David Fleming & John Murphy/The Score & Composer Thread

[DKDetective]

When did that happen? Where can I see VA’s original story?

No idea. Heard it from another mod who is far more willing to trawl through the bowels of despicable social media platforms like Twitter than me.

 

[old city outlaw]

The entire soundtrack has been posted on YouTube.

 

[Stringer]

Haven't seen the movie but just from the bit I heard Fleming saved the day with his work here. Last Son alone outshines practically everything I've heard in the MCU.

 

[Dave McFly]

ok I LOVE this

 

[Elayis]

Just as I feared, the score for the movie is dreadful. The music sounds interchangeable with modern trends of trailer scoring, with overly bombastic percussion and little thematic progression.

Looking at the credits on the album, there are EIGHT composers listed, not including Williams. Murphy had two additional composers working under him, while Fleming had four (one of whom worked on BvS). I don’t know why Gunn was under the impression that three distinct styles of music would gel cohesively. Neither Murphy or Fleming quote the other’s work, so it all feels haphazardly cobbled together. There’s Williams theme, some nods to Zimmer’s work (the overall soundscape and mannerisms are very similar to MoS, and there’s a direct quote of his Clark theme, as well), but the predominant atmosphere is this new trailer-esque style.

The music situation is quite similar to what happened with Age of Ultron, Ghost in the Shell or Obi-Wan, where a second, unplanned composer was brought on last-minute to clean up lingering issues. With AoU and GitS, scheduling conflicts necessitated the hiring of someone new. Whereas with Obi-Wan (which also featured music by Williams), executives considered the initial work that Natalie Holt did to be lacking that distinctive Star Wars feel. Williams was also unhappy with how his themes were being adapted, so to appease him William Ross (his longtime collaborator and orchestrator) was hired to handle any quotes of existing Star Wars music. In the end, the final product on Obi-Wan is a clumsy mishmash of Holt’s modern Zimmer-esque cues and Williams’ more traditional fare. At least with Superman, the Williams’ quotes are rendered in the same style as the rest of the score, but it also destroys what makes the theme so special in the first place.

It’s as if Murphy and Fleming recognize that Williams’ theme is iconic, but they haven’t the faintest idea of what it is about the theme that people love. They also don’t do anything interesting with it, they just plop in and slow it down, like they assume that makes it more epic or something. So in execution, they just repeat the same phrase over and over until it loses any emotional resonance. The abbreviated version of the theme lacks all of its original grandeur, so what we’re left with is merely a cheap callback. It reminds me of Elfman’s use of legacy themes in Justice League, where the inclusion of Reeve’s Superman & Keaton’s Batman themes felt weird and discordant. John Ottman’s score for Superman Returns demonstrated that it’s possible to be both imaginative and faithful at the same time. There’s not an ounce of the intelligence or soulfulness of Ottman’s Returns here, and it’s a shame.

Unfortunately, the music is a failure at respecting Williams’ music, nor does it meaningfully develop any new material with enough substance to stand on its own. Lois’ theme (or is it the Daily Planet’s?) is fine enough, but it’s a short riff, nothing more, and pale’s in comparison to Ottman’s original material (like his motif for Lex, or the new love theme).

If the composers on this film were unable to live up to Williams’ legacy, I really wish they had followed in Zimmer’s footsteps and done something completely different. It does seem that the decision to reference the 1978 theme was a mandate from Gunn, so it’s not entirely Murphy and Fleming’s fault, but that’s no excuse for how poorly implemented it was.

I may end up liking the movie (though I have my doubts, as I’ve never fully warmed to Gunn’s style), but it’s a massive bummer that the music is such a misfire. I hope one day we learn what went on behind the scenes, though.

 

[J.Drangal]

Just as I feared, the score for the movie is dreadful. The music sounds interchangeable with modern trends of trailer scoring, with overly bombastic percussion and little thematic progression.

Looking at the credits on the album, there are EIGHT composers listed, not including Williams. Murphy had two additional composers working under him, while Fleming had four (one of whom worked on BvS). I don’t know why Gunn was under the impression that three distinct styles of music would gel cohesively. Neither Murphy or Fleming quote the other’s work, so it all feels haphazardly cobbled together. There’s Williams theme, some nods to Zimmer’s work (the overall soundscape and mannerisms are very similar to MoS, and there’s a direct quote of his Clark theme, as well), but the predominant atmosphere is this new trailer-esque style.

