Comics "Dark Side of the Spider" debuts at Spidey Kicks Butt!

[Jack O'Lantern]

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a bad character, just bad writing. Venom is a victim of this. On the surface, he had A LOT going for him.

Knowledge of Peter's ID? Check.
A cool look? Check.
Power to take Spidey down for good? Check.

But he wasnt built for the "long haul."
Character development? No check.
Motivation that wouldnt grow old over time? No check.

Its too bad that Marvel didnt intend for Brock to stick around for long, other wise they would have written him better in the beginning. But as we all know, they were going to have the symbiote roam the Marvel universe, so they didnt need Eddie to be a compelling character. He was doomed from the start.

 

[Dark Spidey]

I wouldn't say that Venom is simply "evil Spider-Man." More like Spider-Man's opposite, his negative mirror image in a sense.

Superficially, the alien costume is a stark contrast to the red and blue Spidey outfit, not to mention Venom has a mouth and that ridiculous tongue. So visually he's Spider-Man's opposite (well, when Spidey is in his regular outfit, anyway).

Peter Parker and Eddie Brock both did something that screwed up their lives. Peter, a tv star on the rise, lost his uncle because he was to full of himself to do the right thing and stop the burglar when he had the chance. Eddie Brock, a star reporter on the rise, lost his career because he was so full of himself to the do the right thing (not to mention the smart thing) by checking out this Emil Gregg guy before starting his Sin-Eater confession series. As Eddie says in Amazing #300, his column in the Globe was read by millions, and he was a respected member of the fourth estate. He started his series on the Sin-Eater before he even met Emil Gregg (it's because of Eddie Brock's Sin-Eater articles that Gregg contacts him). So Brock was already successful, and it's not a stretch to say that the lure of bigger success blinded him so that the thought of the prestige and accolades that interviewing the Sin-Eater would bring him took precedence over being smart and checking facts. Like Peter, Eddie didn't think of the consequences, only "looking out for number one."

So while Peter and Eddie both made mistakes, their reaction to their mistakes takes them down different paths. Peter of course realizes that he screwed up, learns that with great power must also come great responsibility, and carries the guilt of Uncle Ben's death with him to this day. Eddie on the other hand refuses to take responsibility for his mistake. He's clearly self-centered. If you notice, he's not upset that Gregg lied to him...he's upset that the public found out that Gregg was a liar. He's not mad that his Sin-Eater turned out to be false...he's mad that his glorious career is gone. He cares only about himself, so much so that he can't be at fault. Brock can probably rationalize his blamelessness further by saying that the Globe wanted a big story so he provided it. Then they wanted him to reveal his source so he did. In his eyes, he did everything they told him so he did nothing wrong.

So Brock's career is over. He doesn't blame Gregg because for however brief it was, Gregg gave Brock even greater glory. Gregg was a stepping stone for Brock's success. Instead he blames Spider-Man for ruining his brief moment at the top, because he can't (or won't) blame himself. And again, who knows how much influence the symbiote provided to twist Brock's irrational hatred to a perceived rational one. The symbiote could very well have fed on Brock's refusal to blame himself for his own problems. The key to Eddie's character is NOT "he hates Spider-Man for a stupid reason" it's that Eddie stands for IRRESPONSIBILITY just as much as Peter stands for responsibility. So again, Venom is great power with NO responsibility.

Spider-Man uses his powers to help people; Venom uses his powers to help himself. Spider-Man is against killing; Venom not only kills, but rationalizes his acts of murder as Spider-Man's fault! After all, if it weren't for Spider-Man, Brock would still be "innocent." Venom "has" to kill the occasional person in order to stay free or escape so he can get revenge on Spider-Man. Spider-Man does what he does because he wants to expiate his guilt; Venom does what he does because he transferred his guilt to a scapegoat.

All of that makes Venom the "evil Spider-Man" (or like I said, Spider-Man's negative mirror image). Obviously I think Venom has little (not a lot, but some) more depth than he normally gets credit for, and I'm far from a blind Venom fanboy...actually, I'm more of a Doc Ock guy myself.

After reading this post, I find it hard not to think of Venom as being a "three-dimensional character".

 

[vegeta21]

After reading this post, I find it hard not to think of Venom as being a "three-dimensional character".

I second that!

 

[Dangerous]

Peter "won" in ASM #347 by running. Not by defeating Venom, but making Venom think he was dead. In ASM #375 he laid down and took it in the ass. In Spectacular Spider-Man #5 he let venom escape and forced Eddie against his will to rejoin with the symbiote. Even the win in ASM #317 Spidey laid down. Repeatedly Spidey let a killer run loose rather than doing what he should have done, which is render him harmless.

I think I should make something explicitly clear to start with-
I am only arguing the validity of Venom’s first four storylines. After this point as I have previously stated, Venom should have been left well alone (ASM#375 was very dumb).
Since what made Venom work as a villain was intrinsically linked w/ his design limitations, it meant he could only be taken seriously for a short time. When Venom returned for the Carnage storyline onwards, not much made sense. Spidey ran and also sometimes took it in the butt- Ouch!

Re: ASM#317-Regading when Spidey ‘lay down’ instead of doing what he should have done and taking Venom in, I assume you are talking about the end of the comic when Venom is left severely weakened post battle and PP just walks way in the opposite direction. I agree it was odd, but it did not detract from Venom being a great enemy.
I never said these stories were perfect just that they were entertaining to read and Venom made a great villain.

Re: #347- Here PP/SM did what he had to do to stop Venom.
Since all his powers were rendered useless against this foe, SM was forced to out wit Brock. If Venom was dumb enough to buy it without definitive proof, which he was, then it worked. By this point Spidey understood that innocent people only died by Venom if they got in the way of his cause, so if SM made Brock think he was dead then theoretically he would never harm anyone again.

Of course, in doing this Spidey is leaving a murderer to roam free on vacation, and that is where the story (if you take it on it’s initial face value) is flawed. This could have been fixed though if in #348 PP mused to himself about the FF going out to collect and incarcerate Brock and we saw a few panels of this. In other words this would allude that he had a clean up plan by the end of #347.

So despite that massive question mark hanging over #347 it does not spoil the story for me just because it is not answered immediately. It’s w/ Venom not being imprisoned and his subsequent return where I believe the Venom saga went rapidly down hill.

 

[Dangerous]

Oh, come on. What's Hobgoblin done that puts him on their level?? Yes, he's a great villain, but he's not on Ock and Gobby's level.

First off- He hijacked and upgraded the persona, costume and weapons of arguably Spidey’s greatest and most deadly foe of all time. He modified the original Goblin formula so that he would maintain Osborn’s strength, durability and reflexes but without the downside of insanity. Pretty cool don’t you think?

Second- After narrowly being beaten by Spider-man and fleeing the scene, Hobby took a more intelligent perspective (thusly distinguishing himself from GG and Ock) in concluding that maybe it would be better if he did not do everything first hand. The results of this….

Third- Proved he also had the knowledge and techniques to execute the complex brainwashing of a couple of unlucky persons into becoming his lackeys. How many villain’s do you know of who have firstly not only been able to take this crucial step back from the action and think of things logically, in terms of would it be better to get someone else to do this for me?, but secondly actually have the means to employ such techniques while also masterfully deeming that they do your bidding while in disguise and alluding to be you?

This helped to create a kind of mythic and supernatural identity for Hobgoblin, and was a big part of why the Hobgoblin Saga prior to Stern’s exit was a superb showcase for one of Spidey’s greatest foes.

