Comics "Dark Side of the Spider" debuts at Spidey Kicks Butt!

[Dangerous]

Of course it was Eddie's own fault that his career was ruined...that's the point. Eddie can't accept that he screwed up so he has to blame someone else, that person being Spider-Man. In other words, Eddie refuses to take responsibility for his own actions. Which establishes that even before Eddie ever encountered the symbiote, he was already the opposite of Peter Parker.

And remember, Eddie originally didn't seek revenge on Spider-Man...he was contemplating suicide! So I wouldn't think it a stretch to assume that perhaps the symbiote influenced him or preyed upon Brock's unrational anger and twisted it even further so that Brock felt confident that his hatred was rational. Don't forget, Venom is the combination of Eddie Brock AND the symbiote...and the symbiote has plenty of motivation to hate Spider-Man!

Exactly, I was just about to write a post similar to this.

Although Brock/Venom's motivation to hate/kill PP/SM does seem weak, it is often overlooked that Venom is two living entities w/ two sets of motivation of distain towards Spider-man overlapped and fused together.

Ultimately the symbiote is a god dammed alien, although as character profiles go we know quite a bit about the symbiote, we can't understand it in the way we can completely understand PP since he is human and we know almost everything about his life. We don't know the inner workings of the symbiote’s laws of reason or why it might attach to a loser like Angelo Fortunato.
What we do know is that it saw PP as its perfect host and he left a massive impact on the creature, enough that it would forever replicate his powers and wear the spider symbol after he dumped it.
So while Eddies reasons were pretty weak, his frustrations toward PP were likely magnified ten fold by the symbiote’s much more valid hate.

 

[Dragon]

I have no problem accepting that.
I never thought Venom was a great villian, infact I was opposed to him being in the Spidey film. I have always thought that his motivations were weak, but so have almost every other Spidey villian. When these villians first appeared all thier motivations were weak, it's only after a couple years can I see it all making sence.

No they weren't. If you want to say ALL Spidey villains' motivations were weak, then you have to say every villain, criminal, anti-hero in every movie, film, TV show, literary work's motivations are weak. In the end, it's all about the lust for money, power, sex or what have you. Desiring something and taking the wrong route to acquire it.

In Eddie's case his motivation is especially weak. And worse- his motivation is his only reason for being. In Ock, the Goblin etc.'s case, they want MORE than Spider-Man dead. They obsess over him because over time he's come to represent everything stopping them from achieving their ends. But- if any of them succeeded in killing Spidey, they would continue forward with their ambitions. They're 3 dimensional. For Venom, killing Spider-Man IS his ambition. Nothing more. And that's compounded by the fact he doesn't even have a real reason for hating Spider-Man.

What would make Venom a great villain is if he had a real reason for hating Spider-Man. Meaning- that Spidey actually did something wrong- not a failure as in Ben or Gwen's case- but Peter willfully doing something wrong- perhaps in a moment of weakness or hubris, resulting in the creation of Venom.

 

[Dragon]

I used to think the comics version of Brocks hatred for spider-man was weak until i read through this thread. now i think its kinda cool, he reminds me of one of those psychos who go after celebrities who have never actualy really done anything to him. kinda like the guy who killed John Lennon. in his mind it all makes sense, but to everybody else its retarted.

But this point also underlines just what a weak character Venom is. Because as with the Lennon killing, and other celebrity stalkings like Rebecca Schaefer, the killer is faceless and insignificant. The power of those tragedies is the destruction of lives due to mindless violence and the side effects of the concept of celebrity.

That's why Venom so quickly became a one-note character. After a while his only value became in his physical presence. Not his story or who he is (since he isn't even Eddie Brock anymore). Even the symbiote has become just a power source since it bonded with Peter and Eddie for specific reasons, but now simply connects with anyone (the **** )

 

[Dangerous]

For Venom, killing Spider-Man IS his ambition. Nothing more. And that's compounded by the fact he doesn't even have a real reason for hating Spider-Man.

What would make Venom a great villain is if he had a real reason for hating Spider-Man.

Ermm... Spidey dumped the symbiote? Thus it hates him for it.
See my above post.

 

[The Joker]

In Eddie's case his motivation is especially weak. And worse- his motivation is his only reason for being. In Ock, the Goblin etc.'s case, they want MORE than Spider-Man dead. They obsess over him because over time he's come to represent everything stopping them from achieving their ends. But- if any of them succeeded in killing Spidey, they would continue forward with their ambitions. They're 3 dimensional. For Venom, killing Spider-Man IS his ambition. Nothing more. And that's compounded by the fact he doesn't even have a real reason for hating Spider-Man.

 

[Dragon]

Ermm... Spidey dumped the symbiote? Thus it hates him for it.
See my above post.

Dude, I've read the comics. I know the story. Spidey "dumping' a creature that was trying to meld with him against his will isn't wrong on his part.

I'm saying Peter actually doing something wrong. For example, the flipside of the Sin-Eater thing. Say Spidey captured the wrong guy, but because of his rage over Jean DeWolfe's death, he refuses to see that Eddie's investigative work is truthful (Maybe the guy Spidey caught is A killer, but not THE killer). Say the real killer, still on the loose and wanting to silence Eddie, whose the only one who believes he's guilty, winds up killing a member of Eddie's family. That's what I mean by actual wrong on Spidey's part.

Back on the symbiote- there's a big problem there as well. I've always thought the symbiote concept was at least in part inspired by that Star Trek (Original series) episode where the scientist is marooned on this planet and there's an alien entity that sustains him. Eventually Kirk and the others make him realize that the entity is in love with him, which freaks him out until it takes over the body of a hot looking chick who's dying.

The point is, that the difference with the Trek story I'm talking about which IMO worked better than the symbiote thing, is that the entity actually had a personality. When the scientist guy rejected it, you could both understand his side, but also feel for the entity (also because it had a female voice).

But with Venom, the symbiote is just this glob. There's nothing to connect to with the character. It, like Venom period, is only a physical presence.

 

[Dark Spidey]

I agree that Venom is a one-dimensional villain. But I also believe that one dimension is enough to sustain this particular character.

Venom (original Brock incarnation) is an evil opposite. A dark reflection. A twisted mirror into Spidey's soul. Showing us what our hero, Peter Parker could be like, if he were a bad guy.

And although that's a simple concept. Isn't it also one that makes Venom the most relevant Spidey villain of them all?

 

[The Joker]

I agree that Venom is a one-dimensional villain. But I also believe that one dimension is enough to sustain this particular character.

I don't.

No villain who is considered to be A-class should be one dimensional.