The music situation is quite similar to what happened with Age of Ultron, Ghost in the Shell or Obi-Wan, where a second, unplanned composer was brought on last-minute to clean up lingering issues. With AoU and GitS, scheduling conflicts necessitated the hiring of someone new. Whereas with Obi-Wan (which also featured music by Williams), executives considered the initial work that Natalie Holt did to be lacking that distinctive Star Wars feel. Williams was also unhappy with how his themes were being adapted, so to appease him William Ross (his longtime collaborator and orchestrator) was hired to handle any quotes of existing Star Wars music. In the end, the final product on Obi-Wan is a clumsy mishmash of Holt’s modern Zimmer-esque cues and Williams’ more traditional fare. At least with Superman, the Williams’ quotes are rendered in the same style as the rest of the score, but it also destroys what makes the theme so special in the first place.

It’s as if Murphy and Fleming recognize that Williams’ theme is iconic, but they haven’t the faintest idea of what it is about the theme that people love. They also don’t do anything interesting with it, they just plop in and slow it down, like they assume that makes it more epic or something. So in execution, they just repeat the same phrase over and over until it loses any emotional resonance. The abbreviated version of the theme lacks all of its original grandeur, so what we’re left with is merely a cheap callback. It reminds me of Elfman’s use of legacy themes in Justice League, where the inclusion of Reeve’s Superman & Keaton’s Batman themes felt weird and discordant. John Ottman’s score for Superman Returns demonstrated that it’s possible to be both imaginative and faithful at the same time. There’s not an ounce of the intelligence or soulfulness of Ottman’s Returns here, and it’s a shame.

Unfortunately, the music is a failure at respecting Williams’ music, nor does it meaningfully develop any new material with enough substance to stand on its own. Lois’ theme (or is it the Daily Planet’s?) is fine enough, but it’s a short riff, nothing more, and pale’s in comparison to Ottman’s original material (like his motif for Lex, or the new love theme).

If the composers on this film were unable to live up to Williams’ legacy, I really wish they had followed in Zimmer’s footsteps and done something completely different. It does seem that the decision to reference the 1978 theme was a mandate from Gunn, so it’s not entirely Murphy and Fleming’s fault, but that’s no excuse for how poorly implemented it was.

I may end up liking the movie (though I have my doubts, as I’ve never fully warmed to Gunn’s style), but it’s a massive bummer that the music is such a misfire. I hope one day we learn what went on behind the scenes, though.

I haven't seen the film yet, but what you've described, and in depth, is pretty much what I fear about the soundtrack.

Right from the start, I had my doubts about using or quoting Williams' theme for multiple reasons (I don't subscribe at all to the Bond or Indiana Jones analogy) and it's an element I've never been able to get over during the film's promotion.
Then, knowing that other composers were added so late in the mix, apparently not to complement but to replace, I definitely began to anticipate a score in that “bombastic and percussive generic blockbuster style” we've been fed since the mid-2000s. There were simply no time to develop something entirely new at this point.

Anyway, I'll soon hear all of this and make my own idea. In any case, you'll help me lower my expectations of the music and maybe I'll be surprised!

Also, regardless of whether one agree with you or not, it was a really good post.
Passionate, detailed : that's the kind of stuff I like to read on boards like here.

 

[Elayis]

I haven't seen the film yet, but what you've described, and in depth, is pretty much what I fear about the soundtrack.

Right from the start, I had my doubts about using or quoting Williams' theme for multiple reasons (I don't subscribe at all to the Bond or Indiana Jones analogy) and it's an element I've never been able to get over during the film's promotion.
Then, knowing that other composers were added so late in the mix, apparently not to complement but to replace, I definitely began to anticipate a score in that “bombastic and percussive generic blockbuster style” we've been fed since the mid-2000s. There were simply no time to develop something entirely new at this point.

Anyway, I'll soon hear all of this and make my own idea. In any case, you'll help me lower my expectations of the music and maybe I'll be surprised!

Also, regardless of whether one agree with you or not, it was a really good post.
Passionate, detailed : that's the kind of stuff I like to read on boards like here.

I appreciate the kind words. Getting to have nuanced conversations is why I still post here. You can't get that on Twitter, or even Reddit.