That's not a defeat. A defeat is when the villain is actually beaten. Not tricked into thinking they've won. Was Peter really dumb enough to believe that Venom would stay forever on some island, and never ever find out somehow that Spider-Man is still alive??

Classic crappy writing.

I disagree.

Point is, however it was done, Spider-man did neutralize the threat Venom posed by the end of #347.
Did he ‘defeat’ him completely? No, but that could have been addressed in the issues that followed (see my last post).

Yes, and did you notice the wonderful development Ock and Goblin got with each appearance?? Every time they re-appeared they were more dangerous than before, forcing Peter to up his game each time.

And there was some major consequences with each encounter. Peter grew and learned a lesson with each encounter with Ock and Goblin. They both became so dangerous, that each villain had a showdown with Spidey that culminated in the death of someone Peter cared for.

True, but before ASM#90 and #121 respectively, were not GG and Ock already great and dangerous foes? Surely it was not these two events on there own that represented the threat Osborn and Octopus presented to PP/SM? They were great characters prior to these issues because of the danger they posed and also because of how testing it was to fight them both them, and in the case of GG the personal info he had on Spidey. The same reasons Venom worked in his early appearances.

Goblin killing Gwen was more of an indication of the danger of PP’s id being known to one of his worst enemies bore, than the danger Octopus posed to those close to Peter.
After all, Capt Stacy dieing was just bad luck, an accident.
Octopus did not intend to kill him Stacy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and was a victim of the was the same danger that all members of the public could face from falling debris caused by super powered adversaries fighting atop of buildings. All of Spidey’s enemies could cause that type of tragedy including Venom.

With Venom, it was the same old scenario over and over. Stalk Spidey, fight Spidey, Spidey escapes Venom. Venom comes back again and the process is repeated.

But, he WAS around for more than 10 years. Where is all this development he could have gotten?? Where did he establish himself as an actual worthy villain who can do more than be a stalker??

It never happened.

I know, we are agreeing on this part.
Venom’s criminal career as a whole sucks ass.
Considering all the benefits he had over every other foe, he got nowhere.

After a time there was a distinct and predictable pattern to how the Spidey Vs Venom encounters would play out. However I am not trying to convince you that Venom’s authority as an A-class villain is based on a review of his entire career, what I am saying is that for a short time, in his first four arcs he was an A-class villain.

See, prior to Doctor Octopus really getting the hooks in on PP, by doing things like inadvertently causing the death of Capt Stacy and conning/ almost marrying Aunt May, what great strikes had Ock had over Spidey besides unmasking him in #12 and giving Spidey some of his toughest ever fights, sometimes beating SM? These things that defined him as a great villain prior to ASM#89 were the same cards that Venom held in his first four story arcs. You might argue that in order to be an A-class the villain, Venom would have to have to exhibit a more valid reason for hating PP, or at least the Eddie Brock component would, but as I have already explained the symbiote had a more than valid reason to hate PP. You could also argue that Doc Ock actually managed to de-mask Spider-man on his own personal merit, but that argument would be floored because back in ASM#12 Spidey was severely weakened as he was suffering w/ a viral infection.

But people who kill their wives or co-workers have a relationship with their victims. They know them. They see them every day. Like the celebrity stalkers who obsess over their idols.

Sometimes though, they are just nut jobs who just get it into their heads that a name on a page is responsible for their pain. So they go out and find/kill that person. The human condition does not always have an identifiable or logical pattern. Take psychopaths for example, they have no concept of right/wrong, so if they don’t like he way someone talks to them in library they might follow them home and kill them. Eddie Brock was clearly unstable (when he bonded w/ the alien) but it’s futile to try and evaluate to what degree. We could if it was PP because we know everything about him, but what did we know about Brock prior to Venom?, not a lot.

Spider-Man was nothing to Brock. He didn't give a damn about him before all this. Brock was just a reporter who screwed up. As was already said, it would have been much better if Spider-Man had INADVERTANTLY done something to hurt Brock. But, he didn't. Which makes Brock's entire reason for being weak as hell.

Brock was pissed off w/ what had happened.
It was not the end of the world true, but some people make a bigger deal out of things than others.
Plus he was clearly an obsessive nut job, plus the symbiote corrupted him and fused its own desires and hate onto him. He excepted the symbiote because of what it offered him.

Brock made the wrong descisions. Nobody else. Brock made the screw up. Nobody else. So, to blame Spider-Man is not illogical, it's ******ed.

True, but why can’t you except that Eddie Brock was clearly not of sound mind or mental stability?
The symbiote sensed this and thats why it went to him. They both got to help each other out.
The alien would get back at Parker, and Brock would get to exersize his misplaced rage and desire for revenge. The symbiote was not about to point out to Brock that it was illogical, it wanted to use his emotion to turn into physical strength to get back at PP.
It is a simple concept and is not ******ed.

Morlun has not got a long running feud with Spidey. He doesn't blame Spidey for anything personal. Although, he is a great example of showing how ineffective Venom is as a villain. In just his second appearance, he killed Spidey, and he's got all the knowledge and physical superiority that Venom has.

Yes and Morlun also validates that a villain does NOT need character depth to an effective or great enemy of Spider-man’s. A mis-conception and that you have been trying define as a pre-requisite to all enemies who could be considered such, including Venom.

You hit the nail on the head there. He's had years to get his act together. And he never has. He may be dangerous, but he sure never shows effectively.

As Dragon also said, a foe who seems invincible and unbeatable get's real boring after a while. Venom is a one trick pony.

I realise this why do you keep reminding me.???
After #347 he should have stayed in retirement, but that does not change that in his first four arcs he works as a great villain.

 

[The Joker]

First off- He hijacked and upgraded the persona, costume and weapons of arguably Spidey’s greatest and most deadly foe of all time. He modified the original Goblin formula so that he would maintain Osborn’s strength, durability and reflexes but without the downside of insanity. Pretty cool don’t you think?

Cool, yes. Impressive?? Not really, considering Norman designed and invented them in the first place. He's just feeding off someone elses creation and persona.

Second- After narrowly being beaten by Spider-man and fleeing the scene, Hobby took a more intelligent perspective (thusly distinguishing himself from GG and Ock) in concluding that maybe it would be better if he did not do everything first hand. The results of this….

GG and Ock took this approach too before. They've stepped back, let others do their dirty work. Not directly confronted Spider-Man themselves.

So, this again was nothing unique to Hobby.

Third- Proved he also had the knowledge and techniques to execute the complex brainwashing of a couple of unlucky persons into becoming his lackeys. How many villain’s do you know of who have firstly not only been able to take this crucial step back from the action and think of things logically, in terms of would it be better to get someone else to do this for me?, but secondly actually have the means to employ such techniques while also masterfully deeming that they do your bidding while in disguise and alluding to be you?

Ock and Green Goblin don't need to brain wash anyone into working for them. If they want lackeys, they'll get them. They don't have to brain wash them to get them to obey. They simply give their orders.

Look at the group of mercenaries Ock hired in his Master Planner days, for example.

This helped to create a kind of mythic and supernatural identity for Hobgoblin, and was a big part of why the Hobgoblin Saga prior to Stern’s exit was a superb showcase for one of Spidey’s greatest foes.

But nothing very unique for the standard quota of villainy set by Ock and Goblin.

I disagree.