Venom (original Brock incarnation) is an evil opposite. A dark reflection. A twisted mirror into Spidey's soul. Showing us what our hero, Peter Parker could be like, if he were a bad guy.

And although that's a simple concept. Isn't it also one that makes Venom the most relevant Spidey villain of them all?

I've never bought this. The only thing they have remotely in common is powers. Other than that, nothing.

Doctor Octopus is considered to be the evil Peter Parker. And that's not just because they both wear glasses. Peter and Otto have alot in common. Both were born and raised in middle class New York, were science geeks as kids, bullied in school, had no friends, unpopular with girls, lost a parent at a young age, both acquired an amazing power thru a radioactive lab accident due to their passion for science.

But Peter chose to use his great power with great responsibility. While Otto went to the other extreme, and perverts his power and scientific ability for his own selfish and evil gain.

Venom and Spidey haven't even got half that much in common.

 

[mre]

But this point also underlines just what a weak character Venom is. Because as with the Lennon killing, and other celebrity stalkings like Rebecca Schaefer, the killer is faceless and insignificant. The power of those tragedies is the destruction of lives due to mindless violence and the side effects of the concept of celebrity.

That's why Venom so quickly became a one-note character. After a while his only value became in his physical presence. Not his story or who he is (since he isn't even Eddie Brock anymore). Even the symbiote has become just a power source since it bonded with Peter and Eddie for specific reasons, but now simply connects with anyone (the **** )

Yes, Eddie wanted revenge on Spidey. He hated Spidey. But do we really know how much he hated him? How much of that was braught on by the symboit? Do we even know? We never even met Eddie in the comics untill after he got the suit.
He was in the church about to commit suicide. So his first action was NOT to get revenge on Spidey. It was the symboit that fine toned Eddie's anger and geared it more towards Spidey since it too hated Peter.
Without the symboit, I doubt Eddie would have seeked his revenge from Spider-Man at all.

And yes, that is what the symboit was originally supposed to be. A being that travelled from host to host. But then the popularity of Venom or Eddie grew, so they kept him as Eddie. Doesn't seem THAT much like a **** anymore now does it?

 

[Dangerous]

Dude, I've read the comics. I know the story. Spidey "dumping' a creature that was trying to meld with him against his will isn't wrong on his part.

I'm saying Peter actually doing something wrong. For example, the flipside of the Sin-Eater thing. Say Spidey captured the wrong guy, but because of his rage over Jean DeWolfe's death, he refuses to see that Eddie's investigative work is truthful (Maybe the guy Spidey caught is A killer, but not THE killer). Say the real killer, still on the loose and wanting to silence Eddie, whose the only one who believes he's guilty, winds up killing a member of Eddie's family. That's what I mean by actual wrong on Spidey's part.

Yes I realise that Eddie’s motivations could have been a lot stronger if things had gone differently w/ the Sin Eater story. What I was trying to explain in my previous posts was to go some way in elaborating/theorizing on the validity of ‘Venom’s’ hate. Eddies reasons are pretty weak true, but on his own he would not have gone on to become forever obsessed w/ killing PP, more likely he would have killed himself. Guess he just felt totally washed out over what happened, people kill themselves over less than that sometimes.
The symbiotes reasons for hating PP however, are much more valid. I think this often gets over looked. Their feelings and goals became fused and overlapped. Eddie was pissed off, but maybe in time he’d realise it was not all at PP, it was also at himself. Paired up w/ the symbiote though, all possible reason went out the window because the creature now took Eddie’s frustrations and directed it through it’s own distain towards PP.

By previously highlighting that the symbiote is an alien, I was seeking to ram home the idea that we basically don’t know how its mind works, its laws of reasoning, or how it views earth and its inhabitants. Also it was basically in love w/ PP then he ditched it, if this ever happens to you in the real world and girl you love ditches you, you either want to crawl up and die or turn into the Hulk and smash the world to bits. Basically it does not feel too good and there might be a fair bit of resentment.

Back on the symbiote- there's a big problem there as well. I've always thought the symbiote concept was at least in part inspired by that Star Trek (Original series) episode where the scientist is marooned on this planet and there's an alien entity that sustains him. Eventually Kirk and the others make him realize that the entity is in love with him, which freaks him out until it takes over the body of a hot looking chick who's dying.

The point is, that the difference with the Trek story I'm talking about which IMO worked better than the symbiote thing, is that the entity actually had a personality. When the scientist guy rejected it, you could both understand his side, but also feel for the entity (also because it had a female voice).

But with Venom, the symbiote is just this glob. There's nothing to connect to with the character. It, like Venom period, is only a physical presence.

The Star Trek thing is interesting, what’s the name of the episode?, I could go watch it on you tube…
Like I said, it (the symbiote) is an Alien after all. It would be a pretty lame alien if its emotions and human interactions were similar to ours and it had a personality w/ specific traits we could recognise.
Aliens are not supposed to be like us, a well designed alien should be mysterious and other worldly.
Something that we cannot understand 100%, and it definitely should not have a human type personality.

 

[Dark Spidey]

I don't.

No villain who is considered to be A-class should be one dimensional.



I've never bought this. The only thing they have remotely in common is powers. Other than that, nothing.

Doctor Octopus is considered to be the evil Peter Parker. And that's not just because they both wear glasses. Peter and Otto have alot in common. Both were born and raised in middle class New York, were science geeks as kids, bullied in school, had no friends, unpopular with girls, lost a parent at a young age, both acquired an amazing power thru a radioactive lab accident due to their passion for science.

But Peter chose to use his great power with great responsibility. While Otto went to the other extreme, and perverts his power and scientific ability for his own selfish and evil gain.

Venom and Spidey haven't even got half that much in common.

Yeah. I'll agree that Otto Octavius is the evil Peter Parker. But to most people Venom is considered the evil Spider-man.

As for no villain considered A-class should be one dimensional... why not?

Let's break it down. Norman Osborn: Has days where he wants to be a Father figure to Peter. When he wants to procure him as the heir of the Goblin legacy. Then again, he also has days when he just wants to destory him. And that's fine. That's added layers to the charcater. That's depth, right?

Otto Octavius: Here's a guy, who basically has a Spider-man complex. Call it ego, pride, whatever. He can't accept that he (a genius) keeps getting bested by this clown running around in a silly costume. To the point where he's blaming Spidey for his own shortcomings. Spidey has become the bane of his life. Coupled with the fact that with his incredible intellect, this guy had the potential to practically become Peter Parker. Again, that's complexity and it's great.

But Venom, Venom has no such complexity. He's one dimesnsional. But what is that dimension? Hatred. He is a character born out of his hate for Spidey. And it's because of this single motivation. That when we're watching Spidey and Venom fight, they're bringing the genre back to it's fundementals: Plain old Good versus Evil. In it's purest form. And that's why Venom works. And that's why he deserves his A-list ranking in the Spidey mythos.