The sad thing is that I actually like both composers. I'm not a big Tyler Bates fan, so I actually thought Murphy would be an upgrade as far as Gunn collaborators go. His scores for 28 Days Later and Sunshine are among my favorites. And Fleming might not have much of a solo career yet (though Damsel was solid), but his work as an additional composer on Dark Phoenix, WW84 and Dune was top notch.

More than anything the problem seems to have been Gunn's influence. As he's said in interviews, scores are kind of an afterthought for him. When it comes to music he obviously puts a lot of thought into what pop songs he'll use, but it doesn't seem like he understands how integral a film's score can be, or how to properly utilize one in his own movies. A score has the potential to be just as powerful a tool as the script, and if there's not enough care put into the music, it can potentially harm the film.

I have no idea what happened being the scenes. It seemed like Gunn and Murphy had a solid relationship, as Superman's their fifth collaboration. The score was being written before they started shooting, and was even used in the first trailer (which is a rarity). The announcement of Fleming's involvement only happened in April, and was pretty shocking as it came out of nowhere. Typically, when an entirely new composer is hired so late in the game, it's either because of scheduling conflicts or bad test screenings. It even seems like Fleming ended up contributing more music than Murphy, if the soundtrack is anything to go by.

It's just an odd situation all around, and I take no pleasure in saying the music is bad. I don't have an axe to grind here. I'm just a film score fan. I'm one of those weirdos that still prefers having a personal library of mp3s as opposed to streaming, and soundtracks make up close to 90% of my collection.

I have no fondness for Snyder's take on Superman, but at least he got out of Zimmer's way on MoS and BvS, and the results speak for themselves. It's disappointing that Corenswet's version of the character has no musical identity of his own, beyond a cheap knockoff of Reeve's.

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[Gu3ree]

I wonder what John Murphy's original score was for the entire film before David Fleming was added to re-compose the score.

My feelings for the movie aside, i have to say I didn't care that much for the soundtrack. I was disappointed.

I think my only favorite track from the film is "Luthorcorp". I downloaded that track and "The Rift".

I never did like the Superman score we heard from the teaser trailer from the beginning. Not saying it was awful. I just didn't like it that much.

You hear bits of the John Williams theme throughout but it very sloooooow tempos. In "Eye Up Here", just heard the same thing.

In terms of modernizing-if you will-the John Williams Superman theme, I've liked other adapted versions but I can't say the same for John Murphy or David Fleming's take. I remember watching the Superman Returns video game teaser trailer, which gave you the Superman theme in full force. It was epic. It was very fulfilling. It gave you the spirit of Superman. I remember replaying that trailer repeatedly back when it came out. Also that cameo scene in Black Adam with the Williams score applied was good too. Smallville adapted the theme in 3 episodes composed by Mark Snow and it also sounded epic. Different tone, but same original theme.

Speaking of the Superman Returns video game teaser trailer, this is a showcase of what I mean by the theme:



It's hard to describe, but when you listen to the Superman theme by John Williams in the original 1978 movie and Superman II, III and IV (although adapted by other composers) the theme sounded overall more epic and more exciting. In contrast, most of the score in 2025's Superman sounds tonally lighter and more kid-friendly.

You would just rarely hear the Superman theme in the new movie. And it was only some parts of the theme. I hope for the sequel, we hear a more full-length theme.

 

[Sawyer]

 

[Avenging Angel]

Elements of John Williams and notes I recognize are scattered in the score. It's so beautiful to listen to.

Especially "Last Son"

 

[Still Wynning]

Knowing what came out about who did the composing duties for this film, would you like to see David Fleming return for the next Superman related project? And if not, who would you like to see take his place?

I’d like to see Daniel Pemberton or Ludwig Göransson take a crack at this character. They both have hybrid, traditional and experimental composing styles that would work for this version of the character. Ludwig’s score for Sinners had a very earthy, Midwestern but somewhat electric sound I think would very much suit this “punk rock“ take on Superman.

 

[Elayis]

My ideal choice would've been either John Powell or James Newton Howard. They're the modern day successors to John Williams, and have proven capable of adapting existing material into their own original work. Christopher Young would also be a great pick, or Nicholas Britell.

But I also like seeing relatively unknown composers get a chance at a big canvas like this. Joe Kraemer hasn't had much mainstream work since Rogue Nation, and he definitely has the chops for something like Superman. Debbie Wiseman has been writing in TV for decades, but has never done a big Hollywood movie before.