Point is, however it was done, Spider-man did neutralize the threat Venom posed by the end of #347.
Did he ‘defeat’ him completely? No, but that could have been addressed in the issues that followed (see my last post).

Venom was not neutrailized. He was not defeated. He was free to do what ever he wanted. That's like someone going into the witness protection from the mob or something.

They can't hurt their intended victim if they cannot find them. Same deal with Venom. He thought Spider-Man was gone. When he could have very easily learned he was alive.

Spider-Man isn't exactly the kind of hero who doesn't generate news headlines and attention.

True, but before ASM#90 and #121 respectively, were not GG and Ock already great and dangerous foes? Surely it was not these two events on there own that represented the threat Osborn and Octopus presented to PP/SM?

Of course they were already established as dangerous. ASM #90 and ASM #121 established that they were SO dangerous, that their antics caused the deaths of people Peter cared for.

Goblin killing Gwen was more of an indication of the danger of PP’s id being known to one of his worst enemies bore, than the danger Octopus posed to those close to Peter.
After all, Capt Stacy dieing was just bad luck, an accident.
Octopus did not intend to kill him Stacy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and was a victim of the was the same danger that all members of the public could face from falling debris caused by super powered adversaries fighting atop of buildings. All of Spidey’s enemies could cause that type of tragedy including Venom.

You don't get it. Goblin killing Gwen is something the Goblin did because Goblin knew who Peter was and was not afraid to cross the line to hurt Peter. Venom knows who Peter is, but he doesn't cross any lines. He can't. He's not half the villain Norman Osborn is.

As for Ock, again you're missing the point. Ock had become so dangerous to Spidey, that Spidey had to resort to new methods to taking him down. Thus, why he developed that special webbing that would interfere with Ock's tentacles.

It was Ock who toppled the chimney onto Captain Stacy. Maybe not intentionally, but he did it. He had become that much of a threat, and Spidey screwed up. His webbing had the wrong effect on Ock. He wanted to subdue him. Not have him go nuts with his tentacles.

However I am not trying to convince you that Venom’s authority as an A-class villain is based on a review of his entire career, what I am saying is that for a short time, in his first four arcs he was an A-class villain.

Well, that I will agree with. But Venom on the whole is certainly not A-class, IMO. No way.

See, prior to Doctor Octopus really getting the hooks in on PP, by doing things like inadvertently causing the death of Capt Stacy and conning/ almost marrying Aunt May, what great strikes had Ock had over Spidey besides unmasking him in #12 and giving Spidey some of his toughest ever fights, sometimes beating SM?

He beat and humiliated Spidey, causing him to hang up his webs. He kidnapped Peter's Aunt and girlfriend. Moved into May's home, trashed it, and caused her to have a stroke. Brain washed Spidey into becoming his criminal partner. Formed super villain teams to take him down etc.

Ock went above and beyond more than any other villain, bar Norman. He was invading Peter's personal life as well as making his life hell as Spidey. It was a double edged sword.

These things that defined him as a great villain prior to ASM#89 were the same cards that Venom held in his first four story arcs.

But Ock's greatness doesn't stop at Stan Lee's run. He's done plenty more since then to mess with Spidey. Venom, on the other hand, he's stayed in the same place he's always been.

You might argue that in order to be an A-class the villain, Venom would have to have to exhibit a more valid reason for hating PP, or at least the Eddie Brock component would, but as I have already explained the symbiote had a more than valid reason to hate PP.

As I've already said, I don't buy that symbiote bit. The symbiote is supposed to feed of it's hosts emotions and feelings. And Brock's emotions were weak and unfounded.

You could also argue that Doc Ock actually managed to de-mask Spider-man on his own personal merit, but that argument would be floored because back in ASM#12 Spidey was severely weakened as he was suffering w/ a viral infection.

The only reason Ock even went to unmask Spidey is because he didn't believe he was fighting the real Spider-Man, because of the lousy fight Peter was giving him. He suspected an imposter.

Ock was intent on killing Spider-Man. Not unmasking him. Maybe he would have unmasked him after he killed him. Who knows?? Point is, Ock did not set out to learn Spidey's identity in ASM #12. He set out to kill him.

Sometimes though, they are just nut jobs who just get it into their heads that a name on a page is responsible for their pain. So they go out and find/kill that person. The human condition does not always have an identifiable or logical pattern. Take psychopaths for example, they have no concept of right/wrong, so if they don’t like he way someone talks to them in library they might follow them home and kill them. Eddie Brock was clearly unstable (when he bonded w/ the alien) but it’s futile to try and evaluate to what degree. We could if it was PP because we know everything about him, but what did we know about Brock prior to Venom?, not a lot.

But, with a fictional character who is not a nameless nobody, but a big name villain, the motivations for such a villain have to be valid. A-class villains should be respected.

There should be a logical progression as to what made them what they are. There was none of this with Brock. Even trying to look at it from his perspective, I certainly can't understand how he came to his train of thought regarding Spider-Man.

Dragon gave a great analogy for this. It'd be like if you threw a million dollars in the trash, and then blamed the trash man for dumping it.

Brock's got to be a ****** to honestly believe Spidey is to blame for his misfortunes.

True, but why can’t you except that Eddie Brock was clearly not of sound mind or mental stability?

There's a difference between crazy and stupid. Brock is the latter, IMO. His reasons for hating Spidey are not insane. There's nothing psychologically scary or real about them. They're just plain stupid.

Yes and Morlun also validates that a villain does NOT need character depth to an effective or great enemy of Spider-man’s. A mis-conception and that you have been trying define as a pre-requisite to all enemies who could be considered such, including Venom.

No, Morlun does not validate it, because we don't know anything about Morlun. We knew nothing about Ock's background for years. Or Green Goblin's. Or the Joker's.

Their history was an enigma. We were just left to assume that their psychosis is deep rooted, stemming from early years of some kind of trauma, tradgedy, or abuse. But we didn't question why they were doing what they were doing, or why they hated their enemies. It all made sense. Spidey screwed up their schemes, Batman foiled Joker's.

With Brock, we knew exactly what he was. Who he was. What he did for a living etc.

After #347 he should have stayed in retirement, but that does not change that in his first four arcs he works as a great villain.

I agree with this.

 

[Dangerous]

Cool, yes. Impressive?? Not really, considering Norman designed and invented them in the first place. He's just feeding off someone elses creation and persona.

Impressive?, maybe not from a tech standpoint (apart from of course his modified version of the goblin formula which removed the insanity component, THAT was impressive) but then I did not present this point as being impressive. If anything it was luck that he came across the goods. I was explaining why Hobgoblin is a great villain on a par w/ GG or Octopus. This first reason being his arsenal. Basically it’s the same deadly array of weapons and powers that GG had only this time, everything was upgraded.

GG and Ock took this approach too before. They've stepped back, let others do their dirty work. Not directly confronted Spider-Man themselves.

So, this again was nothing unique to Hobby.

Ock and Green Goblin don't need to brain wash anyone into working for them. If they want lackeys, they'll get them. They don't have to brain wash them to get them to obey. They simply give their orders.

Look at the group of mercenaries Ock hired in his Master Planner days, for example.

I am aware GG and Octopus could dish out orders as respected leaders that would be followed through by other crims, but so could Hobby. The difference is Ock and GG did not do anything as devious, in the same way, as getting others to actually impersonate themselves via advanced hypnosis (not just birthing the idea, but also knowing how to implement it as a success) so that the authorities would believe the lackeys were the real deal. Thusly throwing them off the scent from the true Hobgoblin.
That was a masterstroke that I don’t think can be easily overlooked.