 

[Dragon]

Yes I realise that Eddie’s motivations could have been a lot stronger if things had gone differently w/ the Sin Eater story. What I was trying to explain in my previous posts was to go some way in elaborating/theorizing on the validity of ‘Venom’s’ hate. Eddies reasons are pretty weak true, but on his own he would not have gone on to become forever obsessed w/ killing PP, more likely he would have killed himself. Guess he just felt totally washed out over what happened, people kill themselves over less than that sometimes.
The symbiotes reasons for hating PP however, are much more valid. I think this often gets over looked. Their feelings and goals became fused and overlapped. Eddie was pissed off, but maybe in time he’d realise it was not all at PP, it was also at himself. Paired up w/ the symbiote though, all possible reason went out the window because the creature now took Eddie’s frustrations and directed it through it’s own distain towards PP.

By previously highlighting that the symbiote is an alien, I was seeking to ram home the idea that we basically don’t know how its mind works, its laws of reasoning, or how it views earth and its inhabitants. Also it was basically in love w/ PP then he ditched it, if this ever happens to you in the real world and girl you love ditches you, you either want to crawl up and die or turn into the Hulk and smash the world to bits. Basically it does not feel too good and there might be a fair bit of resentment.



The Star Trek thing is interesting, what’s the name of the episode?, I could go watch it on you tube…
Like I said, it (the symbiote) is an Alien after all. It would be a pretty lame alien if its emotions and human interactions were similar to ours and it had a personality w/ specific traits we could recognise.
Aliens are not supposed to be like us, a well designed alien should be mysterious and other worldly.
Something that we cannot understand 100%, and it definitely should not have a human type personality.

The name of the Star Trek Ep I was speaking of is "Metamorphosis".

But about Eddie and the symbiote. The symbiote's emotions really are human. It's the simple desire for companionship. If it weren't there'd be no point. And its hatred of Peter (another very human emotion) is because Peter rejected it. All very human feelings. As well it should be. Even though in comics we see many alien races, their stories and feelings are almost always something wwe as humans can relate to. But like I said, since none of Marvel's writers ever went the extra mile and gave the symbiote a personality, the only thing we can connect to is Eddie, and his very shallow story, cheezy dialogue about eating brains and that nonsense.

 

[The Joker]

But to most people Venom is considered the evil Spider-man.

Yes, and they've failed to offer any valid reasons why. Hence why I dismiss it as mere blind fanboy love.

As for no villain considered A-class should be one dimensional... why not?

Because it makes for a weak villain. And Venom is a weak villain. Characterwise.

Let's break it down. Norman Osborn: Has days where he wants to be a Father figure to Peter. When he wants to procure him as the heir of the Goblin legacy. Then again, he also has days when he just wants to destory him. And that's fine. That's added layers to the charcater. That's depth, right?

Norman Osborn post clone saga is a joke. I wouldn't even try and defend what a worn out character he has become. He should have stayed 6ft under.

Norman Osborn from the Stan Lee/Gerry Conway days is what myself and Dragon are talking about here. And he was a powerful, ambitious business man, with a son, who took his research too far, and accidently turned himself into a madman with incredible strength. He went and used that power to establish himself as a kingpin of the underworld.

But, because of his wealth and importance, he adopted a persona that would protect him from the law. And Spider-Man foiled his schemes as the Goblin. Thus, developing a severe hatred of Spidey.

Then when he discovered Spidey's identity, it was made even worse when he learned he had been bested by a mere teenager.

Otto Octavius: Here's a guy, who basically has a Spider-man complex. Call it ego, pride, whatever. He can't accept that he (a genius) keeps getting bested by this clown running around in a silly costume. To the point where he's blaming Spidey for his own shortcomings. Spidey has become the bane of his life. Coupled with the fact that with his incredible intellect, this guy had the potential to practically become Peter Parker. Again, that's complexity and it's great.

Ock never EVER blamed Spider-Man for his short comings. He put Spider-Man's victories down to sheer luck. Spider-Man was a nuissance to him. Nothing more. But, over the years, Ock came to develop a warped sort of respect for Spider-Man as a worthy adversary.

Hence why he saved him from dying in the Web of Death arc. He wanted the distinguished pleasure of destroying his long time foe in a proper manner worthy of himself.

But make no mistake, Ock hated Spider-Man. And that hatred is justified. Unlike Brock's. Spider-Man actually did something to earn Ock's hatred.

But Venom, Venom has no such complexity. He's one dimesnsional. But what is that dimension? Hatred. He is a character born out of his hate for Spidey. And it's because of this single motivation. That when we're watching Spidey and Venom fight, they're bringing the genre back to it's fundementals: Plain old Good versus Evil. In it's purest form. And that's why Venom works. And that's why he deserves his A-list ranking in the Spidey mythos.

Venom does not deserve to be ranked as an A-Class villain, IMO. No way. A-class villains not only have to prove themselves as good villains, but also have a great background as to how and why they are what they are.

Brock fails on all fronts with that.

As has been well established, his motivations are weak, to the point where they're laughable. Second, for such a supposedly cunning and dangerous villain, he's not done anything of any major significance to Spidey over the years.

He knows his identity, and yet has failed to do anything substantial with it, other than be nothing but a glorified stalker. Nothing more.

Ock and Goblin have crossed the line with Spider-Man. Been involved in some of the greatest hallmark moments and tradgedies of his life.

Venom doesn't work, not for me anyway, because his entire reason for being is false. Which makes everything he does shallow and pointless.

As Dragon said, it would be much more interesting if Spidey had inadvertantly done something to hurt Brock. But he didn't. Brock's loserness is all self inflicted.

 

[Dangerous]

The symbiote's emotions really are human. It's the simple desire for companionship. If it weren't there'd be no point. And its hatred of Peter (another very human emotion) is because Peter rejected it. All very human feelings. As well it should be. Even though in comics we see many alien races, their stories and feelings are almost always something wwe as humans can relate to. But like I said, since none of Marvel's writers ever went the extra mile and gave the symbiote a personality, the only thing we can connect to is Eddie, and his very shallow story, cheezy dialogue about eating brains and that nonsense.