There's also several video game composers that have the potential to really shine on the big screen, people like Olivier Deriviere, Gareth Coker, Jessica Curry or Austin Wintory.

There were just so many better options than what we got, but I wonder if any composer could've delivered something truly great within Gunn's restrictions. Not a single one of his films has a noteworthy or memorable score, and I'm not sure he's capable of fostering a creative environment that is conducive to one.

 

[STARMAN]

Gunn talked about the score during his interview with Josh Horowitz. He said the movie came out lighter than originally intended. Sounded like Murphy's music didn't match the lighter tone. That's why Fleming might have been brought in.

 

[chintai80]

my favorite music in the soundtrack is this one ^.
the beginning somehow reminded me the beginning of "mayonaise" by smashing pumpkins.

that 90s - 2000s rock sound that i can imagine this clark kent would be a fan of.

 

[Elayis]

Gunn talked about the score during his interview with Josh Horowitz. He said the movie came out lighter than originally intended. Sounded like Murphy's music didn't match the lighter tone. That's why Fleming might have been brought in.

Wouldn't it have been easier to ask Murphy to rescore the scenes in question than to toss the music and bring on an entirely new composer? Murphy had been working on the film for over a year. Gunn said that he composed 300 cues before filming had even started. So either Gunn liked the music, but test audiences didn't, or he did a really poor job communicating what his vision was.

Rejecting a composers music and replacing it with someone else's is pretty drastic, and working relationships usually don't survive something like that. I mean, Murphy was essentially fired. I can't think of many people that would continue working with someone after that.

 

[STARMAN]

This was seemingly a more turbulent post-production for Gunn than usual. From replacing one of the editors to replacing the composer. Something went wrong with Murphy's score that led to a patchwork replacement. Murphy was on the red carpet at the world premiere and put on a brave face.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I feel like its possible they truly collaborated to remix the score. They could have still used some of Murphy's score.

 

[Sawyer]

This was seemingly a more turbulent post-production for Gunn than usual. From replacing one of the editors to replacing the composer. Something went wrong with Murphy's score that led to a patchwork replacement. Murphy was on the red carpet at the world premiere and put on a brave face.

Gunn told Josh Horowitz that the final product ended up having a lighter tone than Murphy’s score felt right for.

I’m not complaining tbh. I enjoyed what Murphy brought to the table, especially the Lois and Clark “Walking on Air” bit, but I think Fleming brought the goods too. Their work gelled together IMO.

 

[Lily Adler]

My ideal Superman theme.

 

[Superark]

I liked the score used for the movie, but overall it is nowhere near as strong as the John Ottman's Superman Returns score.

The score does feel a little schizophrenic at times, which is understandable given the multiple composers. Most of it is solid, but when it needs to hit the high moments in the film, it really scores.

I think the trailer score is probably what Murphy had in mind for the movie. That was much grander in scale, but that's theme isn't exactly the one used in the final product.

I hope they lean a little more into the Williams theme in the next film, while keeping original composers mixes throughout.

 

[STARMAN]

Gunn told Josh Horowitz that the final product ended up having a lighter tone than Murphy’s score felt right for.

I’m not complaining tbh. I enjoyed what Murphy brought to the table, especially the Lois and Clark “Walking on Air” bit, but I think Fleming brought the goods too. Their work gelled together IMO.

Yeah. I mentioned the Horowitz interview and lighter tone in an earlier post. Apparently Vieweranon said Murphy was let go and most of his work thrown out. He's usually pretty accurate with those things. Perhaps the tone didn't match and Murphy couldn't provide any worthwhile alternative tracks. Thus Fleming joined in.

 

[Deck Rickard]

The score hit me a lot more on the second viewing. All the remixes of the Williams’ themes were great, obviously. But I really noticed all the new stuff this time more and really fell in love with it.

 

[GreenKToo]

The score was hit and miss for me. They are parts I really liked, and other parts I didn't.
I think someone new, like Howard shore, should be brought on next time

 

[donuts]

The score actually ended up being much more effective and striking that I had feared, considering its complicated making.

Hopefully, the next score will be much more organic, but I must say, I really liked John Murphy's themes, and David Fleming did a respectable job having to reshape the score late in the process.