But nothing very unique for the standard quota of villainy set by Ock and Goblin.

I don’t think you understand what I inferred by mythic and supernatural here.
To the authorities and those in the criminal world, the Hobgoblin’s destruction and subsequent returns would serve to add an extra layer of mystique and fear to his rep in the circles of those which he sought to control.

Venom was not neutrailized. He was not defeated. He was free to do what ever he wanted. That's like someone going into the witness protection from the mob or something.

They can't hurt their intended victim if they cannot find them. Same deal with Venom. He thought Spider-Man was gone. When he could have very easily learned he was alive.

That analogy does not work.

If someone goes into a witness protection program, the mob would think their target had gone into hiding, not that they were dead. Venom, believed Spider-man to be dead.
Not that he had gone into hiding.

However short lived this period might have been (although it proved to be for quite a while until Spidey tracked him down again in the Carnage arc) the threat Venom presented to PP and his family’s lives had been neutralized. Thus for however temporarily, Venom HAD been neutralized.

Of course they were already established as dangerous. ASM #90 and ASM #121 established that they were SO dangerous, that their antics caused the deaths of people Peter cared for.

I know which is what I was saying, the deaths that these guys were responsible for were not the lines in the sand where they would finally be considered dangerous to PP/SM.
They were already dangerous prior to these events, just as Venom was.

You don't get it. Goblin killing Gwen is something the Goblin did because Goblin knew who Peter was and was not afraid to cross the line to hurt Peter. Venom knows who Peter is, but he doesn't cross any lines. He can't. He's not half the villain Norman Osborn is.

Actually you don’t get it.

All Brock cared about was killing Spider-man. That was his number one target, he threatened to harm PP’s family but that would only have transpired if PP never showed up when Venom wanted.
Spidey knew this so he always met Venom on his own terms. Don’t forget that Venom killed many innocent people who got in his way when tracking down web head. Venom was an entirely different character to Osborn, however warped (that is considering he could justify killing innocents that got in his way) Venom had a set of morals that he would operate by. In this sense it was kinda like a sport to him.

From ASM#14-121, Osborn had had many years of development as Osborn the personality and Green Goblin the criminal mind. Thusly you can’t really compare him to Venom by saying ‘GG was more villain -He killed Spidey’s girl!‘ because it is quite conceivable that if Venom had been designed to exist for as long as the original Goblin had and did (issues #14-122 as you are aware) that by that stage he would have certainly gotten round to killing a loved one.

As you know Venom/Brock was not designed to be a long term player.
For four arcs he was pretty badass.

As for Ock, again you're missing the point.

I’m not, heh.
You are inferring something different from the points I wish to elaborate on…

Ock had become so dangerous to Spidey, that Spidey had to resort to new methods to taking him down. Thus, why he developed that special webbing that would interfere with Ock's tentacles.

Which reminds me of how Venom was so dangerous to Spidey that he would have to discover new ways to take Venom down, such as harnessing Sonics to weaken or separate the two entities, or sometimes being forced into fights without having a plan and then having to think on his feet under extreme pressure and concoct a plan gambling that he could coax the symbiote from Brock and thus weaken Venom to the point where he could no longer stand.

It was Ock who toppled the chimney onto Captain Stacy. Maybe not intentionally, but he did it. He had become that much of a threat, and Spidey screwed up. His webbing had the wrong effect on Ock. He wanted to subdue him. Not have him go nuts with his tentacles.

I know this.

As I've already said, I don't buy that symbiote bit. The symbiote is supposed to feed of it's hosts emotions and feelings.

It does.

And Brock's emotions were weak and unfounded.

Wrong.

Brock’s emotions were bitter and rage fuelled, so when he bonded w/ the symbiote they made a great pair. The creature tapped into his rather deluded blaming of PP/SM and strengthened it w/ its own hate. More importantly however the alien took all of Brock’s frustrations and turned them into physical strength. Brock’s reasoning and thought investment in the cause of his grief or who was really to blame was weak, but his emotions definitely were not.

The creature turns bitterness into physical strength, it does not evaluate if potential hosts are of sound mind and reasoning. It basically want you to be on a similar page to itself so it can bend you to do its bidding.

But, with a fictional character who is not a nameless nobody, but a big name villain, the motivations for such a villain have to be valid. A-class villains should be respected.

There should be a logical progression as to what made them what they are. There was none of this with Brock. Even trying to look at it from his perspective, I certainly can't understand how he came to his train of thought regarding Spider-Man.

Dragon gave a great analogy for this. It'd be like if you threw a million dollars in the trash, and then blamed the trash man for dumping it.

Brock's got to be a ****** to honestly believe Spidey is to blame for his misfortunes.

Brock believed Spidey to be responsible for his misfortunes, since he debunked the perspective of the article he had written on the apparent Sin Eater for the Daily Globe. I know it’s not exactly bullet proof his reasoning, as serial killers in urban areas are always caught eventually, but Brock was not a logical man. For him Spider-man was responsible for him losing his job rather than what it actually was which was his own shoddy journalism.

Call him a ****** if you like, but some people are that illogical.
If they get knocked off the horse, then the world is to blame not them.

No, Morlun does not validate it, because we don't know anything about Morlun.

We know enough about him, what does that have to do w/ it anyway?
Morlun DOES validate that a villain does not need depth to be an effective or great enemy of Spider-man’s since he wiped him out. You can’t get much more effective than that!

Morlun has no depth- A creature of seemingly limited power who deemed that PP was a pure source of totem-mistic force, and since he feeds on such forces he was going to eat PP and nothing could be done about it. Eventually after a brutal battle or two w/ Morlun Spidey perished.
Though Morlun was apparently dead again, he caused Spidey to die.

With Brock, we knew exactly what he was. Who he was. What he did for a living etc.

We knew of his immediate circumstances and brief rundown of his recent career and motivations.
We did not know anything about his childhood and formative years, and to this day only know a small amount.

 

[The Joker]

Impressive?, maybe not from a tech standpoint (apart from of course his modified version of the goblin formula which removed the insanity component, THAT was impressive) but then I did not present this point as being impressive.

It's not that impressive. He didn't create the formula, and he had all the info about it and it's side effects. Norman didn't. Not to mention Norman was accidently exposed to the formula.

Had he known about the insanity component, I'm sure he could of removed it, too. He created the formula. If Kingsley could do it, then Norman sure can.

I was explaining why Hobgoblin is a great villain on a par w/ GG or Octopus. This first reason being his arsenal. Basically it’s the same deadly array of weapons and powers that GG had only this time, everything was upgraded.

But, you're just comparing them on a power level, then. A villain can have all the power in the world. It's how they use it that defines them as villains.

As we've already mentioned, Electro is a good example of that.

I am aware GG and Octopus could dish out orders as respected leaders that would be followed through by other crims, but so could Hobby. The difference is Ock and GG did not do anything as devious, in the same way, as getting others to actually impersonate themselves via advanced hypnosis (not just birthing the idea, but also knowing how to implement it as a success) so that the authorities would believe the lackeys were the real deal. Thusly throwing them off the scent from the true Hobgoblin.
That was a masterstroke that I don’t think can be easily overlooked.

I'm not saying it isn't good. But, impersonation of someone else to throw the authorities off the scent is not a unique ploy. Chameleon's been doing that since ASM #1.

