Comics "Dark Side of the Spider" debuts at Spidey Kicks Butt!

My...favorite...part...

Let's look at another couple of lame villains that Spider-Man has fought over the years. You know, those two losers called the Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus.

The Green Goblin debuted in Amazing Spider-Man #14 (July 1964), and after two years of mystery - his identity was revealed in issue #39 (August 1966). Who could he have been - reporters Ned Leeds, Frederick Foswell, or even Jolly J. Jonah Jameson himself? No - he turned out to be - Norman Osborn?

Who the HELL is Norman Osborn?

Oh - that guy that was first introduced in issue #37 - just two months ago? The father of the guy introduced just eight months ago? You mean Stan Lee and Steve Ditko came up with this Goblin character before even knowing who he really was? So if Osborn was the Green Goblin all the time - why in issue #37 was he trying to kill Mendell Stromm with a rifle when he's got pumpkin bombs, razor bats, smothering ghosts and - gasp - sonic toads? Why in issue #38 is he walking around in a phony moustache and goatee hiring lame thugs to take out Spider-Man when he's the motherfriggin' Green Goblin? Who let this Stan Lee guy near such an icon as Spider-Man? And why does Osborn want to be a crime lord? The man invented a compact glider and a super strength formula (well, he stole the formula, but what's a few details) - legitimate military contracts and patents would have made him a multi-billionaire and given him all of the power and control he could handle (I've already delved deep into Osborn's psyche and rationalized it - but that's just me - a middle aged goofball sitting at a computer - not a real writer of the spider titles).

In Amazing Spider-Man #3, Otto Octavious starts acting whacko after a radiation accident bonds him and his mechanical arms telepathically. He takes over a nuclear power plant, threatens to blow it up, Spider-Man comes and kicks his ass - and he's mad at Spider-Man? When he finally gets out of jail, he kidnaps Betty Brant and her brother and starts working with a criminal by the name of Blackie Gaxton - rather than using that brilliant mind of his to make all kinds of amazing discoveries and thus make far more money than he ever would by being - oh, and this is original - a crime lord? What is it with being a crime lord with these guys? Surrounding yourself with a bunch of goons with guns and shaking down a bunch of other mooks in pin stirp double breasted suits, along with legitimate small business owners who are struggling to get by in the first place, only to have some other mook try to overthrow or kill you? Look what it did for Al Capone, John Gotti, Sam Giancana, Bugsy Siegel - I could go on and on.


I have been saying this for YEARS! Eddie Brock had a bad reason for hating Spider-Man? Was Doc Ock or GG's reasons any better? You can't say Venom's origins and motivations are horrible and pretend that GG and Doc Ock have rationale excuses. Hell, you should have mentioned Dr. Doom's origins as well, but I'll stop here.

And before the user Doc Ock, the Master Planner, attacks me, again, I love Doctor Octopus, I'm just saying cool characters can have lame origins.
 
I have been saying this for YEARS! Eddie Brock had a bad reason for hating Spider-Man? Was Doc Ock or GG's reasons any better?

Ummmm, Spider-Man foiled Doc Ock and Green Goblin's schemes, and put Ock in prison several times, too.

Pretty strong motivation to develop a hatred of Spider-Man, wouldn't you agree??

You can't say Venom's origins and motivations are horrible and pretend that GG and Doc Ock have rationale excuses.

Yes, you can. Ock and Gobby didn't start their careers swearing bloody murder on Spider-Man. They started out with their own personal ambitions. Spider-Man came along and screwed up their plans big time. That put him on their s*** list.

Brock, on the other hand, is entirely responsible for his own misfortunes. He just chooses to blame Spidey for them.

And before the user Doc Ock, the Master Planner, attacks me, again, I love Doctor Octopus, I'm just saying cool characters can have lame origins.

Yeah, but Ock and Gobby don't :cwink:
 
Perfect timing, like clockwork. I knew you woldn't let this one slip past you!
 
Ummmm, Spider-Man foiled Doc Ock and Green Goblin's schemes, and put Ock in prison several times, too.

Pretty strong motivation to develop a hatred of Spider-Man, wouldn't you agree??