Personally I would argue that the symbiote’s main desire- ‘companionship’ as you put it, but which is in fact symbiosis, is not a human trait at all. Rather than become a companion to a person, the creature seeks to latch onto a human and sustain itself living off its hosts life-force. Like a vampire sucking the blood from a person it has corrupted, or a tick sucking the blood out of a dog. Pretty nasty really.
The creatures hate towards PP because he ditched it, is quite human though. This is obviously so we (the person reading) can understand the alien’s motivations on a basic level. I would say that this aspect of the symbiote is enough for it to take it’s place among all the other alien races we have ever seen in the MU as having something we can relate to. So no writer ever developed the symbiote a personality, but so what? Does a tick on the back of a dog have one? Did Dracula? Not really- he was just a bastard who liked feeding on people. The point is- Venom did ‘work’ as a great Spider-man villain for a few years in that he was fun to read from ASM#299-347. After that he had shown all his tricks and the writers took him in the wrong direction.

 

[Dangerous]

Venom does not deserve to be ranked as an A-Class villain, IMO. No way. A-class villains not only have to prove themselves as good villains, but also have a great background as to how and why they are what they are.

Brock fails on all fronts with that.

Not quite.

Venom was stronger, faster, had greater endurance, he knew EVERYTHING about PP and his presence did not trigger Spider-man’s Spider-sense. Who else can you say that off? Just to show he meant business he beat the crap outta Felicia (bastard) and traumatized MJ to the point that it would stay in her head for years to come and make here live in terror there after for a short period.
What made (old) Venom an A-class villain was the threat he presented, he might not have been as compelling a bad guy as Osborn or Octopus character wise, but he was easily as exciting to read in his early years because of his design (a bulked up power based character), and also because of all the cards he was holding. Brock did not need a great origin as you demand, because Venom was great fun to read in the early issues and thus justified his status and existence.

As has been well established, his motivations are weak, to the point where they're laughable. Second, for such a supposedly cunning and dangerous villain, he's not done anything of any major significance to Spidey over the years.

I used to think Venom/Brock’s motivations were weak but after thinking a bit more about it recently,
and specifically speaking about the symbiote component, I think it works perfect.
See my last post.

He knows his identity, and yet has failed to do anything substantial with it, other than be nothing but a glorified stalker. Nothing more.

Ock and Goblin have crossed the line with Spider-Man. Been involved in some of the greatest hallmark moments and tradgedies of his life.

He never fulfilled his prophecy true, and if you look at Venom’s criminal career as a whole from start to finish it does look like wasted potential. But this is because they did the wrong thing by resurrecting him and turning him into a good guy. Venom is (was) not a chump like say, Max Dillon.
He was not a super powered crook who does not really have a plan.
He had a plan and this together w/ the unique powers he had and the threat he presented was enough to sustain him as great character for a few years of publication.

See, eventually you have to call your chips in though- Venom is exactly the same as Morlun in his design as a villain. He has an OTP power level or combined attributes for a Spider-man enemy, and he is solely obsessed w/ killing the wall crawler too. Morlun worked as a great villain because he killed Spidey- the threat was real. Venom worked for the same reason but they went the other way w/ him- Spidey tricked Venom into thinking he was dead and left Venom content in this knowledge on some island.

If Venom had been left on that island to date and never reappeared in 616, then today it would be a valid opinion to hold that Venom was an all time great Spidey villain. It’s the return of Venom w/ the Carnage arc through to today that makes him a flawed character, and all the contradictory writing he has suffered. Personally I think changing hosts was the only place they could go w/ it and still have a legit character. Unfortunately they did not get round to that until 12 years after they should have though.

Venom doesn't work, not for me anyway, because his entire reason for being is false. Which makes everything he does shallow and pointless.

As Dragon said, it would be much more interesting if Spidey had inadvertantly done something to hurt Brock. But he didn't. Brock's loserness is all self inflicted.

Well the original Venom, the character they are about to revive in 2007 does not work Il grant you that, but obviously I think the opposite if we are talking about Venom circa 1988-1991. Here he most definitely does work for the reason’s I have previously elaborated on. He may not suit your demands of what you expect to be considered a great villain, but hey- it would be a bit boring if they were all cut from the same cloth.

He did not have the character depth of Norman Osborn but he did not need it because he was way more dangerous. Osborn might have known PP’s secret ID, but if we just compare Venom to Spidey in a physical rundown- he was SM’s superior in every way. For a short time PP lived in a constant state of alert not knowing when Venom might show up, and if he did PP knew it was a real possibility that if Venom got hold of him he could very easily rip one of his legs off and beat him around the head w/ it until he was dead.

 

[The Joker]

Not quite.

Venom was stronger, faster, had greater endurance, he knew EVERYTHING about PP and his presence did not trigger Spider-man’s Spider-sense. Who else can you say that off?

Exactly my point. He had all the tools to be great, and failed miserably. That's what makes Ock and Gobby head and shoulders above Venom and the rest of the rogues gallery. They were not landed with such great advantages. They earned their status by actually putting misery on Spidey the good old fashioned way.

Brock didn't plan to learn Spidey's identity like Goblin did, by implementing a plan to learn it. It was given to him on a silver plate. Nothing impressive about that. He didn't bring out the hero in Spidey like Ock did in ASM #3 or 31-33, or 53-56, or 88-90 etc. Spidey would run from Venom like a wuss.
Venom didn't enrich Peter as a character or a hero. Peter didn't rise to the challenge of Venom and find a way to defeat him, like any great villain does for the hero. He just ran.

Pathetic. No wonder Venom became popular with that kind of shoddy writing.

Just to show he meant business he beat the crap outta Felicia (bastard) and traumatized MJ to the point that it would stay in her head for years to come and make here live in terror there after for a short period.

You're over dramatizing it. He didn't beat the crap out of Felicia. She was landed a couple of punches. She wasn't even rendered unconcscious or in hospital. She just refused to say where Spidey is. So he smacked her around a bit.

He scared MJ. Wow, big deal ,when you compare that to Goblin killing Gwen, Ock kidnapping Betty, trashing May's home and causing her to have a stroke, putting Black Cat to the edge of death in hospital etc.

Scaring MJ and slapping BC around a bit?? Amateur night in dixie.

What made (old) Venom an A-class villain was the threat he presented, he might not have been as compelling a bad guy as Osborn or Octopus character wise, but he was easily as exciting to read in his early years because of his design (a bulked up power based character), and also because of all the cards he was holding. Brock did not need a great origin as you demand, because Venom was great fun to read in the early issues and thus justified his status and existence.

I'm not denying he was a fun read. Although, looking at Spidey acting like a wuss was not fun to me. Reminds me of how weak willed he is these days, too.

But as I said, Brock had all the ammo he needed, and ultimately achieved nothing. Ock and Gobby didn't have those advantages, and still managed to inflict some real nasty misery on Peter.

They are A-class villains.

I used to think Venom/Brock’s motivations were weak but after thinking a bit more about it recently,
and specifically speaking about the symbiote component, I think it works perfect.
See my last post.