I don’t think you understand what I inferred by mythic and supernatural here.
To the authorities and those in the criminal world, the Hobgoblin’s destruction and subsequent returns would serve to add an extra layer of mystique and fear to his rep in the circles of those which he sought to control.

He's no more feared than Goblin or Octopus or even Kingpin for that matter.

That analogy does not work.

If someone goes into a witness protection program, the mob would think their target had gone into hiding, not that they were dead. Venom, believed Spider-man to be dead.
Not that he had gone into hiding.

However short lived this period might have been (although it proved to be for quite a while until Spidey tracked him down again in the Carnage arc) the threat Venom presented to PP and his family’s lives had been neutralized. Thus for however temporarily, Venom HAD been neutralized.

My analogy works perfectly, and here's why: In the witness protection, the bad guys cannot kill someone if they don't know where they are. But, there is the risk they will some how find out.

Venom cannot kill Spider-Man if he thinks he's already dead. But, there is the risk he will hear that he's still alive in New York.

Perfect analogy. Venom was not defeated. Merely duped.

I know which is what I was saying, the deaths that these guys were responsible for were not the lines in the sand where they would finally be considered dangerous to PP/SM.
They were already dangerous prior to these events, just as Venom was.

Yes, but there is a big difference. When Spider-Man battled with Doc Ock or the Green Goblin, he rose to the challenge they presented. He upped his game and lived up to be the hero he's supposed to be.

He also learned a lesson as a hero with each bout with Gobby and Ock. With Venom, he simply ran with his tail between his legs. No wonder Venom became as popular as he did, with Spidey acting like a total wuss.

I'd root for Venom, too.

Actually you don’t get it.

All Brock cared about was killing Spider-man. That was his number one target, he threatened to harm PP’s family but that would only have transpired if PP never showed up when Venom wanted.
Spidey knew this so he always met Venom on his own terms. Don’t forget that Venom killed many innocent people who got in his way when tracking down web head. Venom was an entirely different character to Osborn, however warped (that is considering he could justify killing innocents that got in his way) Venom had a set of morals that he would operate by. In this sense it was kinda like a sport to him.

There's no difference here.

Ock and Gobby wanted Spider-Man dead, too. Ock even formed the Sinister Six for the sole purpose of finishing off Spider-Man. And both Ock and Goblin kidnapped people Spider-Man cared for in order to ensure that he showed up to confront them.

And if Spidey had not shown up, they'd have been goners, too. They didn't have to kill lots of innocents to get to Spider-Man. They made Spidey come to them.

From ASM#14-121, Osborn had had many years of development as Osborn the personality and Green Goblin the criminal mind. Thusly you can’t really compare him to Venom by saying ‘GG was more villain -He killed Spidey’s girl!‘ because it is quite conceivable that if Venom had been designed to exist for as long as the original Goblin had and did (issues #14-122 as you are aware) that by that stage he would have certainly gotten round to killing a loved one.

You keep speaking as though Venom has not been around since the 80's. Green Goblin was nearly 10 years in the comics before he offed Gwen.

Venom's had years to get his act together. Where's Brock's famous kill, for a villain who supposedly has it in for Spider-Man so badly?? Heck, where's Brock's famous anything??

Venom may have originally been intended to be a short term character, but once they knew he was staying, they had plenty of opportunity to use him effectively.

Nearly 20 years later, we're still waiting.

Which reminds me of how Venom was so dangerous to Spidey that he would have to discover new ways to take Venom down, such as harnessing Sonics to weaken or separate the two entities, or sometimes being forced into fights without having a plan and then having to think on his feet under extreme pressure and concoct a plan gambling that he could coax the symbiote from Brock and thus weaken Venom to the point where he could no longer stand.

How can you compare the two?? Spider-Man never beat Venom back then. He would either run, or fake defeat. He would let a madman like Brock just go free.

He never did that with Goblin or Octavius. Though, he had the disadvantage of not knowing who Goblin was pre ASM #39-40. Spidey didn't quit until he beat them. Like a true hero.

The only reason he came up with the sonics and stuff for Venom, was to have help his ass stay alive a little longer should Venom confront him again.

Brock’s emotions were bitter and rage fuelled, so when he bonded w/ the symbiote they made a great pair.

And that's the root of the problem right there. His feelings of hatred for Spidey were completely unjustified and stupid. It doesn't matter what yarn you spin on that.

The entire foundation of the character is weak. You can try and justify that he's crazy, but that's no defence. There's a difference between crazy and stupid.

Hannibal Lecter is crazy, but he's not stupid. The Joker is crazy, but he's not stupid. There's method to their madness.

Cannot say the same for Brock.

Brock believed Spidey to be responsible for his misfortunes, since he debunked the perspective of the article he had written on the apparent Sin Eater for the Daily Globe. I know it’s not exactly bullet proof his reasoning, as serial killers in urban areas are always caught eventually, but Brock was not a logical man. For him Spider-man was responsible for him losing his job rather than what it actually was which was his own shoddy journalism.

I know. This is the nonsense that's been ripped apart since page 1 of this thread, in case you didn't notice

Call him a ****** if you like, but some people are that illogical.
If they get knocked off the horse, then the world is to blame not them.

Again, there's a difference between illogical and stupid. The Joker trying to get a profit from fish sales in Gotham City by making them all have Joker smiles is illogical.

Blaming a man who had nothing to do with your misfortunes, someone who's never even met you, who simply brought down a dangerous criminal [Sin Eater] is stupid.

We know enough about him, what does that have to do w/ it anyway?
Morlun DOES validate that a villain does not need depth to be an effective or great enemy of Spider-man’s since he wiped him out. You can’t get much more effective than that!

But Venom isn't an effective enemy. That's whole point. Morlun can eat Spider-Man's eye *insert a big eye rolling smiley here* on their second battle, but all Venom can do is stalk Spidey's ass, and occasionally team up with him, after nearly 20 years.

Effective enemy my foot.

We knew of his immediate circumstances and brief rundown of his recent career and motivations.
We did not know anything about his childhood and formative years, and to this day only know a small amount.

But we know what motivated him to become a criminal. Just like we know what made Ock and Gobby into super villains. They were victims of bad science and traumatic accidents.

Brock's reason for turning into a killer is.......well I think I've stressed that point enough

 

[vegeta21]

For people who say Venom's motives were unjustified and stupid, wasn't that the point? Of COURSE he was unjustified in blaming Spider-man, because it was NOT Spider-man's fault that Eddie Ruined his life. It was Eddie's and Eddie's alone. He took no responsibility for ANY of his misdoings, whereas Peter bears the weight of taking responsibility. Responsibility is Peter's driving force, dodging responsibilty is Eddie's driving force. Personaly I think that makes him an interesting character. Well, for a few good stories anyway. Too bad they never delved into that aspect of Brock more, because that would make him the perfect "Anti-Spider-Man".

 

[e-three]

For people who say Venom's motives were unjustified and stupid, wasn't that the point? Of COURSE he was unjustified in blaming Spider-man, because it was NOT Spider-man's fault that Eddie Ruined his life. It was Eddie's and Eddie's alone. He took no responsibility for ANY of his misdoings, whereas Peter bears the weight of taking responsibility. Responsibility is Peter's driving force, dodging responsibilty is Eddie's driving force. Personaly I think that makes him an interesting character. Well, for a few good stories anyway. Too bad they never delved into that aspect of Brock more, because that would make him the perfect "Anti-Spider-Man".