Yes, you can. Ock and Gobby didn't start their careers swearing bloody murder on Spider-Man. They started out with their own personal ambitions. Spider-Man came along and screwed up their plans big time. That put him on their s*** list.

Brock, on the other hand, is entirely responsible for his own misfortunes. He just chooses to blame Spidey for them.



Yeah, but Ock and Gobby don't :cwink:

I was going to make a post similar to this. Thanks Doc.

Neither Ock or Osborn had hatred of Spider-Man initially. He was merely an obstacle to be disposed of. When Ock tossed Spidey out the window in ASM #3, he didn't care about going after him and killing him. Their animosity towards Spidey was cultivated from Spidey constantly stopping or delaying their plans.

Brock on the other hand had from out the gate a hatred of Spider-Man- And- Unlike Ock and the Goblin- hatred for NO REASON. Even if they were evil Ock & the Goblin hated Spidey for a legitmate reason. Brock blamed him for something that Spidey didn't do.
 
I was going to make a post similar to this. Thanks Doc.

Neither Ock or Osborn had hatred of Spider-Man initially. He was merely an obstacle to be disposed of. When Ock tossed Spidey out the window in ASM #3, he didn't care about going after him and killing him. Their animosity towards Spidey was cultivated from Spidey constantly stopping or delaying their plans.

Brock on the other hand had from out the gate a hatred of Spider-Man- And- Unlike Ock and the Goblin- hatred for NO REASON. Even if they were evil Ock & the Goblin hated Spidey for a legitmate reason. Brock blamed him for something that Spidey didn't do.

I'm going to have to dissagree.
In my opinion Brocks reasoning for hating Spider-Man is the equivilant of Ock's or GG's.
GG wanted to become a crime lord. Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Ock wanted to take over a nuclear power plant(?)(whatever it was, he wanted to take it over) and Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Eddie Brock's plans were also foiled by Spidey, when the Sin Eater was reveiled. The only differenece is that Eddie isn't insane....UNTILL he is bonded with the symbiot that already hates Spider-Man for rejecting it.

In all three cases, Spider-Man stopped something that shouldn't of been going on. He righted all the wrongs. And Ock, GG, and Brock, instead of stopping thier illegal activity and trying to move on with thier lives, they decide to blame Spider-Man for all thier troubles. In all three cases Spider-Man was blamed for something they all could have prevented had they only not broken the law. Spidey doesn't get involved no reason at all. He stops crimes. And even tho Brock wasn't directly involved with the Sin-Eater muders he still deserved what he had coming to him, just like Ock and GG. But they all blamed Spider-man for THIER OWN actions.

Now I ask you this... if you were robbing a bank for whatever reason, and you are stopped by the police and they throw you in jail for 5 years. Do you seek revenge upon the police? The judge?
 
I was going to make a post similar to this. Thanks Doc.

Neither Ock or Osborn had hatred of Spider-Man initially. He was merely an obstacle to be disposed of. When Ock tossed Spidey out the window in ASM #3, he didn't care about going after him and killing him. Their animosity towards Spidey was cultivated from Spidey constantly stopping or delaying their plans.

Brock on the other hand had from out the gate a hatred of Spider-Man- And- Unlike Ock and the Goblin- hatred for NO REASON. Even if they were evil Ock & the Goblin hated Spidey for a legitmate reason. Brock blamed him for something that Spidey didn't do.

Exactly :up:

The reason Ock even formed the Sinister Six is because he was gathering all those who were screwed over by Spidey in the past. They were sick of him interfering with their plans.

They had legitimate reasons to hate him and want him dead. Unlike Brock.

I'm going to have to dissagree.
In my opinion Brocks reasoning for hating Spider-Man is the equivilant of Ock's or GG's.
GG wanted to become a crime lord. Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Ock wanted to take over a nuclear power plant(?)(whatever it was, he wanted to take it over) and Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Eddie Brock's plans were also foiled by Spidey, when the Sin Eater was reveiled. The only differenece is that Eddie isn't insane....UNTILL he is bonded with the symbiot that already hates Spider-Man for rejecting it.