I did. And I still don't buy it.

He never fulfilled his prophecy true, and if you look at Venom’s criminal career as a whole from start to finish it does look like wasted potential. But this is because they did the wrong thing by resurrecting him and turning him into a good guy. Venom is (was) not a chump like say, Max Dillon.
He was not a super powered crook who does not really have a plan.
He had a plan and this together w/ the unique powers he had and the threat he presented was enough to sustain him as great character for a few years of publication.

Electro may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but at least he is doing what he's doing for genuine reasons.

Venom's plan and motivation was built on a foundation of nonsense. And when something is built on a weak foundation, the entire structure is weak, too.

See, eventually you have to call your chips in though- Venom is exactly the same as Morlun in his design as a villain. He has an OTP power level or combined attributes for a Spider-man enemy, and he is solely obsessed w/ killing the wall crawler too. Morlun worked as a great villain because he killed Spidey- the threat was real. Venom worked for the same reason but they went the other way w/ him- Spidey tricked Venom into thinking he was dead and left Venom content in this knowledge on some island.

If Venom had been left on that island to date and never reappeared in 616, then today it would be a valid opinion to hold that Venom was an all time great Spidey villain. It’s the return of Venom w/ the Carnage arc through to today that makes him a flawed character, and all the contradictory writing he has suffered. Personally I think changing hosts was the only place they could go w/ it and still have a legit character. Unfortunately they did not get round to that until 12 years after they should have though.

Venom ran his course a long time ago. Ever since the 90's, it's been one cheap gimmick after another to try and justify keeping him around. A bunch of symbiote rip off characters, the anti hero rubbish etc.

All cheap nonsense to keep him around. Suddenly Venom 'forgot' his sole reason for being, and even teamed up at times with the one he believed to be evil and ruined his life. Talk about inconsistencey of character.

Well the original Venom, the character they are about to revive in 2007 does not work Il grant you that, but obviously I think the opposite if we are talking about Venom circa 1988-1991.

That is exactly how long the character should have lasted, IMO.

He did not have the character depth of Norman Osborn but he did not need it because he was way more dangerous.

Two things:

1. Of course he needed depth. Every A-class villain needs depth.
2. He was nowhere near as dangerous as Osborn. Comic book history should prove that a million times over to you. As I said above, compared to Ock and Gobby, Venom is an amateur in the villain stakes.

Osborn might have known PP’s secret ID, but if we just compare Venom to Spidey in a physical rundown- he was SM’s superior in every way. For a short time PP lived in a constant state of alert not knowing when Venom might show up, and if he did PP knew it was a real possibility that if Venom got hold of him he could very easily rip one of his legs off and beat him around the head w/ it until he was dead.

He was Peter's superior physically, and yet he has never seriously injured Peter to the point where his life was hanging in the balance. You keep saying he's better than Spidey in every way, physically, and yet he has never put some really serious pain on Peter.

That's what all Venom fans are like. Oh, he can do this, he can do that. He knows this, he knows that.

Well, that's nice. But tell me, what has he done with it??

 

[Dragon]

Personally I would argue that the symbiote’s main desire- ‘companionship’ as you put it, but which is in fact symbiosis, is not a human trait at all. Rather than become a companion to a person, the creature seeks to latch onto a human and sustain itself living off its hosts life-force. Like a vampire sucking the blood from a person it has corrupted, or a tick sucking the blood out of a dog. Pretty nasty really.
The creatures hate towards PP because he ditched it, is quite human though. This is obviously so we (the person reading) can understand the alien’s motivations on a basic level. I would say that this aspect of the symbiote is enough for it to take it’s place among all the other alien races we have ever seen in the MU as having something we can relate to. So no writer ever developed the symbiote a personality, but so what? Does a tick on the back of a dog have one? Did Dracula? Not really- he was just a bastard who liked feeding on people. The point is- Venom did ‘work’ as a great Spider-man villain for a few years in that he was fun to read from ASM#299-347. After that he had shown all his tricks and the writers took him in the wrong direction.

But let's remember that the symbiote didn't just want Peter for the life sustaining aspect. It WANTED to be with Peter. That's how Peter stopped Venom in the second story. By offering himself to the symbiote, which then ditched Eddie for Peter (BTW- that story was when I began to hate Venom).

Secondly, note that an emotional love relationship can also be viewed as symbiotic, as both individuals involved are giving and taking from each other for mutual benefit as well.

But I agree with you in that Venom was tolerable for the first 4 stories, which is my point. Being such a poorly developed character his shelf-life was short. But Marvel just kept pushing and pushing. And most importantly- since Venom was a weak character, the only way they could build him up was by tearing Peter down, making him an absolute coward and betraying his oath.

Again, that was never the case with the likes of Ock or the Goblin. Spidey could in fact become better with them- having to rise to the occassion, and yet they also weren't just villains that Spidey pummelled. A great hero-villain relationship makes them both shine. Not the case with Venom.

 

[e-three]

I wouldn't say that Venom is simply "evil Spider-Man." More like Spider-Man's opposite, his negative mirror image in a sense.

Superficially, the alien costume is a stark contrast to the red and blue Spidey outfit, not to mention Venom has a mouth and that ridiculous tongue. So visually he's Spider-Man's opposite (well, when Spidey is in his regular outfit, anyway).

Peter Parker and Eddie Brock both did something that screwed up their lives. Peter, a tv star on the rise, lost his uncle because he was to full of himself to do the right thing and stop the burglar when he had the chance. Eddie Brock, a star reporter on the rise, lost his career because he was so full of himself to the do the right thing (not to mention the smart thing) by checking out this Emil Gregg guy before starting his Sin-Eater confession series. As Eddie says in Amazing #300, his column in the Globe was read by millions, and he was a respected member of the fourth estate. He started his series on the Sin-Eater before he even met Emil Gregg (it's because of Eddie Brock's Sin-Eater articles that Gregg contacts him). So Brock was already successful, and it's not a stretch to say that the lure of bigger success blinded him so that the thought of the prestige and accolades that interviewing the Sin-Eater would bring him took precedence over being smart and checking facts. Like Peter, Eddie didn't think of the consequences, only "looking out for number one."

So while Peter and Eddie both made mistakes, their reaction to their mistakes takes them down different paths. Peter of course realizes that he screwed up, learns that with great power must also come great responsibility, and carries the guilt of Uncle Ben's death with him to this day. Eddie on the other hand refuses to take responsibility for his mistake. He's clearly self-centered. If you notice, he's not upset that Gregg lied to him...he's upset that the public found out that Gregg was a liar. He's not mad that his Sin-Eater turned out to be false...he's mad that his glorious career is gone. He cares only about himself, so much so that he can't be at fault. Brock can probably rationalize his blamelessness further by saying that the Globe wanted a big story so he provided it. Then they wanted him to reveal his source so he did. In his eyes, he did everything they told him so he did nothing wrong.