Yeah, I've said that a couple of times in this thread. But apparently that insight is considered by the anti-Venom crowd to be "superficial" for some reason.

 

[Dangerous]

It's not that impressive. He didn't create the formula, and he had all the info about it and it's side effects. Norman didn't. Not to mention Norman was accidently exposed to the formula.

Had he known about the insanity component, I'm sure he could of removed it, too. He created the formula. If Kingsley could do it, then Norman sure can.

Osborn created the formula after all like you said, Kingsley on the other hand had a background in fashion prior to his life in crime. Considering his origins, and the readers assumed perspective of him being a person of limited/no experience in Chem lab, I reckon it to be pretty damn impressive that he was able to distil the formula in such a way that he could retain its beneficial properties while also extracting the side effects.

But, you're just comparing them on a power level, then. A villain can have all the power in the world. It's how they use it that defines them as villains.

As we've already mentioned, Electro is a good example of that.

I know, but Hobby used his powers greatly.
I was just listing the initial reasons why Hobby is a great villain in the same league as Ock and GG.
In methodical order, his weapons and arsenal were the first things to make note of.

I'm not saying it isn't good. But, impersonation of someone else to throw the authorities off the scent is not a unique ploy. Chameleon's been doing that since ASM #1.

Not the same thing at all.
That is the Chameleon’s special power.
He did not have to think it up, or more impressively- implement the technology to actually work on other people, posing as himself. Chameleon’s ability to disguise himself as anyone is just who he is.

He's no more feared than Goblin or Octopus or even Kingpin for that matter.

I did not say he was MORE feared than these guys, I was just saying he was in the same league as them.

My analogy works perfectly, and here's why: In the witness protection, the bad guys cannot kill someone if they don't know where they are. But, there is the risk they will some how find out.

Venom cannot kill Spider-Man if he thinks he's already dead. But, there is the risk he will hear that he's still alive in New York.

Perfect analogy. Venom was not defeated. Merely duped.

Your analogy makes sense when you explain it that way.
Not so much in it’s original incarnation.

Though in the way it was actually played out in the comics, it became clear Venom was only going to find out Spidey was still alive from webhead visiting him personally, as he did.
Do I think this is dumb and unrealistic? Of course I do.
I am only arguing that up to the point where Spidey convinced Venom he was dead, did Venom work as a character. After that point, the Venom saga became nonsense.

Yes, but there is a big difference. When Spider-Man battled with Doc Ock or the Green Goblin, he rose to the challenge they presented. He upped his game and lived up to be the hero he's supposed to be.

He also learned a lesson as a hero with each bout with Gobby and Ock. With Venom, he simply ran with his tail between his legs. No wonder Venom became as popular as he did, with Spidey acting like a total wuss.

I'd root for Venom, too.

Spider-man is a hero, we all know that but the fact is Venom was more dangerous in face value than either Ock or GG ever where. What I mean by that is Spider-man could have a fist fight w/ GG or Ock and most of the time, get the better of them. If he ever tried to go toe to toe w/ Venom in a fist fight Venom would have punched his head off.

You keep saying ‘Spider-man ran, Spidey was a wuss’, but it was because he did not know how to fight Venom a lot of the time. You can call this bad writing if you like, but the fact is if a villain comes along that is as seemingly tough as Venom then Spidey is going to struggle to decipher a way to fight.
Look to the Morlun arcs, Spidey ran there too. Why? Because he was facing a foe w/ a power level way above his own who was seemingly unstoppable. He needed time to think tactics.

The important thing is that Spider-man did find ways to put the lid on Venom. Since he could not do it w/ muscle he had to use his brains, which is how he beat him each time. Personally I like it when SM actually figures out an integral weakness in his foe, instead of just whipping up a new batch of extra strong webbing.
If anything that could be considered lazy writing.

You keep speaking as though Venom has not been around since the 80's. Green Goblin was nearly 10 years in the comics before he offed Gwen.

Venom's had years to get his act together. Where's Brock's famous kill, for a villain who supposedly has it in for Spider-Man so badly?? Heck, where's Brock's famous anything??

Venom may have originally been intended to be a short term character, but once they knew he was staying, they had plenty of opportunity to use him effectively.

Nearly 20 years later, we're still waiting.

I know all this.

Maybe it was Dragon I pointed this out to, but….
I am only seeking to justify that for his first four arcs Venom was an A-class, great or whatever you want to call it top tier villain, as big a player as GG or Ock.
But Venom post ASM#347, or if we consider Venom’s criminal career as a whole?
I agree he stinks.
We on the same page now?

How can you compare the two?? Spider-Man never beat Venom back then. He would either run, or fake defeat. He would let a madman like Brock just go free.

I was comparing the two to illustrate that overcoming Venom in battle was no easy feat.
That to do this Spider-man had to discover new weapons specifically effective towards this new enemy,
Or devise plans using so that he might be in w/ a shot of taking Venom down.
Basically it was no picnic.
You keep referring to Spidey’s battles of yesteryear and his victories over GG and Ock in that he acted ‘Like a true Hero’, I take this as you missing the point.
Why is not conceivable that a hero might in his life occasionally face a foe vastly more powerful than any other he has faced before? dictating that he employ different tactics to all his previous battles?
That’s what Venom was, and that’s the effect he had.

And that's the root of the problem right there. His feelings of hatred for Spidey were completely unjustified and stupid. It doesn't matter what yarn you spin on that.

The entire foundation of the character is weak. You can try and justify that he's crazy, but that's no defence. There's a difference between crazy and stupid.

Hannibal Lecter is crazy, but he's not stupid. The Joker is crazy, but he's not stupid. There's method to their madness.

Cannot say the same for Brock.

I know. This is the nonsense that's been ripped apart since page 1 of this thread, in case you didn't notice

Oh well I have explained it as best I can from my perspective…

I think it makes perfect sense, but you seem unable to comprehend that there are illogical, even stupid people in the world who blame others for their mistakes. In Eddie Brock’s case not only was he one such delusional soul, but he was also taken over by a symbiotic alien that used its hosts frustrations as a template, and then grafted it’s own VERY logical hate of PP/SM onto him.
Why you can’t get your head around this simple premise is lost on me.

But Venom isn't an effective enemy. That's whole point. Morlun can eat Spider-Man's eye *insert a big eye rolling smiley here* on their second battle, but all Venom can do is stalk Spidey's ass, and occasionally team up with him, after nearly 20 years.

Effective enemy my foot.

Well I brought Morlun up, because you tried the old- ‘a villain needs depth to be a great villain’.
So I was just bringing Morlun up to shoot that one out of the sky.
Looking at Venom’s first four apps, which as you now know is all I am arguing about-
Venom was an effective enemy,- he made MJ fearful for her life, Peter fearful for hers and Aunt May’s and most importantly he proved to be a very difficult enemy and gave Spider-man some of his hardest ever fights. Not only that but he was such an effective foe, that by ASM#347 Spidey had to compromise by leaving him out there instead of trying to haul him in downtown.

But we know what motivated him to become a criminal. Just like we know what made Ock and Gobby into super villains. They were victims of bad science and traumatic accidents.

Brock's reason for turning into a killer is.......well I think I've stressed that point enough

We knew his immediate past exactly, that is all.

With regard to people w/ illogical resoning, those who place the blame on others when they are at fault.-
Personalities such as these can often develop after a period in their formative years where the subject was abused in some way by a parent or guardian figure, or compromised to endure any other type of unusual situation. Difference between me and you is- I don’t naturally assume that any of this is out of the realms of possibility for EB.