Eddie Brock's misery was self inflicted. He felt like he had been wronged in some way. Like he was an innocent victim or something.

Ock and Goblin never saw themselves as that. They knew full well they were the bad guys, and were darn proud of it. They were powerful and intelligent, and made no bones about it when breaking the law.

When Spider-Man defeated them, they hated him for ruining their plans. And in Ock's case, also having him put in prison. They didn't see themselves as poor innocents who were wronged by an evil vigilante. They saw themselves as superior beings who had their brilliant plans foiled by an interfering fool in a mask.

Their hatred is far more justified than Brock's. Easily.

Now I ask you this... if you were robbing a bank for whatever reason, and you are stopped by the police and they throw you in jail for 5 years. Do you seek revenge upon the police? The judge?

How is that relevant to Brock?? He made a screw up and was exposed for it. It was self inflicted. He saw himself as a good guy.

Do bank robbers see themselves as good guys doing good deeds?? Or do they know they're breaking the law??
 
I think it's important to point out here, when discussing Eddie Brock's motivations and how flimsy they may or may not be, to remember that Eddie's actual reason for hating Spider-Man (however misguided) is a blatant contradiction to the original Sin-Eater story (as pointed out in the actual article posted above). That, to me, takes away some credibility.

Dragon said:
Neither Ock or Osborn had hatred of Spider-Man initially. He was merely an obstacle to be disposed of. When Ock tossed Spidey out the window in ASM #3, he didn't care about going after him and killing him. Their animosity towards Spidey was cultivated from Spidey constantly stopping or delaying their plans.

You and Ock definitely right on the money here, but I've definitely got to agree with MadGoblin when he points out that their actual motivations for crime are kind of silly - at least today - when they stood to make billions for their inventions and potential contributions to science.

But they are, in fact, pretty insane, and such is the way of supervillainy.
 
Do bank robbers see themselves as good guys doing good deeds?? Or do they know they're breaking the law??

This one doesn't apply to Brock necessarily, but it does apply to Ock and the Green Goblin.
 
I'm going to have to dissagree.
In my opinion Brocks reasoning for hating Spider-Man is the equivilant of Ock's or GG's.
GG wanted to become a crime lord. Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Ock wanted to take over a nuclear power plant(?)(whatever it was, he wanted to take it over) and Spidey foiled his plan, so he hates Spidey.
Eddie Brock's plans were also foiled by Spidey, when the Sin Eater was reveiled. The only differenece is that Eddie isn't insane....UNTILL he is bonded with the symbiot that already hates Spider-Man for rejecting it.

In all three cases, Spider-Man stopped something that shouldn't of been going on. He righted all the wrongs. And Ock, GG, and Brock, instead of stopping thier illegal activity and trying to move on with thier lives, they decide to blame Spider-Man for all thier troubles. In all three cases Spider-Man was blamed for something they all could have prevented had they only not broken the law. Spidey doesn't get involved no reason at all. He stops crimes. And even tho Brock wasn't directly involved with the Sin-Eater muders he still deserved what he had coming to him, just like Ock and GG. But they all blamed Spider-man for THIER OWN actions.

Now I ask you this... if you were robbing a bank for whatever reason, and you are stopped by the police and they throw you in jail for 5 years. Do you seek revenge upon the police? The judge?

No, only because real life doesn't reflect comic book stories where criminals go out for revenge against the authorities. There certainly have been cases of criminals going after cops and judges (in the past two years more or less). But it's rare.

Bottomline is Ock's motivations are wrong. He fights Spider-Man because he's in Ock's way. He has built up an animosity because Spider-Man is ALWAYS in his way.

Spider-Man WASN'T in Brock's way of writing a truthful article. Spider-Man didn't intend to hurt Brock by capturing a killer.

Brock built all of that up in his mind. Spider-Man's attacks on Ock and the Goblin are real- physical attacks.
 
