to buy Dark Reign, people on boards like these (who therefore DO know the backstory of Goblin) or the average shlub you keep referring so Shadowboxer, who doesn't know the backstory and mostly just knows Goblin from the movie or a cartoon? Who do you think buys more comics in general? Yeah, us, that's who.

2) Even the average person who only knows goblin from the movie and cartoons if he miraculously jumped on board just for dark reign still knows goblin mainly as a crazy killer. And when he sees dark reign his reaction will likely be "What? Green Goblin's supposed to be heading Shield now? That's ******ed." I know this because that was the reaction from my brother and from another friend of mine, neither of which regularly collect comics.

 

[Anubis]

So who gives a s**t what they think?

 

[BrianWilly]

1) Who's more likely to be the people to buy Dark Reign, people on boards like these (who therefore DO know the backstory of Goblin) or the average shlub you keep referring so Shadowboxer, who doesn't know the backstory and mostly just knows Goblin from the movie or a cartoon? Who do you think buys more comics in general? Yeah, us, that's who.

Actually, I really do have to point out that this is almost certainly not the case. Message boards are usually very very poor estimates of sales, and the Hype is no exception. For better or for worse -- for worse, in my opinion -- that "average shlub" is in fact the guy who drives comic sales in general.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

quick reply:

1) Who's more likely to be the people to buy Dark Reign, people on boards like these (who therefore DO know the backstory of Goblin) or the average shlub you keep referring so Shadowboxer, who doesn't know the backstory and mostly just knows Goblin from the movie or a cartoon?

The message board user represents a very, very, very small piece of the pie.

"What? Green Goblin's supposed to be heading Shield now? That's ******ed."

Well, he isn't.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Actually, I really do have to point out that this is almost certainly not the case. Message boards are usually very very poor estimates of sales, and the Hype is no exception. For better or for worse -- for worse, in my opinion -- that "average shlub" is in fact the guy who drives comic sales in general.

I hate the average schlub. He took Blue Beetle away from me.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Although Stan Lee, Kirby and Ditko created all those characters in the Sixties because they wanted heroes with mass appeal.

 

[fifthfiend]

The message board user represents a very, very, very small piece of the pie.

A vanishingly tiny, nigh-microscopic pie.

Although Stan Lee, Kirby and Ditko created all those characters in the Sixties because they wanted heroes with mass appeal.

It's a shame that today's publishers have rejected that vision in favor of a tiny, niche audience that will tolerate the schlocky, incoherent stories they want to tell.

 

[Fenwick]

If they wanted a strictly niche audience, would they not have to stop returning to the status quo more or less? Wildstorm and its "earth is gone all our heroes suck" event is for a niche. Marvel still has mass appeal, and that appeal is a string of summer long slug fests. So Osborn is in charge, we get people go "oh cool villians are in control," then around june or july we have "Dark Reign Disassembled" and the heroes win once more.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

It's a shame that today's publishers have rejected that vision in favor of a tiny, niche audience that will tolerate the schlocky, incoherent stories they want to tell.

Sales figures really say otherwise.

 

[fifthfiend]

Sales figures really say otherwise.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

It's a shame that today's publishers have rejected that vision in favor of a tiny, niche audience that will tolerate the schlocky, incoherent stories they want to tell.

Also, I'm not saying stories are necessarily good if they disregard continuity, but rather that it's not fair to writers to make continuity get in the way of the story they want to tell. I truly doubt any writer with ideas as wacky as "Reed Richards' should be a homosexual pirate ninja" (which might have been an improvement during CW) would get anywhere in the comic business, but certain writers do wacky stuff all the time and since they write good and entertaining stories fan lap it up. You can't say to Bendis "well, Alan Moore gets to do what he wants, YOU have to follow this formula because YOU suck". Character development, continuity, all these things sort of exist for one story and one writer, but when you run on a sliding time scale they will get thrown out eventually. The only true consistency in comics is the inconsistency with how the characters are used from writer to writer. If comics were reality you'd probably think most of your favorite characters were schizophrenic and in need of serious physiciatric care.

The unfortunate truth is in industries like Marvel, it's very hard to govern quality. The old Hollywood phrase is "nobody knows nothing". You can have all the right writers, all the right editors and all the right characters and your piece can still suck monkey balls. Then you can hire a monkey smashing a keyboard with a two-by-four and it's a complete home-run. The only way though you're going to get Alan Moore's and Grant Morrison's is by allowing creative freedom.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Keep telling yourself that.

It's not a lie Civil War outsold Incredible Hercules. Just remember that.

 

[The Hill]

I just want to know one thing...will Spider-Man have at the very least a semi-large roll in this story? It would seem as an injustice that he'd be totaly left out.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Yes, and it will come with a good sized pat of butter.

 

[The Hill]

Yes, and it will come with a good sized pat of butter.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Also, I'm not saying stories are necessarily good if they disregard continuity, but rather that it's not fair to writers to make continuity get in the way of the story they want to tell. I truly doubt any writer with ideas as wacky as "Reed Richards' should be a homosexual pirate ninja" (which might have been an improvement during CW) would get anywhere in the comic business, but certain writers do wacky stuff all the time and since they write good and entertaining stories fan lap it up. You can't say to Bendis "well, Alan Moore gets to do what he wants, YOU have to follow this formula because YOU suck". Character development, continuity, all these things sort of exist for one story and one writer, but when you run on a sliding time scale they will get thrown out eventually. The only true consistency in comics is the inconsistency with how the characters are used from writer to writer. If comics were reality you'd probably think most of your favorite characters were schizophrenic and in need of serious physiciatric care.

The unfortunate truth is in industries like Marvel, it's very hard to govern quality. The old Hollywood phrase is "nobody knows nothing". You can have all the right writers, all the right editors and all the right characters and your piece can still suck monkey balls. Then you can hire a monkey smashing a keyboard with a two-by-four and it's a complete home-run. The only way though you're going to get Alan Moore's and Grant Morrison's is by allowing creative freedom.

Alan Moore doesn't really do much in-continuity stuff anyway, though. And when he did, he actually took the original formula and built it up to his vision rather than just introducing all sorts of changes in his first issue and writing the characters completely differently from the accepted interpretations of the time. At least for the few in-continuity tales he's written that I know of, like his Wildcats run or his Green Lantern stuff. I've heard that his Captain Britain run was pretty faithful to the character of Captain Britain while introducing a lot of new elements into his world, too (haven't read it myself). I've always liked that about Moore--even a guy of his stature realizes that licensed characters don't exist in a vacuum, just killing time before he can take his magic touch to them.

Granted, I could have only read the exceptions rather than the rule for him.

 

[Anubis]

Nope, did the same thing with Swamp Thing, and Batman, and everybody else. Hell, he even kept faithful to the characters in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. The guys just awesome that way. Not so much about the giving up free money for crappy movies made out of his work though. Free money is free money. I'd kill my dog with a brick for a 1000 bucks.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's f***ed up, man. At least try to get it up to $2,500.

 

[Anubis]

Well, the thing is, I don't have a dog, so any monies I get for murdering a dog I happen to say is mine would be all profit.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

What if the people paying you did their homework and knew you didn't have a dog?

 

[Anubis]

Then they'd probably have to hire Michael Weston to come and get the money back.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You'd probably be framed for money laundering and blackmailed out of the country within 2 days.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Anyone else looking forward to my main man DPs role in all this? He storms Thunderbolts Mountain single handedly doesn't he?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Anyone else looking forward to my main man DPs role in all this? He storms Thunderbolts Mountain single handedly doesn't he?

Isn't that what he always does