 

[Dragon]

For people who say Venom's motives were unjustified and stupid, wasn't that the point? Of COURSE he was unjustified in blaming Spider-man, because it was NOT Spider-man's fault that Eddie Ruined his life. It was Eddie's and Eddie's alone. He took no responsibility for ANY of his misdoings, whereas Peter bears the weight of taking responsibility. Responsibility is Peter's driving force, dodging responsibilty is Eddie's driving force. Personaly I think that makes him an interesting character. Well, for a few good stories anyway. Too bad they never delved into that aspect of Brock more, because that would make him the perfect "Anti-Spider-Man".

Eddie's motivations shouldn't have been unjustified and stupid, considering that he's written from a place of self-righteousness, and he has a mission of punishing Spider-Man.

Spidey's truly great villains have selfish motivations. They know it. they accept it. They justify it by their belief that they are superior, above the law and deserving to be seated on the heads of everyone else. They're motivation for wanting Spider-man dead is that he

1. Is an obstacle in their path.
2. By defeating them, threatens their self-worth.

Venom on the other hand, with his false motives, with his lack of ambition other than to see Spider-Man dead. With his cheezy dialogue, and over-the-top appearance and built-in invincibility he quickly grew tiresome.
As for his being the "anti-Spider-Man" because he stands for the opposite of "With Great Power comes Great responsibility". That's been covered. BY EVERY VILLAIN EVER MADE. They're ALL about the irresponsible use of power. that's why they're villains. If this is Venom's only leg to stand on, he hasn't got one.

IF he had real motivations- IF he had depth- IF he had the things which make for a great villain, then we wouldn't need to have this debate.

It's certainly possible for a character like Venom to be great. But that takes skillful writing and handling. A rare thing these days.

 

[vegeta21]

Eddie's motivations shouldn't have been unjustified and stupid, considering that he's written from a place of self-righteousness, and he has a mission of punishing Spider-Man.

Spidey's truly great villains have selfish motivations. They know it. they accept it. They justify it by their belief that they are superior, above the law and deserving to be seated on the heads of everyone else. They're motivation for wanting Spider-man dead is that he

1. Is an obstacle in their path.
2. By defeating them, threatens their self-worth.

Venom on the other hand, with his false motives, with his lack of ambition other than to see Spider-Man dead. With his cheezy dialogue, and over-the-top appearance and built-in invincibility he quickly grew tiresome.
As for his being the "anti-Spider-Man" because he stands for the opposite of "With Great Power comes Great responsibility". That's been covered. BY EVERY VILLAIN EVER MADE. They're ALL about the irresponsible use of power. that's why they're villains. If this is Venom's only leg to stand on, he hasn't got one.

IF he had real motivations- IF he had depth- IF he had the things which make for a great villain, then we wouldn't need to have this debate.

It's certainly possible for a character like Venom to be great. But that takes skillful writing and handling. A rare thing these days.

I guess I kind of half agree with you there. The execution and motive of venom over the years HAS been pretty one dimensional. Aside from looking cool there isn't much depth to the character. But there should be depth. I think if they played up on the "its never MY fault" angle with Venom it would make for a more interesting character. Maybe I look more deep into it than most people.Though I did think his first few stories were pretty good. If only to make him an almost unstoppable villain that will stop at nothing to destroy Spider-man. Too bad that story can only be told so many times before he looks like a pathetic villain (which I guess would be why they turned him into the anti-hero .

True he's no Green Goblin or Doc Ock, or even Hobgoblin for that matter but if written well he could be a deeper character. At least Jenkins tried to put a little depth into his character with the cancer angle.

And on a side note I wish they could have made the Gargan Venom a bit more intersting. They should make him a bit, I dunno, Scorpiony. Aside from giving him a tail in "Beyond" he's just Venom with a different looking costume. At least give him a freaking Scorpion for an insignia.

 

[Dangerous]

IF he had real motivations- IF he had depth- IF he had the things which make for a great villain, then we wouldn't need to have this debate.

No reply to post 54?
See, I agree Venom on the whole, career wise sucks donkey balls considering his advantages.
I do however believe he made a great villain for his first 4 apps.

And on a side note I wish they could have made the Gargan Venom a bit more intersting. They should make him a bit, I dunno, Scorpiony. Aside from giving him a tail in "Beyond" he's just Venom with a different looking costume. At least give him a freaking Scorpion for an insignia.

TBH it's pretty damn hard to define the exact pattern of his insignia as each subsequent artist that draws him seems to have a different take on it.
For me, in The Last Stand and Beyond! it alluded to a scorpion design more so than a spider.

 

[The Prowler]

I was just at Barnes and Noble and I saw that Conway book with your piece in it. Congratulations!

Just bought that book. Which piece is MadGoblin's? I love his work

 

[The MadGoblin]

Just bought that book. Which piece is MadGoblin's? I love his work

The Absent Father piece...

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I'm interrupting my Goblin Prince series to give readers a two part sneak peek at a new series in development. Here is the first part:

Dark Side of the Spider Part 1

You guys with the smilies make it easy for me. I don't even have to say who it's about


There's also Secret Identity, which is my take on the Unmasking..


Spidey Kicks Butt!

the dark side of peter rocks so hard in my opinion!!!. this is alot of the things that interest me most about eddie brock. I mean his first appearance was one of the best and he had an awesome attitude towards spidey. eddie brocks motives in my opinion is what makes him get so angry. He's not like every other spidey villian in the spidey mythos, lets take Doc Ock for example, Ock was a classic evil mastermind that had great power because of the tentacles but he only had one motive.

on the other hand peter parkers motives is to protect new york city and to make sure what happened to his uncle ben doesn't happen to anybody else and he also had a job at the daily bugle which is where he got his money from.

eddie brock is the complete oppisite because he tries to cheat his way into succeeding in life when really he can't, he has motives but he can't succeed them so when he bonds with the symbiote, he takes all that anger and rage out on spider-man which I don't think any other villian has completley.

 

[Dragon]

I think I should make something explicitly clear to start with-
I am only arguing the validity of Venom’s first four storylines. After this point as I have previously stated, Venom should have been left well alone (ASM#375 was very dumb).
Since what made Venom work as a villain was intrinsically linked w/ his design limitations, it meant he could only be taken seriously for a short time. When Venom returned for the Carnage storyline onwards, not much made sense. Spidey ran and also sometimes took it in the butt- Ouch!

Re: ASM#317-Regading when Spidey ‘lay down’ instead of doing what he should have done and taking Venom in, I assume you are talking about the end of the comic when Venom is left severely weakened post battle and PP just walks way in the opposite direction. I agree it was odd, but it did not detract from Venom being a great enemy.
I never said these stories were perfect just that they were entertaining to read and Venom made a great villain.

Re: #347- Here PP/SM did what he had to do to stop Venom.
Since all his powers were rendered useless against this foe, SM was forced to out wit Brock. If Venom was dumb enough to buy it without definitive proof, which he was, then it worked. By this point Spidey understood that innocent people only died by Venom if they got in the way of his cause, so if SM made Brock think he was dead then theoretically he would never harm anyone again.

Of course, in doing this Spidey is leaving a murderer to roam free on vacation, and that is where the story (if you take it on it’s initial face value) is flawed. This could have been fixed though if in #348 PP mused to himself about the FF going out to collect and incarcerate Brock and we saw a few panels of this. In other words this would allude that he had a clean up plan by the end of #347.