Well, I was wondering what you're take on the Unmasking was, Madgoblin, and I have to say you make some very good points as to why it was badly executed and also why it is not necessarily out of character for Spider-Man to do so. After all, it wasn't as if Spider-Man hadn't been unmasked before (and pointed out in a satirical post entitled "Who Cares About Spider-Man's Silly Old Secret Identity Anyway?") and, what helped to get over my initial anger towards it, was finding out that Spidey's identity being public was something kicking around Marvel for awhile. According to Howard Mackie on the Byrne Robotics, he said that this was something the various Marvel writers had in store BEFORE the clone saga and right around the time of Venom's first inital appearances. However, Tom Defalco ended up rejecting the idea because the initial reaction to Spider-Man being outed as Peter Parker would have, in the eyes of the public, would be "Who?" In other words, the public wouldn't care who Spider-Man's real name was, because far as they were concerned, he was simply Spider-Man the hero or Spider-Man the menace. And that's basically what we have gotten in the "Unmasking."

Also, the way Spider-Man was unmasked has actually made things problematic, not only for the reasons you cite, but also because making his identity public removes one of the essential aspects that made the character work to begin with: that Peter had a normal life with everyday obligations that he tried to keep separate from his other life as a superhero, that it was both a release from his problems and also contributed to problems. Having a a public identity pretty much eliminates that aspect because that sense of having normal problems and responsiblies has been outweighed by his superhero life which he must now be 24/7. If anyone at Marvel wants to get Spidey "back to basics" there is going to be an even bigger convoluted mess on the same level as the "Clone Saga." (And considering how the "Unmasking" instead of increasing sales has had the opposite effect, I'm pretty sure that they'll want to come up with someway of undoing it if they believe the "unmasking" was responsible for the decline in sales.)

Also, this was pretty much a stunt from the get go. Consider that Mark Millar when writting Civil War admitted that it wasn't his idea but something Joe Q came up with at the spur of the moment; Quesada then said later that he had no real idea whose idea it was, but maybe it was Tom Breevot's--talk about passing the buck. Quesada also said there was a year-and-a-half worth of stories out of the unmasking? Why only that much? Why not just come out and say that they hoped to make this a permanent part of the status quo like they tried with "the Other?" Also, Spidey's life is a series of ups and downs. Prior to his Unmasking, everything was going good for Spidey, but afterwards, his life has spiraled out of control, haven't lost his job, his home at Stark Tower, the public's respect, being branded an outlaw, and now talk about MJ or Aunt May getting killed. Spidey never lasts in such extremes for long. Plus since this was coupled with Civil War, there really wasn't any "numerous story possibilities" but only one story possibility, which is pretty much what we've been seeing now for the past several months.

Also, as far as making it permanent, I was wondering if you read this person's article that retorts this argument?: http://fourcolormedmon.blogspot.com/

With regards to Venom, I completely agree with your take. Where I would argue, which Doc Ock and Dragon have brillantly pointed out, is this: Green Goblin and Doc Ock never started out as villains with a desire for revenge against Spider-Man. They followed the super-villain convention of being bad guys who was more concerned about their own personal ambitions whom the hero tried to stop and offered a challenge to the hero. After their defeat at the hands of the hero, that's when they realize the hero needs to be taken care of first before whatever schemes they have need to take affect, but even then it's nothing personal. Only after several rounds of this to the villains desire fro revenge outweigh any personal ambition. This isn't just limited to Doc Ock and the Green Goblin but villains like the Vulture, Sandman, Shocker, Scorpion, and especially Kraven the Hunter. Even Mysterio, whose goal was to publicly discredit Spider-Man and make himself a hero didn't have any personal grudge towards Spider-Man but strictly saw his downfall as a means to an end. Venom, however, was created entirely on the basis of revenge over what he believed was personal wrongdoing and, as you correctly point out, he really doesn't have a well-founded reason and that other attempts such as the animated series, Ultimate, and the upcoming movie, have done a better job fleshing out his motivation and even improving upon his origin. J. Jonah Jameson, who is also motivated by a personal hatred for Spider-Man, has a far more developed desire for revenge than Venom does. Spider-Man is basically everything Jameson prides himself as being but realizes he is not and yet refuses to "climb to his level" because his own self-importance. The only option for him is to use his power and influence to ruin Spidey so he won't have to be reminded that he's a hypocrite.
 