So Brock's career is over. He doesn't blame Gregg because for however brief it was, Gregg gave Brock even greater glory. Gregg was a stepping stone for Brock's success. Instead he blames Spider-Man for ruining his brief moment at the top, because he can't (or won't) blame himself. And again, who knows how much influence the symbiote provided to twist Brock's irrational hatred to a perceived rational one. The symbiote could very well have fed on Brock's refusal to blame himself for his own problems. The key to Eddie's character is NOT "he hates Spider-Man for a stupid reason" it's that Eddie stands for IRRESPONSIBILITY just as much as Peter stands for responsibility. So again, Venom is great power with NO responsibility.

Spider-Man uses his powers to help people; Venom uses his powers to help himself. Spider-Man is against killing; Venom not only kills, but rationalizes his acts of murder as Spider-Man's fault! After all, if it weren't for Spider-Man, Brock would still be "innocent." Venom "has" to kill the occasional person in order to stay free or escape so he can get revenge on Spider-Man. Spider-Man does what he does because he wants to expiate his guilt; Venom does what he does because he transferred his guilt to a scapegoat.

All of that makes Venom the "evil Spider-Man" (or like I said, Spider-Man's negative mirror image). Obviously I think Venom has little (not a lot, but some) more depth than he normally gets credit for, and I'm far from a blind Venom fanboy...actually, I'm more of a Doc Ock guy myself.

 

[Shockdingo]

Man reading all this makes me sad at what could have been. Still love Brock but darn it! He could have gone so much further

E-three: Wow, nice post dude, some good points.

edit: Hmm I just thought os something, to those posting above and such, do you think there is any possible way to save Eddie Brock's character, not him as Venom, but him as an individual single entity? Moving in a new direction? Changing views on life? Or just kicking the bucket?

 

[Dragon]

I wouldn't say that Venom is simply "evil Spider-Man." More like Spider-Man's opposite, his negative mirror image in a sense.

Superficially, the alien costume is a stark contrast to the red and blue Spidey outfit, not to mention Venom has a mouth and that ridiculous tongue. So visually he's Spider-Man's opposite (well, when Spidey is in his regular outfit, anyway).

Peter Parker and Eddie Brock both did something that screwed up their lives. Peter, a tv star on the rise, lost his uncle because he was to full of himself to do the right thing and stop the burglar when he had the chance. Eddie Brock, a star reporter on the rise, lost his career because he was so full of himself to the do the right thing (not to mention the smart thing) by checking out this Emil Gregg guy before starting his Sin-Eater confession series. As Eddie says in Amazing #300, his column in the Globe was read by millions, and he was a respected member of the fourth estate. He started his series on the Sin-Eater before he even met Emil Gregg (it's because of Eddie Brock's Sin-Eater articles that Gregg contacts him). So Brock was already successful, and it's not a stretch to say that the lure of bigger success blinded him so that the thought of the prestige and accolades that interviewing the Sin-Eater would bring him took precedence over being smart and checking facts. Like Peter, Eddie didn't think of the consequences, only "looking out for number one."

So while Peter and Eddie both made mistakes, their reaction to their mistakes takes them down different paths. Peter of course realizes that he screwed up, learns that with great power must also come great responsibility, and carries the guilt of Uncle Ben's death with him to this day. Eddie on the other hand refuses to take responsibility for his mistake. He's clearly self-centered. If you notice, he's not upset that Gregg lied to him...he's upset that the public found out that Gregg was a liar. He's not mad that his Sin-Eater turned out to be false...he's mad that his glorious career is gone. He cares only about himself, so much so that he can't be at fault. Brock can probably rationalize his blamelessness further by saying that the Globe wanted a big story so he provided it. Then they wanted him to reveal his source so he did. In his eyes, he did everything they told him so he did nothing wrong.

So Brock's career is over. He doesn't blame Gregg because for however brief it was, Gregg gave Brock even greater glory. Gregg was a stepping stone for Brock's success. Instead he blames Spider-Man for ruining his brief moment at the top, because he can't (or won't) blame himself. And again, who knows how much influence the symbiote provided to twist Brock's irrational hatred to a perceived rational one. The symbiote could very well have fed on Brock's refusal to blame himself for his own problems. The key to Eddie's character is NOT "he hates Spider-Man for a stupid reason" it's that Eddie stands for IRRESPONSIBILITY just as much as Peter stands for responsibility. So again, Venom is great power with NO responsibility.

Spider-Man uses his powers to help people; Venom uses his powers to help himself. Spider-Man is against killing; Venom not only kills, but rationalizes his acts of murder as Spider-Man's fault! After all, if it weren't for Spider-Man, Brock would still be "innocent." Venom "has" to kill the occasional person in order to stay free or escape so he can get revenge on Spider-Man. Spider-Man does what he does because he wants to expiate his guilt; Venom does what he does because he transferred his guilt to a scapegoat.

All of that makes Venom the "evil Spider-Man" (or like I said, Spider-Man's negative mirror image). Obviously I think Venom has little (not a lot, but some) more depth than he normally gets credit for, and I'm far from a blind Venom fanboy...actually, I'm more of a Doc Ock guy myself.

Venom is only the "Evil spider-Man" on the most simplistic and superficial levels. Again because of the lack of development vs. Peter, this title is undeserved.

Had Venom been written as more than a one note character- had they given him a life outside of his pursuit of revenge (and the Lethal Protector crap)- for example, having him maintain a secret identity- have him try to establish a life as Eddie Brock aside from being Venom- have him- as with the spidey 3 movie, trying to achieve the things he envies Peter Parker for, we might be onto something.

If for example, Eddie tried to live at times on the straight and narrow, but due to both circumstance and his own flaws he couldn't maintain that life, he could be a really interesting character. And again, if he existed due to a wrong Peter himself had done to Eddie, and let's say Spidey encountered Venom often because of his own guilt over Venom's creation and an obsessive need to bring him down. Then I think we'd have the makings of a great A-List villain.

 

[Dragon]

Not quite.

Venom was stronger, faster, had greater endurance, he knew EVERYTHING about PP and his presence did not trigger Spider-man’s Spider-sense. Who else can you say that off?

That's a big part of the problem. Simply making him invincible is a cheat. And its lazy writing. As I've said before, Venom never has to try harder, become a greater threat (Meaning the wirters have to be creative) because he's unstoppable coming out the gate. Every other great villain has vulnerabilities and can be beaten- yet they are still powerful threats. Any character who is presented as unbeatable becomes boring after awhile.