So despite that massive question mark hanging over #347 it does not spoil the story for me just because it is not answered immediately. It’s w/ Venom not being imprisoned and his subsequent return where I believe the Venom saga went rapidly down hill.

See, for me the ending is important. In a well written story, the beginning and middle should build to a powerful, or at least a logical ending.

It appears that early on there was aplan with Venom. He'd be Spidey's ultimate nemesis. But instead of building him into this position with one great story after another, they tried to sdo it artificially by having Peter constantly fail against him, when he should have won. By making Venom instantly invincible- he's faster(?), stronger and can disrupt Spidey's spider sense. So Spidey has no chance against him. and further- Spidey is dumbed down so he can't come up with any strategy to defeat Venom (As did for example, Ben Reilly). This is why I keep saying they resorted to lazy writing to build Venom up, rather than really making an effort to have him become a great villain.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I'm interrupting my Goblin Prince series to give readers a two part sneak peek at a new series in development. Here is the first part:

Dark Side of the Spider Part 1

You guys with the smilies make it easy for me. I don't even have to say who it's about


There's also Secret Identity, which is my take on the Unmasking..


Spidey Kicks Butt!

Everybody, just go and read this dude's entire site. It's absolutely fantastic, very well written, entertaining, and so well informed Marvel should employ him.

 

[Dangerous]

See, for me the ending is important. In a well written story, the beginning and middle should build to a powerful, or at least a logical ending.

It appears that early on there was aplan with Venom. He'd be Spidey's ultimate nemesis. But instead of building him into this position with one great story after another, they tried to sdo it artificially by having Peter constantly fail against him, when he should have won.

Hmm, I just don’t really always see it as him having failed against him.
In #300 and #317 he stopped him, the wrap up might not have always been 100% logical though.

By making Venom instantly invincible- he's faster(?), stronger and can disrupt Spidey's spider sense. So Spidey has no chance against him. and further- Spidey is dumbed down so he can't come up with any strategy to defeat Venom (As did for example, Ben Reilly). This is why I keep saying they resorted to lazy writing to build Venom up, rather than really making an effort to have him become a great villain.

You could call it lazy writing about Venom being invincible, but I don’t think SM was dumbed down against Venom. He jus struggled to decipher how to approach this foe. It’s not like Spidey never put one over him anyway, ultimately he figured out ways to stop Venom for however short a period of time.

 

[Willowhugger]

Uhhhh guys, did you all miss (apparently the Spidey Kicks Butt guy missed it too)

The reason Eddie Brock is pissed is because Spiderman is Peter Parker.

....Ergo....

Peter Parker gets all the good photos and news because he's MAKING IT! Eddie Brock's reasons for hating Spiderman are the fact that he had a tremendous advantage over him as a photographer and the Bugle fired him because Parker got the story....because he was directly involved in it.

Eddie Brock had the Sin eater on ice anyway and was blinded by the fame. He made a career smashing mistake but the realization that Parker KNEW it wasn't the Sin eater but kept it secret plus God knows how many other things that he used to beat out Brock as a reporter is the reason for the motivation.

It's not that hard of an idea to wrap your mind around.

I just thought I'd throw why I like Venom out though. It might explain why, at least for one fan, that Venom is such a beloved character. You already know that the costume just kicks butt in the same way that Spidey does. Plus, Venom is the only guy that can fight Spiderman like Spiderman fights because they have the same powers.

This is all the reason that my younger self needed to see Venom as the "archnemesis" of Spiderman.

However, I've come to appreciate Eddie's warped psychology almost as much as the purely style elements of the character. What it boils down to is the fact that Venom is the character that takes the power of Spiderman and just abuses the hell out of it. No, Eddie isn't motivated by money like Early Spiderman is but he's essentially throwing all responsibility for his actions out the window.

Yes, Eddie is a murderer and a scumbag. His honor code suits him only so long as it serves him but the weird fact is that he BELIEVES he has it plus all of his actions justify his choices. That's what makes him such a fascinating character to watch. That he lives from day to day believing he's the good guy and can rationalize whatever he does away from cop killing to threatening anyone who ticks him off.

because he's the hero and that's the way the world works.

I bought the Venom series when they were out, not because I thought Eddie Brock was a hero but because its fun to read about such a warped personality. While, like all Spidey fans, I hated Maximum Carnage...the original story worked for me because it showed that Venom really WASN'T a personality-less killing machine. The best parts aren't the CONTRASTS with Cletus Cassidy but the parts where you realize they DO have similar motivations. Yes, Venom gets off on killing people but he adjusts with that by saying they're evil.

It also helps show why the Scorpion is such an abyssmal choice to be Venom. He's now just another crook in a costume. It also illustrates that it wasn't the costume that made the character interesting or "brain eating" threats but the self justifying evil of a man that insists he's a hero despite being the exact opposite.

Thanks again and please continue writing such great articles.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I think people who hate Venom's motivations are forgetting one thing -- Brock's insane. Of course his reasons aren't any good.... he's nutty! THAT's the Brock's really all about. It doesn't matter what he'd chosen, as Spidey did nothing to it, his motivations are supposed to be completely irrational.

That said, I do admit that his origin could use improvement. I rather like what Raimi is doing and what TAS did. I think it's time to revamp Eddie in the comics.... retcon most of his origin. Maybe make his involvement with the Sin Eater storyline a false memory brought on by insanity (Since it contradicted the Jean DeWolff storyline anyhow. Make his life a bigger tradgedy that we knew before (ignoring his existing past) and make something else Spidey did the straw that broke the camel's back and finally ruined his life, but because of his madness, he only notes that something Spidey did ruined his life.... that he doesn't remember Spidey's effect on him was small.

I dunno. Seems more credible to me. Ock? What do you think? How would you improve Venom?

 

[Shockdingo]

I like the idea that Spidey has more to do with things than originally thought. And I thought the crappy childhood angle could have been pushed more. I thought if they amped that up it'd show why he was so desperate to get the sin eater story and why he was so easy to suck in all the popularity.

I mean think about it, his life should be more tragic, the whole thing with his father: with the Sin eater stuff, all the previous crap that'd dogged him down and "made him a loser" would almost be behind him and he'd get acceptance from his father, but losing that in addition to everything would make him finally snap.

I'm not a uber bright guy like some of the posters, nor a great writer, but that Spiderman story from last year or so with the crazy girl who kept running into Spidey and blamed him for stalking her could be used. Heck, maybe while Spidey would be saving people and fighting villains, as a result, things would be made harder for him.

Example:

While fighting Doc Ock in the streets, Brock is going over to meet up with his wife, things have been rocky and due to the battle, things cause him to get delayed and boom, it adds to the bitterness and ultimately the divorce happens down the line. Or even maybe Ann is pregnant and the shock of the super battle cuases a miscarage? I mean anything that could be tied to his wife would really work, it could even be a creepy parallel for Pete and MJ. The thing is Ann left Eddie, but he never stopped loving her, so I feel that's something that totally should be covered.

Another scenario something along the lines of, Spidey defeating a villain, and an impact or chain reaction (unseen by Spidey) causes all of Brock's hard work on tailing a lead or story collapses.

Eh, I'm blabbing and can't properly connect my ideas. But hopefully I didn't come off as a goof

 

[Overman27pj]

Great job dude, very cool for doing this!

 

[Spidey_87]

Enjoyed reading the article. Very precise and interesting.