Eddie Brock's misery was self inflicted. He felt like he had been wronged in some way. Like he was an innocent victim or something.

Ock and Goblin never saw themselves as that. They knew full well they were the bad guys, and were darn proud of it. They were powerful and intelligent, and made no bones about it when breaking the law.

When Spider-Man defeated them, they hated him for ruining their plans. And in Ock's case, also having him put in prison. They didn't see themselves as poor innocents who were wronged by an evil vigilante. They saw themselves as superior beings who had their brilliant plans foiled by an interfering fool in a mask.

Their hatred is far more justified than Brock's. Easily.



How is that relevant to Brock?? He made a screw up and was exposed for it. It was self inflicted. He saw himself as a good guy.

Do bank robbers see themselves as good guys doing good deeds?? Or do they know they're breaking the law??

I see your point. But I still think all of Spidey's villians are wrong to blame Spider-Man for foiling thier plans. What I am trying to say is that, if there is a difference between the motivations, it is only by a few degrees. Because when it all boils down to it, Spider-Man is being blamed for something he should not be blamed for. Like MadGoblin said, if they just started doing the right thing Spidey would leave them alone. Or in Brock's case, if he just did the right thing he wouldn't have been exposed as a fraud. And it doesn't matter if he thought he was doing the right thing or not, you don't blame someone else for something you were directly responsible for.
 
I see your point. But I still think all of Spidey's villians are wrong to blame Spider-Man for foiling thier plans. What I am trying to say is that, if there is a difference between the motivations, it is only by a few degrees. Because when it all boils down to it, Spider-Man is being blamed for something he should not be blamed for. Like MadGoblin said, if they just started doing the right thing Spidey would leave them alone. Or in Brock's case, if he just did the right thing he wouldn't have been exposed as a fraud. And it doesn't matter if he thought he was doing the right thing or not, you don't blame someone else for something you were directly responsible for.

The difference between Ock, Goblin and Brock is simply this:

Ock & the Goblin are trying to commit crimes. Spidey as a crime fighter stands in their way. He has to.

Brock however didn't have Spidey in his way. He could have written an accurate, truthful story and Spider-Man wouldn't have impacted his life.

Now I understand you're looking at it as Ock and the goblin also don't have to commit crimes- but the thing is- they're criminals. Crimes are what they do. And Spider-Man has a direct effect on their schemes.

Eddie wasn't a criminal- he was a reporter- writing stories is what he did- and but for his own choice to release his story prematurely, he'd never have had any problems. Spider-Man had no direct effect on Eddie's life but for his own failure. It's the same as if you accidently put a million dollars in the trash, and you hate the garbage man for unknowingly taking it away.
 
The difference between Ock, Goblin and Brock is simply this:

Ock & the Goblin are trying to commit crimes. Spidey as a crime fighter stands in their way. He has to.

Brock however didn't have Spidey in his way. He could have written an accurate, truthful story and Spider-Man wouldn't have impacted his life.

Now I understand you're looking at it as Ock and the goblin also don't have to commit crimes- but the thing is- they're criminals. Crimes are what they do. And Spider-Man has a direct effect on their schemes.

Eddie wasn't a criminal- he was a reporter- writing stories is what he did- and but for his own choice to release his story prematurely, he'd never have had any problems. Spider-Man had no direct effect on Eddie's life but for his own failure. It's the same as if you accidently put a million dollars in the trash, and you hate the garbage man for unknowingly taking it away.

But he "knew" the identity of the Sin-Eater and didn't do anything about it. He instead chose to put the story out early for his own personal gain.
He risked the Sin-Eater attacking again, and he also protected the Sin-Eater from being caught (even tho it wasn't the real Sin-Eater).
Every Spider-Man villian could have avoided problems from Spidey.
 
I used to think the comics version of Brocks hatred for spider-man was weak until i read through this thread. now i think its kinda cool, he reminds me of one of those psychos who go after celebrities who have never actualy really done anything to him. kinda like the guy who killed John Lennon. in his mind it all makes sense, but to everybody else its retarted.
 
Wonderful article, The MadGoblin!