 

[Dangerous]

Exactly my point. He had all the tools to be great, and failed miserably. That's what makes Ock and Gobby head and shoulders above Venom and the rest of the rogues gallery. They were not landed with such great advantages. They earned their status by actually putting misery on Spidey the good old fashioned way.

Ock and GG are great but I would not say they are above everyone.
Hobgoblin/Kingsley was also just as great.

Brock didn't plan to learn Spidey's identity like Goblin did, by implementing a plan to learn it. It was given to him on a silver plate. Nothing impressive about that. He didn't bring out the hero in Spidey like Ock did in ASM #3 or 31-33, or 53-56, or 88-90 etc. Spidey would run from Venom like a wuss.
Venom didn't enrich Peter as a character or a hero. Peter didn't rise to the challenge of Venom and find a way to defeat him, like any great villain does for the hero. He just ran.

Pathetic. No wonder Venom became popular with that kind of shoddy writing.

You might call it shoddy writing, but I think the reason Spidey did not come up w/ a conclusive way of defeating Venom that would stop him for any length of time was because Venom was pretty damn hard to deal with! Rather than ‘How do I defeat him?, early encounters were more like ‘How do I survive and protect my family?’ scenarios. I would say Peter did rise to the challenge because eventually he figured out a way to trick Venom into believing he was dead.

I'm not denying he was a fun read. Although, looking at Spidey acting like a wuss was not fun to me. Reminds me of how weak willed he is these days, too.

But as I said, Brock had all the ammo he needed, and ultimately achieved nothing. Ock and Gobby didn't have those advantages, and still managed to inflict some real nasty misery on Peter.

They are A-class villains.

I am aware of Ock and GG credentials, but re: Osborn for example- he was around from ASM#14-122, developing as a character over all that time, by that stage after almost ten years of publication he achieved his worst ever strike against PP/SM. Osborn’s character could develop over the years as his mental health deteriorated and the w/ his relationship w/ his son, and w/ Doc Ock his main evolution was about the development of his relationship w/ Spider-man and his growing distain for him.

Originally Venom was not supposed to be around for 10 years plus, after ASM#347 Venom/Brock was intended to be kept retired by Michelinie, but Venom blew up etc etc. So in his initial run, he may not have achieved what GG and Ock did but he was never intended to. He was an exciting enemy, more powerful than any other regular Spidey foe PP/SM had ever faced before and he was fun to read. I think the means justified the end. Was he an A-class villain?- I say yes. Things aren’t always black and white.

I did. And I still don't buy it.

Fair enough, that’s how I feel tho.

Electro may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but at least he is doing what he's doing for genuine reasons.

Venom's plan and motivation was built on a foundation of nonsense. And when something is built on a weak foundation, the entire structure is weak, too.

Ok well I have already gone over this stuff but ‘foundation of nonsense’? I don’t agree.
You know,- in the real world men kill their wife’s/boss’/co-workers over much less than what Brock considered PP responsible for, how ever wrong he might have been. He was nut job that’s all.
These people exist, one day they seem normal the next something happens to them, maybe not something particularly bad but they go buy a shotgun and kill someone.

The world is not always a logical place. These people exist, you need to think about it a bit more.
Plus the symbiote’s hate toward PP/SM was much more grounded and logical.
It took Brock’s frustrations and made them work to it’s own ends.
I don’t see what is so nonsensical about all this.

Venom ran his course a long time ago. Ever since the 90's, it's been one cheap gimmick after another to try and justify keeping him around. A bunch of symbiote rip off characters, the anti hero rubbish etc.

All cheap nonsense to keep him around. Suddenly Venom 'forgot' his sole reason for being, and even teamed up at times with the one he believed to be evil and ruined his life. Talk about inconsistencey of character.

Yes I am aware of all of this and agree, you are now re-iterating points I have already gone over in my last post or two.

Two things:

1. Of course he needed depth. Every A-class villain needs depth.

In your mind maybe, your definition of an A-class villain, but not for me.
I guess it depends how you view what comprises a top tier foe.
How about achieving many of them are actually striving for and killing Spidey? That would have to make them pretty damn good wouldn’t you say?

Morlun did this. He had no depth.
For me lack of character depth does not necessarily prohibit a super villain from being an A-class super villain. Fact is Venom was one of the most dangerous foes PP/SM had ever faced.
I know that might seem a bit of an empty statement considering he wound up basically achieving nothing, but he had the tools and inclination, he just did not quite get it together.
That does not mean Venom pre ASM#347 is not totally self validated and works as a great villain.

 

[Dangerous]

But let's remember that the symbiote didn't just want Peter for the life sustaining aspect. It WANTED to be with Peter. That's how Peter stopped Venom in the second story. By offering himself to the symbiote, which then ditched Eddie for Peter (BTW- that story was when I began to hate Venom).

Yeah, I thought that was a really cool way to beat Venom that time.

Secondly, note that an emotional love relationship can also be viewed as symbiotic, as both individuals involved are giving and taking from each other for mutual benefit as well.

Yes, but the difference is an emotional love relationship is also about helping out and sometimes just being there for the other person to pick up the pieces even when there is nothing in it for you.
As such I don’t think you can really call it symbiotic relationship because that equates to just looking out for number one.

But I agree with you in that Venom was tolerable for the first 4 stories, which is my point. Being such a poorly developed character his shelf-life was short. But Marvel just kept pushing and pushing.

Yup..

And most importantly- since Venom was a weak character, the only way they could build him up was by tearing Peter down, making him an absolute coward and betraying his oath.

By that stage, I assume you are talking about ASM#375, yeah that was lame.
PP/SM would never have done that. Letting Venom run off, but I agree that the writing was crap by then. Venom could only work for a few arcs because of his integral design limitations.

Again, that was never the case with the likes of Ock or the Goblin. Spidey could in fact become better with them- having to rise to the occassion, and yet they also weren't just villains that Spidey pummelled. A great hero-villain relationship makes them both shine. Not the case with Venom.

Personally I would say that while the first four Venom Vs Spidey battles in ASM did perhaps not always show PP/SM at his best it was obviously a very interesting relationship shared between the two and for me this is why it made/makes for compelling reading. About Spidey running, its important to note that he did not keep running, he did every so often figure out ways to stop Venom -#317/347 etc.
It’s just he was facing a type of foe he had never faced before, he needed to gather himself.
So he occasionally ran, so what.