I can't wait to read te next one!

:yay:
 
Of course it was Eddie's own fault that his career was ruined...that's the point. Eddie can't accept that he screwed up so he has to blame someone else, that person being Spider-Man. In other words, Eddie refuses to take responsibility for his own actions. Which establishes that even before Eddie ever encountered the symbiote, he was already the opposite of Peter Parker.

And remember, Eddie originally didn't seek revenge on Spider-Man...he was contemplating suicide! So I wouldn't think it a stretch to assume that perhaps the symbiote influenced him or preyed upon Brock's unrational anger and twisted it even further so that Brock felt confident that his hatred was rational. Don't forget, Venom is the combination of Eddie Brock AND the symbiote...and the symbiote has plenty of motivation to hate Spider-Man!

Venom is a Spider-Man that is still "looking out for number one." Everything Venom does is self-serving, but he never holds himself responsible for his villianous acts because if it weren't for Spider-Man, he'd still be a hotshot reporter. No matter what, he's always the victim. Great power with NO responsibility. That's why, to me, Eddie Brock's silly reason for hating Spider-Man works.
 
Thanks one and all for the comments. I really enjoy reading them, although I usually don't jump in because I really have nothing additional to add other than what I've already written. Hopefully as we'll see in later parts - whatever we think of how well Venom's original motivations stack up against other Spidey villains - the real problems began in subsequent storytelling.

stillanerd said:
Also, as far as making it permanent, I was wondering if you read this person's article that retorts this argument (on the unmasking)?: http://fourcolormedmon.blogspot.com/

Yeah I saw it. Mr. Green is quite passionate. He proceeds from the assumption that the unmasking was a bad idea - period. But for me, the problem, as was with Venom, is how Marvel handles it going forward - and I think they have given us relatively little reason to be optimistic.
 
But he "knew" the identity of the Sin-Eater and didn't do anything about it. He instead chose to put the story out early for his own personal gain.
He risked the Sin-Eater attacking again, and he also protected the Sin-Eater from being caught (even tho it wasn't the real Sin-Eater).
Every Spider-Man villian could have avoided problems from Spidey.

Comparisons:

Direct attack from Spidey.

No attack from Spidey, but you trip over webbing he fired twenty minutes ago.

A foreign power that kills your people.

A foreign power who ignores your people as they starve.

Cheating on your wife.

Flipping through a Playboy and fantasizing about cheating on your wife.

Eddie doesn't have the DIRECT connection to Spidey, and thus motivation for hating him that Ock and the others have. He just wants to blame someone other than himself for his failings. Because that's it- HE FAILED. He wasn't circumvented by Spider-Man.
The accurate comparison to Ock and the others would be if Ock was robbing a bank and getting away with it. Meanwhile Spidey, is standing outside the bank stopping an unrelated crime. Ock, running accidently slams into Spidey's body, is knocked unconscious and caught. Then he swears revenge against Spider-Man.

Sure- if you want to simply accept that Eddie is just a crazy bastard who blames his problems on the world and not himself fine. But that sure as hell isn't the makings of a great villain. And- except for the fact the Michelinie and others made Venom unbelievably all-powerful, giving Spidey no means of defeating him other than running and hiding, he wouldn't be.
 
Sure- if you want to simply accept that Eddie is just a crazy bastard who blames his problems on the world and not himself fine. But that sure as hell isn't the makings of a great villain. And- except for the fact the Michelinie and others made Venom unbelievably all-powerful, giving Spidey no means of defeating him other than running and hiding, he wouldn't be.

I have no problem accepting that.
I never thought Venom was a great villian, infact I was opposed to him being in the Spidey film. I have always thought that his motivations were weak, but so have almost every other Spidey villian. When these villians first appeared all thier motivations were weak, it's only after a couple years can I see it all making sence.
 
I used to think the comics version of Brocks hatred for spider-man was weak until i read through this thread. now i think its kinda cool, he reminds me of one of those psychos who go after celebrities who have never actualy really done anything to him. kinda like the guy who killed John Lennon. in his mind it all makes sense, but to everybody else its retarted.

This is a perfect comparison!
 

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