 

[Dragon]

Yes, but the difference is an emotional love relationship is also about helping out and sometimes just being there for the other person to pick up the pieces even when there is nothing in it for you.
As such I don’t think you can really call it symbiotic relationship because that equates to just looking out for number one.

There are several symbiotic relationships. one in which two join together for the benefit of each is called "mutualism'. That's what love relatinship is.

By that stage, I assume you are talking about ASM#375, yeah that was lame.
PP/SM would never have done that. Letting Venom run off, but I agree that the writing was crap by then. Venom could only work for a few arcs because of his integral design limitations.
Personally I would say that while the first four Venom Vs Spidey battles in ASM did perhaps not always show PP/SM at his best it was obviously a very interesting relationship shared between the two and for me this is why it made/makes for compelling reading. About Spidey running, its important to note that he did not keep running, he did every so often figure out ways to stop Venom -#317/347 etc.
It’s just he was facing a type of foe he had never faced before, he needed to gather himself.
So he occasionally ran, so what.

Peter "won" in ASM #347 by running. Not by defeating Venom, but making Venom think he was dead. In ASM #375 he laid down and took it in the ass. In Spectacular Spider-Man #5 he let venom escape and forced Eddie against his will to rejoin with the symbiote. Even the win in ASM #317 Spidey laid down. Repeatedly Spidey let a killer run loose rather than doing what he should have done, which is render him harmless.

 

[The Joker]

Ock and GG are great but I would not say they are above everyone.
Hobgoblin/Kingsley was also just as great.

Oh, come on. What's Hobgoblin done that puts him on their level?? Yes, he's a great villain, but he's not on Ock and Gobby's level.

You might call it shoddy writing, but I think the reason Spidey did not come up w/ a conclusive way of defeating Venom that would stop him for any length of time was because Venom was pretty damn hard to deal with! Rather than ‘How do I defeat him?, early encounters were more like ‘How do I survive and protect my family?’ scenarios. I would say Peter did rise to the challenge because eventually he figured out a way to trick Venom into believing he was dead.

That's not a defeat. A defeat is when the villain is actually beaten. Not tricked into thinking they've won. Was Peter really dumb enough to believe that Venom would stay forever on some island, and never ever find out somehow that Spider-Man is still alive??

Classic crappy writing.

I am aware of Ock and GG credentials, but re: Osborn for example- he was around from ASM#14-122, developing as a character over all that time, by that stage after almost ten years of publication he achieved his worst ever strike against PP/SM. Osborn’s character could develop over the years as his mental health deteriorated and the w/ his relationship w/ his son, and w/ Doc Ock his main evolution was about the development of his relationship w/ Spider-man and his growing distain for him.

Yes, and did you notice the wonderful development Ock and Goblin got with each appearance?? Every time they re-appeared they were more dangerous than before, forcing Peter to up his game each time.

And there was some major consequences with each encounter. Peter grew and learned a lesson with each encounter with Ock and Goblin. They both became so dangerous, that each villain had a showdown with Spidey that culminated in the death of someone Peter cared for.

With Venom, it was the same old scenario over and over. Stalk Spidey, fight Spidey, Spidey escapes Venom. Venom comes back again and the process is repeated.

Originally Venom was not supposed to be around for 10 years plus, after ASM#347 Venom/Brock was intended to be kept retired by Michelinie, but Venom blew up etc etc. So in his initial run, he may not have achieved what GG and Ock did but he was never intended to. He was an exciting enemy, more powerful than any other regular Spidey foe PP/SM had ever faced before and he was fun to read. I think the means justified the end. Was he an A-class villain?- I say yes. Things aren’t always black and white.

But, he WAS around for more than 10 years. Where is all this development he could have gotten?? Where did he establish himself as an actual worthy villain who can do more than be a stalker??

It never happened.

You may see him as an A-class villain, but I don't. Takes more than some fancy powers and a cool look to earn that status, IMO. If that's all it took, most of Spidey's rogues gallery would be A-class.

Ok well I have already gone over this stuff but ‘foundation of nonsense’? I don’t agree.
You know,- in the real world men kill their wife’s/boss’/co-workers over much less than what Brock considered PP responsible for, how ever wrong he might have been. He was nut job that’s all.
These people exist, one day they seem normal the next something happens to them, maybe not something particularly bad but they go buy a shotgun and kill someone.

But people who kill their wives or co-workers have a relationship with their victims. They know them. They see them every day. Like the celebrity stalkers who obsess over their idols.

Spider-Man was nothing to Brock. He didn't give a damn about him before all this. Brock was just a reporter who screwed up. As was already said, it would have been much better if Spider-Man had INADVERTANTLY done something to hurt Brock. But, he didn't. Which makes Brock's entire reason for being weak as hell.

The world is not always a logical place. These people exist, you need to think about it a bit more.

There's illogical and then there's stupid. Killing a celebrity you obsess over because they didn't sign an autograph for you is illogical and psychilogically scary and real.

Killing your garbage man because you threw a million dollars in the trash, and then your garbage man dumped it, is stupid.

And that's exactly the same type of scenario with Brock. Spider-Man and Brock were nothing to eachother. Spidey was not in Brock's way at all for writing a proper story.

Brock made the wrong descisions. Nobody else. Brock made the screw up. Nobody else. So, to blame Spider-Man is not illogical, it's ******ed.

In your mind maybe, your definition of an A-class villain, but not for me.

Then, I guess we have different standards of what makes a decent villain.

I guess it depends how you view what comprises a top tier foe.
How about achieving many of them are actually striving for and killing Spidey? That would have to make them pretty damn good wouldn’t you say?

That depends. If some thug gets a lucky shot at Spidey and ends up killing him, that doesn't make him A-class.

Morlun did this. He had no depth.
For me lack of character depth does not necessarily prohibit a super villain from being an A-class super villain.

Morlun has not got a long running feud with Spidey. He doesn't blame Spidey for anything personal. Although, he is a great example of showing how ineffective Venom is as a villain. In just his second appearance, he killed Spidey, and he's got all the knowledge and physical superiority that Venom has.

Fact is Venom was one of the most dangerous foes PP/SM had ever faced.
I know that might seem a bit of an empty statement considering he wound up basically achieving nothing, but he had the tools and inclination, he just did not quite get it together.
That does not mean Venom pre ASM#347 is not totally self validated and works as a great villain.

You hit the nail on the head there. He's had years to get his act together. And he never has. He may be dangerous, but he sure never shows effectively.

As Dragon also said, a foe who seems invincible and unbeatable get's real boring after a while. Venom is a one trick pony.

As for being self validated and a great villain, comic book evidence proves nothing could be further from the truth. You've just stated it yourself that he's achieved nothing. That's not a great villain for one who's considered to be A-class.

All he is is eye candy.